An Honest Request For Insight/Critique

[JaseIsThePlace]

Hey Guys-

My name is Jasen. I'm 38 and living in a major european city, but orig. from the midwest Evangelical Bible belt.

I was raised in a prominent Evangelical family and immersed in that world almost completely until I was around 19. Sunday services, Christian private school, etc. the whole thing. Our church was/is known as a bastion of evangelical thought and my father worked professionally in a media ministry. Essentially, this means that I lived in an almost hermetic Evangelical bubble until High School. I was also bullied and verbally/psychologically abused by the students at the school for years, for no apparent reason other than I wasn't athletic and had dark, curly hair.

Despite the abuse, I was an excellent student and my parents decided to have me attend a local public school which was considered more suitable academically. I immediately immersed myself in this new environment and was determined to make a fresh start. I was placed in all honors classes and soon became fast friends with my fellow nerds. Freshman year was full of firsts: I became close friends with a brilliant muslim, a loud mouth lesbian, the pan-sexual theater kids, the fat nerds, etc. For the first time in my life I had a conversation with an african-american. To my surprise, no one made fun of me, tried to rob me, rape me, or blow me up. Who would have thought that these people were, in fact, people?

One Sunday, we had a "special talk for the boys" in youth group in which one of the group leaders, a young guy from a local christian college who we all looked up to, broke down sobbing in front of us, begging the group and God for a heinous sin. His crime? Masturbating to an elaborate fantasy of his "future wife" pleasuring him within the confines of holy matrimony. While listening to the sobs, I knew that this was not the world I wanted to live in. I love masturbating and always have. How could something so trivial render this guy, who we all looked up to, into a pathetic sobbing mess? I was thinking to myself, if he thinks that is bad, you don't want to know what's in my head... I resolved to find an exist strategy.

By the time I was 19, I was planning on leaving to live with a girlfriend. One night, I broke the news to my parents. I was no longer a christian, in fact, I hated their faith and was going to leave town and live with a girlfriend. They proceeded to cry and scream as I left the house and got in my girlfriends car. Then we drove off.

My parents didn't talk to me for about a year and a half. We eventually called a truce and I finished college, but not before meeting an amazing woman who would later become my wife. However, we rushed into marriage, largely to get my parents off our backs about "living in sin" or something along those lines. Our marriage made it through the next 9 years until it exploded for any number of reasons.

After that, I moved to europe and feell in with an amazing indian woman I met at a club. She showed me love and cariung at the absolute nadir of my life. We began living together and I've been enjoying going to her buddhist on occasion. We have a profound connection I've never felt before.

Sorry for the long intro, I'm, simply being fourthright. Here in europe, I spend my days working in as an automotive designer and at night I am usually in a club dancing to techno. Yes, we consume alcohol and drugs, our "sexualities" as I believe people call it, are generally fluid, as are our identities, etc. Its difficult to describe what we do there, but it seems as we have begun to develop our own culture, our own ethics, values, and forms of communication. Don't be a jerk, respect the people around you, and express yourself to the fullest are the only real "rules" we have in our world. If you aren't having fun, simply go home. I've seen things you wouldn't believe. I have seen the birth and death of universes. I've seen through the eyes of a salad fork. I've designed innumerable dreams and futures.

And you know what? I am truly happy. I am truly content. I'm not scared of death or the future because I've come to realize they they do not exist. Time is at best a sick joke. I've worked hard to free myself from the psycho-spiritual chains I inherited from my family and upbringing. Freedom is totally possible, if you want it. Who told you you were in prison? Turns out, the door to the prison cell has been unlocked the whole time and the guards have left. I have chosen to reject the illusion that I am the flawed creation of a capricious and immature, paternalistic "god" figure. I've come to realize that most of the christian narrative is essentially a long apology for abuse and intolerance. Its the kind of story an abusive father would telkl his children to justify his awful and insane behavior. "Daddy loves you so much, sometimes he loves you so much, he beats the s*hit out of you!" Is this really the world I want to live in? Absolutely not. Is this the world you want to live in? The extent to which we create own own realities that simply reflect our world views and values is astonishing.

