An uneasy Florida braces for white supremacist speech and protests

Ringo84

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You did not say, and I quote directly, "To protect a worthless Nazi's life"?

Note the context was security to protect someone's life. Listen, I think racism and Naziism is vile and disgusting. But if we label people as "worthless" because they hold vile and disgusting ideologies, are we better than they are?

I think the best way to view the situation--the Biblical way, not my way--is that we are all made in the image of God, and therefore NOT "worthless", but indeed invaluable. Some people go horribly awry in disgusting and evil ways. But that does not make them worthless, does it?

Uh...yeah. Because I'm not a racist who marches down the street under a swastika? Ask me if I give a... hoot about Spencer. Or Kessler. Or any of the other Nazis climbing out of the woodwork.
Ringo
 
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Ringo84

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The best way to handle Spencer is probably just to ignore him. But I'm not going to criticize someone for punching him in the face either.
Ringo
 
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SummerMadness

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The best way to handle Spencer is probably just to ignore him. But I'm not going to criticize someone for punching him in the face either.
Ringo
After reading some of the posts here, I now believe it's the anti-Nazis who are really to blame. They are simply worse than the people shooting and running people over with cars. If we look at the shooters in Florida, the real problem is anti-Nazis shouting at them. They should be simply left alone because they are suffering and we all know murder and attempted murder are the fault of the anti-Nazis.

If people didn't get upset by their demands for a racial purity and their "science" showing other races are inferior, then they wouldn't kill anyone. Whether your badge is white supremacy, white nationalism, neo-Nazism, or neo-Confederate, we have to recognize they are inherently harmless and just expressing another view. Their desire for ethnic cleansing, race war and a return of eugenics are not a danger. Give them what they want and you don't have to worry about them shooting you or hitting you with a car. Heck, they might even skip your house for anti-Semitic or racist graffiti... you know the phrase, Nazis will be Nazis.
 
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camille70

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It's just another view...

3 arrested after shooting following white nationalist speech

Neo-Nazis are no different than ISIL. They have attacked, murdered, committed acts of terrorism in order to fulfill their desire for a nation that is racially "pure." They are only helped by the people attempting to treat their ideology as simply a view like a favorite pizza topping that is on par with any other views.

A little more detail...


White nationalist shot at protesters after Richard Spencer speech in Florida, police say
 
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SummerMadness

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Liza B.

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Uh...yeah. Because I'm not a racist who marches down the street under a swastika? Ask me if I give a... hoot about Spencer. Or Kessler. Or any of the other Nazis climbing out of the woodwork.
Ringo

You can hate what they do and believe. I certainly do. But if you deny their basic humanity, are you better than what they do and believe?

Twelve voices were shouting in anger, and they were all alike. No question, now, what had happened to the faces of the pigs. The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.

--
The conclusion to Animal Farm, George Orwell
 
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SummerMadness

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You can hate what they do and believe. I certainly do. But if you deny their basic humanity, are you better than what they do and believe?

Twelve voices were shouting in anger, and they were all alike. No question, now, what had happened to the faces of the pigs. The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.

--
The conclusion to Animal Farm, George Orwell
You should go take this rhetoric into threads about ISIS, people say much worse about them.
 
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Liza B.

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You should go take this rhetoric into threads about ISIS, people say much worse about them.

You think that believing all people are made in the image of God is "rhetoric"?

I don't, and thank God, it's extremely protective. It is supposed to keep us from becoming ISIS and Nazis. But no one sees that these days, if you believe so-and-so are bad, bad, bad, and can state that in the Strongest Possible Terms, you are Righteous.

Even if you're using the very same terms as your enemy.

Maranatha.
 
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SummerMadness

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You think that believing all people are made in the image of God is "rhetoric"?

I don't, and thank God, it's extremely protective. It is supposed to keep us from becoming ISIS and Nazis. But no one sees that these days, if you believe so-and-so are bad, bad, bad, and can state that in the Strongest Possible Terms, you are Righteous.

Even if you're using the very same terms as your enemy.

Maranatha.
I simply stated take this rhetoric to discussions about ISIS because people say a lot worse about them.
 
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Liza B.

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I simply stated take this rhetoric to discussions about ISIS because people say a lot worse about them.

But I'm not on the thread about ISIS; I'm here. And if your point in opposing Nazis is that people's basic humanity should not be impugned, than you should remain true to that. Don't you think?