So, I suppose, my question is, why is this "wrong"? If I choose a life oriented towards love, respect for others, abundance, creativity, empathy, kindness, etc. what kind of supposedly "loving god" woudl have a problem with that? I simply don't get this christian orldview anymore and I'm genuinely curious what people think.

 

[SeventyOne]

Paul expresses a a similar sentiment in 1 Corinthians 15, stating if the dead are not raised then Christ has not risen and we have no hope and remain in our sins, therefore we should eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we all die. But since Christ has risen, we should not live in our sins any more as we now have hope.

He isn't just a loving God, but He's also one who provides hope. Although they are enjoyable for a time, our sins have already condemned us. How you think you are orienting your life and how that should just simply be 'enough', He's already told is that it isn't enough because we simply aren't capable of rescuing ourselves. That's where our hope comes from God, because He is able to to not only take away our condemnation, but actually make us His own children, through the death and resurrection of Christ alone.

Don't deceive yourself. Your best will never be good enough because the standard is complete and all-time sinless perfection. This is your reality.

 

[zephcom]

Hey Guys-

My name is Jasen. I'm 38 and living in a major european city, but orig. from the midwest Evangelical Bible belt.

I was raised in a prominent Evangelical family and immersed in that world almost completely until I was around 19. Sunday services, Christian private school, etc. the whole thing. Our church was/is known as a bastion of evangelical thought and my father worked professionally in a media ministry. Essentially, this means that I lived in an almost hermetic Evangelical bubble until High School. I was also bullied and verbally/psychologically abused by the students at the school for years, for no apparent reason other than I wasn't athletic and had dark, curly hair.

Despite the abuse, I was an excellent student and my parents decided to have me attend a local public school which was considered more suitable academically. I immediately immersed myself in this new environment and was determined to make a fresh start. I was placed in all honors classes and soon became fast friends with my fellow nerds. Freshman year was full of firsts: I became close friends with a brilliant muslim, a loud mouth lesbian, the pan-sexual theater kids, the fat nerds, etc. For the first time in my life I had a conversation with an african-american. To my surprise, no one made fun of me, tried to rob me, rape me, or blow me up. Who would have thought that these people were, in fact, people?

One Sunday, we had a "special talk for the boys" in youth group in which one of the group leaders, a young guy from a local christian college who we all looked up to, broke down sobbing in front of us, begging the group and God for a heinous sin. His crime? Masturbating to an elaborate fantasy of his "future wife" pleasuring him within the confines of holy matrimony. While listening to the sobs, I knew that this was not the world I wanted to live in. I love masturbating and always have. How could something so trivial render this guy, who we all looked up to, into a pathetic sobbing mess? I was thinking to myself, if he thinks that is bad, you don't want to know what's in my head... I resolved to find an exist strategy.

By the time I was 19, I was planning on leaving to live with a girlfriend. One night, I broke the news to my parents. I was no longer a christian, in fact, I hated their faith and was going to leave town and live with a girlfriend. They proceeded to cry and scream as I left the house and got in my girlfriends car. Then we drove off.

My parents didn't talk to me for about a year and a half. We eventually called a truce and I finished college, but not before meeting an amazing woman who would later become my wife. However, we rushed into marriage, largely to get my parents off our backs about "living in sin" or something along those lines. Our marriage made it through the next 9 years until it exploded for any number of reasons.

After that, I moved to europe and feell in with an amazing indian woman I met at a club. She showed me love and cariung at the absolute nadir of my life. We began living together and I've been enjoying going to her buddhist on occasion. We have a profound connection I've never felt before.

Sorry for the long intro, I'm, simply being fourthright. Here in europe, I spend my days working in as an automotive designer and at night I am usually in a club dancing to techno. Yes, we consume alcohol and drugs, our "sexualities" as I believe people call it, are generally fluid, as are our identities, etc. Its difficult to describe what we do there, but it seems as we have begun to develop our own culture, our own ethics, values, and forms of communication. Don't be a jerk, respect the people around you, and express yourself to the fullest are the only real "rules" we have in our world. If you aren't having fun, simply go home. I've seen things you wouldn't believe. I have seen the birth and death of universes. I've seen through the eyes of a salad fork. I've designed innumerable dreams and futures.