IMO, people can be evil, malicious, vile, degrading, horrid, torturous and etc. That does not make them "worthless".
 
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SummerMadness

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But I'm not on the thread about ISIS; I'm here. And if your point in opposing Nazis is that people's basic humanity should not be impugned, than you should remain true to that. Don't you think?

IMO, people can be evil, malicious, vile, degrading, horrid, torturous and etc. That does not make them "worthless".
I never said this was an ISIS thread, I'm simply stating that you should go to such threads and spread the same message because people are saying much worse about them.

Voices of reason like yours are often absent in such discussions. The times I hear appeals to not impugn a murderous terrorists is on threads about white supremacists. I agree with you, I simply wish to see this rhetoric spread elsewhere.
 
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Liza B.

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I never said this was an ISIS thread, I'm simply stating that you should go to such threads and spread the same message because people are saying much worse about them.

Voices of reason like yours are often absent in such discussions. The times I hear appeals to not impugn a murderous terrorists is on threads about white supremacists. I agree with you, I simply wish to see this rhetoric spread elsewhere.

Oh don't get me wrong. I think ISIS are evil, despicable murderers and torturers of children. I think Nazis are a desecration of the best of human tolerance, love and compassion--and the former can apply to them too, depending on if they just spread their vile ideology or actually act on it with violence. Both groups should be punished if their acts are violent, period, and I grow tired of excuse-making for either.

But I do not think individual Nazis or terrorists are "worthless".

I think that believing any human being is "worthless" is the start down a dangerous road. It's about what you believe and do, not the value of you as a human.
 
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SummerMadness

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Oh don't get me wrong. I think ISIS are evil, despicable murderers and torturers of children. I think Nazis are a desecration of the best of human tolerance, love and compassion--and the former can apply to them too, depending on if they just spread their vile ideology or actually act on it with violence. Both groups should be punished if their acts are violent, period, and I grow tired of excuse-making for either.

But I do not think individual Nazis or terrorists are "worthless".

I think that believing any human being is "worthless" is the start down a dangerous road. It's about what you believe and do, not the value of you as a human.
You keep repeating the same thing as if I said I disagreed. How many times do I have to say share this same rhetoric in stories about ISIS also? And there is no need to have two descriptions of Nazis and ISIS, they are both terrorists, it's just that Nazis live in the US.
 
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Liza B.

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You keep repeating the same thing as if I said I disagreed. How many times do I have to say share this same rhetoric in stories about ISIS also? And there is no need to have two descriptions of Nazis and ISIS, they are both terrorists, it's just that Nazis live in the US.

Except that currently, ISIS beheads children and rapes women and blows people up in subways all over the world. Listen, Nazis are vile and have done despicable things, but if you want to rate the two threats in the world right now, in October, 2017, I don't think there's a comparison.
 
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SummerMadness

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Except that currently, ISIS beheads children and rapes women and blows people up in subways all over the world. Listen, Nazis are vile and have done despicable things, but if you want to rate the two threats in the world right now, in October, 2017, I don't think there's a comparison.
Nazis plowed into a group of people earlier this year and recently shot at a crowd of counterprotesters yesterday. Should I start adding the list of murders committed by the likes of Dylan Roof, Wade Michael Page, Frazier Glenn Miller, and other white supremacists?

I have not even included Europe, where Russia alone has 50k-70k, which was about half their population worldwide before 2010. And their numbers have increased since then. Perhaps the reason you fail to see them as a threat is because you're not a target. You have nothing to fear of neo-Nazis killing you at your place of worship. It seems the problem is the same as it's always been, people tend to ignore the monsters that look most like them.

If the neo-Nazis shooters had killed someone yesterday, I wonder if we'd continue to hear this apologism. Yes, they're terrorists too and are a bigger threat because the world is fighting ISIS, but I see a lot of people defending Nazis. People that murder (or attempt it) are not simply holding deplorable views.
 
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Ringo84

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You can hate what they do and believe. I certainly do. But if you deny their basic humanity, are you better than what they do and believe?

Twelve voices were shouting in anger, and they were all alike. No question, now, what had happened to the faces of the pigs. The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.

--
The conclusion to Animal Farm, George Orwell

I just think it's convenient that many of the times that American Nazis are brought up on this forum, regardless of the board, it always devolves into wagging a finger at the people who oppose them. There are longer, more impassioned posts condemning people for wanting to stop Nazis than there are people who want Richard Spencer and his ilk to go away.