And you know what? I am truly happy. I am truly content. I'm not scared of death or the future because I've come to realize they they do not exist. Time is at best a sick joke. I've worked hard to free myself from the psycho-spiritual chains I inherited from my family and upbringing. Freedom is totally possible, if you want it. Who told you you were in prison? Turns out, the door to the prison cell has been unlocked the whole time and the guards have left. I have chosen to reject the illusion that I am the flawed creation of a capricious and immature, paternalistic "god" figure. I've come to realize that most of the christian narrative is essentially a long apology for abuse and intolerance. Its the kind of story an abusive father would telkl his children to justify his awful and insane behavior. "Daddy loves you so much, sometimes he loves you so much, he beats the s*hit out of you!" Is this really the world I want to live in? Absolutely not. Is this the world you want to live in? The extent to which we create own own realities that simply reflect our world views and values is astonishing.

So, I suppose, my question is, why is this "wrong"? If I choose a life oriented towards love, respect for others, abundance, creativity, empathy, kindness, etc. what kind of supposedly "loving god" woudl have a problem with that? I simply don't get this christian orldview anymore and I'm genuinely curious what people think.

It isn't 'wrong' to live a life oriented towards love. How one chooses to live their life is never 'wrong' or 'right'. It will be either 'legal' or 'illegal' which is based on the laws of the land in which one lives. But right or wrong is simply the methods religions use to ensure the cash flow remains steady.

 

[bèlla]

.

 

[PloverWing]

I'm glad you're finding happiness in your relationships, your job, and your new location. I'm also glad you're getting to explore the world that lies outside the bubble you were raised in.

Since you asked for advice (or at least for insight), I'll say this: There are more varieties of Christianity than the one you experienced in your midwestern-Evangelical bubble. While you're exploring, explore these varieties of Christianity too. Even if you don't return to Christianity, it's useful to see the whole range of possibilities within the Christian faith before you decide to walk away from it.

I also was educated in an Evangelical private Christian school for K-12, and I attended a midwestern Evangelical college. I now work at a secular state university, so I also had to come out of the bubble into the wider world. My circle of friends includes some Muslims, a lesbian couple, a pansexual theater person, some nerds of varying body shapes, and some African-Americans. The world is very wide, and I am glad to know all these people. I can't speak to the kinds of enlightenment you've experienced with drugs -- drugs aren't my thing -- but much of the rest of what you describe can be consistent with Christian faith and practice: "love, respect for others, abundance, creativity, empathy, kindness" -- all of these things are part of a Christian life that is well-lived.

So, keep exploring. Don't stop the exploration too early.

[ Note: I'm over 40, so I'm not technically part of the "Terrific Thirties". I'll withdraw from the conversation if that's a problem. ]

 

[Halbhh]

Hey Jasen, I'm Hal, and I really was glad to see your post, and it is like my own experience in some key ways (not all, but several), and I can empathize from first-hand personal experience instead of only guessing.

I escaped inside my own mind as a teen, before I was old enough to leave home, so I had to pretend for a few years first, before I was out of the house, and I really get what you are saying.

I read fully through all of your post. Our experiences really do have a lot in common.

For me the wonderful freedom included being able to dance in a free dance space where everything was very fluid -- "Sweat Your Prayers" (instead of going to an fake church thing), which we renamed to "Body Choir" -- it was a lot of fun, and these parts of your own wording is excellent to describe the atmosphere there I experienced:

"...develop our own culture, our own ethics, values, and forms of communication. Don't be a jerk, respect the people around you, and express yourself to the fullest are the only real "rules" we have in our world. If you aren't having fun, simply go home. I've seen things you wouldn't believe. ..."

I totally recognized that, since I went to Body Choir twice a week, about 3 and a half hours a week, for about 10 years. A lot of sweat and experimenting and fun!

You ask: "I suppose, my question is, why is this "wrong"?

Well, at least for what I experienced in Body Choir, my answer today is nothing is wrong about dancing like that at all. Not even one thing, not even slightly. Not saying that everyone there was only good always -- not what I'm saying -- but instead that simply the wonderful freedom and dancing and self expression were just good, and I see it that way now, too.

I read all of your post fully, so these excerpts are just for me to remember what I'd like to say some more about --

prominent Evangelical family and immersed in that world almost completely until I was around 19. Sunday
services, Christian private school

When I read "prominent" a little red flag went up for me -- the old saying "power corrupts" often seems to happen. Social power tends to lead to some abuses, at least subtle ones, often. Anyway, that was a flag for me.

Another thing that struck me here was "immersed" together with "Christians private school". While a private school needn't be bad necessarily, it seems what I hear from people locally is a lot of reports of conflicts and/or kids being bullied at such schools.

So that is very credible what you wrote later. Bullying happens at most schools I think but in private schools it seems it can be more pronounced for some reason -- maybe because they think they are righteous, and that belief blinds them to their wrongs, but this is only a guess, and it surely would apply only to some and not to others.

My parents didn't talk to me for about a year and a half.

This stood out sharply. Here is a helpful contrast --

“Not long after that, the younger son got together all he had, set off for a distant country and there [went about] wild living. ...
...
[later] “...he said,"I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I [was wrong to entirely reject]...you. ...So he got up and went to his father.

“But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him."


That's our model for what we are to be as parents -- forgiving, and not holding anger (holding onto anger, not forgiving, are very far from being Christian actually).

Now, many parents fall very far short of being Christian in their actions, but after some time passes, they should already be forgiving (forgiving and loving don't mean they have to agree about all things, but just be doing the basic things we are told to do)...

I've worked hard to free myself from the psycho-spiritual chains I inherited from my family and upbringing. Freedom is totally possible, if you want it.

I was very encouraged to see this! To find what is good, you have to reject the things that were false, and at first that will be rejecting everything, until later you sift through to re-find the good parts, separating them from the bad parts.

I have chosen to reject the illusion that I am the flawed creation of a capricious and immature, paternalistic "god" figure.

My own experience was in order to find the transcendent, ineffable, sublime goodness we ultimately seek, the actual face of God, the real, the sublime which cannot be pinned down (put in a box), the true God, we first have to let go of all the prideful stuff in churches -- all the extra inventions of men, the invented versions of 'God' too many of us grew up around, which too often were 5% about God, and 95% stuff made up in a culture for cultural prejudices/preferences, only "traditions of men", as Jesus said.

As Jesus said --

"You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:

8 “ ‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
9 They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules.’ ”
(Matthew ch 15)

and

"You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.”
9 And he continued, “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions!"
(Mark ch 7)

People don't realize this is a normal and constant danger to churches, all the time, every century, every nation, always. In fact, it's always going to happen in every city, and it's only by seeking God that we can even find Him, the way Jesus said (in Matthew ch 7:7-12).

To even find God, I needed to leave those churches of my youth.

So, I suppose, my question is, why is this "wrong"? If I choose a life oriented towards love, respect for others, abundance, creativity, empathy, kindness, etc. what kind of supposedly "loving god" woudl have a problem with that? I simply don't get this christian orldview anymore and I'm genuinely curious what people think.

Ah, the 'christian' worldview that is most prominent in the U.S. today isn't aligned to Jesus's words, so it's 'christian' in name only see.

What is "Christian" in spirit and in truth then?

Things like this:

"...forgive your brother or sister from your heart."

and

43 “You have heard it said, ‘Love your neighbor’ and hate your enemy.' 44 But I say, love your enemies! Pray for those who persecute you! 45 In that way, you will be acting as true children of your Father in heaven. For he gives his sunlight to both the evil and the good, and he sends rain on the just and the unjust alike. 46 If you love only those who love you, what reward is there for that? Even corrupt tax collectors do that much. 47 If you are kind only to your friends, how are you different from anyone else? ..."

 

[JaseIsThePlace]

Hey Team-

I just checked in on the responses, and I must say, I'm impressed with your depth on many of these issues. I'm currently at work (lol), but I'd like to keep the conversation rolling. Will write more ASAP.

And thank you all again for your insight and candor.

-J