Now why is that? How have we become so broken as a country that these people march down our streets under swastikas, and the best we can come up with in reply is bleating about Animal House? Maybe there is something to the idea that political correctness is running amok, but not in the way that it's traditionally understood. The media has made a lot of money pushing milquetoast "the truth is in the middle" and "people from all sides need to be heard, regardless of their views" that we've internalized that. These people are shouting "Jews will not replace us" and running people over with their cars, and we're handwringing and whining over whether we're sufficiently respecting their First Amendment.

Nazis don't win by people like me who want to punch them in their useless faces and run them out of town. They win when their views can enjoy the same respect and attention that mainstream political views receive.

Germany thought it could live with Nazis and contain their nonsense, and look what happened to them.
Ringo
 
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Ringo84

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"One person, 32 year old Heather Heyer, was killed in the attack. Nineteen other were wounded".

The Christian Forums user* sat watching, at rapt attention, as news of the alt-right rally in Charlottesville, VA was covered on the national news. They had never seen anything like it before.

"This is terrible! Someone ought to speak out against this...right now!" they said to themselves.

With a harrumph, the Christian Forums user got up from the couch and fired up their computer. Someone needed to take a clear stance on this hatefulness before it matastasized. It was the Christian thing to do.

Opening up christianforums.com, the user clicked on the link for the News & Current Events board. They were delighted to see that a discussion of the events in Charlottesville were already taking place, but that delight turned to sadness as users said mean things about Jason Kessler and Richard Spencer. Won't someone think of the Nazis?

Clicking the 'Post Reply' button, the user fired off a long, spirited post about how Jason Kessler and the other alt-righters at the rally are people too, and how important it is to respect their feelings and First Amendment rights.

My work here is done. Thought the user proudly, as they hit the 'Post' button and called it a day.


* Genericized to avoid picking on any one person
Ringo
 
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Liza B.

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Nazis plowed into a group of people earlier this year and recently shot at a crowd of counterprotesters yesterday. Should I start adding the list of murders committed by the likes of Dylan Roof, Wade Michael Page, Frazier Glenn Miller, and other white supremacists?

I have not even included Europe, where Russia alone has 50k-70k, which was about half their population worldwide before 2010. And their numbers have increased since then. Perhaps the reason you fail to see them as a threat is because you're not a target. You have nothing to fear of neo-Nazis killing you at your place of worship. It seems the problem is the same as it's always been, people tend to ignore the monsters that look most like them.

If the neo-Nazis shooters had killed someone yesterday, I wonder if we'd continue to hear this apologism. Yes, they're terrorists too and are a bigger threat because the world is fighting ISIS, but I see a lot of people defending Nazis. People that murder (or attempt it) are not simply holding deplorable views.

ISIS is the bigger threat to the world today, and has killed more people than Nazis all together in the last couple of decades. This is fact. It does not say anything about whether Nazis are a great belief system, or Nazis are great people, or how anyone feels about the threat personally.

Facts are facts.
 
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Liza B.

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I just think it's convenient that many of the times that American Nazis are brought up on this forum, regardless of the board, it always devolves into wagging a finger at the people who oppose them. There are longer, more impassioned posts condemning people for wanting to stop Nazis than there are people who want Richard Spencer and his ilk to go away.

Now why is that? How have we become so broken as a country that these people march down our streets under swastikas, and the best we can come up with in reply is bleating about Animal House? Maybe there is something to the idea that political correctness is running amok, but not in the way that it's traditionally understood. The media has made a lot of money pushing milquetoast "the truth is in the middle" and "people from all sides need to be heard, regardless of their views" that we've internalized that. These people are shouting "Jews will not replace us" and running people over with their cars, and we're handwringing and whining over whether we're sufficiently respecting their First Amendment.

Nazis don't win by people like me who want to punch them in their useless faces and run them out of town. They win when their views can enjoy the same respect and attention that mainstream political views receive.

Germany thought it could live with Nazis and contain their nonsense, and look what happened to them.
Ringo

You said they were "worthless" and implied they are undeserving of basic police protection even if they're just protesting.

Saying anything different is not defending Naziism. It's, again, trying to remind people not to become what they loathe. That's all.
 
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