An Atheist's Critique of … some other current Atheists

[bhsmte]

I don't disagree with you. I was anti-Christian for most of my life, and so am very familiar with the propaganda campaign that has been waged against the religion for the past couple of centuries. Much of what I believed about it proved to be false, as did many of the objections that I've seen leveled at theism in general. I would like to think that I'm not susceptible to social pressure either, but I do have a tendency towards counter-culturalism, and the fact of the matter is that Christianity is actually very counter-cultural for me. And so I'll consider it from the sidelines for a while longer.

The problem is that you haven't justified any of your beliefs simply by stating that they've changed as you acquired more information. Asserting that you are less susceptible to social pressures doesn't necessarily make it true. If you genuinely think that all positions are equally justified, as long as they've been examined, this is not a problem, but you often seem to insinuate that some positions are more justified than others.

I have given my personal justification for why i got to a point, where i could not longer reconcile the christian story as credible, countless times on this forum.

 

[Silmarien]

Just so I'm clear, you consider all positions justified as long as they've been examined?

Eh, I would question the notion of justification in general because that's where a lot of unexamined value judgments about what standards need to be met for a belief to be acceptable first creep in.

I think the various positions do have different strengths and weaknesses, though, and how you weigh those is ultimately going to determine where you fall on the spectrum. I don't like how arguments over who is and isn't justified in their beliefs get conflated with the separate issue of which position is ultimately stronger, since they're two different questions.

I don't have a problem with people holding positions I disagree with as long as they don't start dogmatically insisting that it's true because science/the Bible/the Church says so.

 

[Silmarien]

I have given my personal justification for why i got to a point, where i could not longer reconcile the christian story as credible, countless times on this forum.

Yeah, but your position makes no sense. Either everyone is ultimately at the mercy of psychological factors, in which case your beliefs are no more or less justified than anyone else's, or you need to stop citing personal psychology as the deciding factor in why people believe what they do. Because I'm sure your reasons for rejecting Christianity could be psychoanalyzed as well.

If we actually care about who's right and who's wrong, we should look at what they say, not focus on what their beliefs might say about them. The second option has its place too, sure, but it shouldn't swallow up the first entirely.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I have no idea who Michael Polanyi is or what it tells me about you.

Should I?

Not specifically, other than that those who know about Polanyi would take it as an indication that I prefer a more nuanced, yet still scientifically mainstream, understanding of reality ... ...and I wouldn't say that he only qualifies as "just another" modern day philosopher. In fact, I'd probably place him just a couple of steps below those magnificent minds like Einstein and Bohr, and maybe a step below those like Sagan or Hawking, but a step or two above someone like William Lane Craig [and I still rate Craig fairly high, the main difference being that Craig is an apologist, and Polanyi ... was not, at least not in a direct sense.]

 

[bhsmte]

Yeah, but your position makes no sense. Either everyone is ultimately at the mercy of psychological factors, in which case your beliefs are no more or less justified than anyone else's, or you need to stop citing personal psychology as the deciding factor in why people believe what they do. Because I'm sure your reasons for rejecting Christianity could be psychoanalyzed as well.

If we actually care about who's right and who's wrong, we should look at what they say, not focus on what their beliefs might say about them. The second option has its place too, sure, but it shouldn't swallow up the first entirely.

We are all heavily influenced by our personal psyche, whether it be a believer of whatever faith or non believer. We all filter information based on this same psyche and that plays a large role in what comes out the other end. Many variables impact how our psyche develops through growing years and adulthood as well as genetics. Life experiences can also alter how we filter information as we experience life.

The psychology of belief, is a topic i find quite interesting.

 

[Silmarien]

We are all heavily influenced by our personal psyche, whether it be a believer of whatever faith or non believer. We all filter information based on this same psyche and that plays a large role in what comes out the other end. Many variables impact how our psyche develops through growing years and adulthood as well as genetics. Life experiences can also alter how we filter information as we experience life.

The psychology of belief, is a topic i find quite interesting.

Yes, and the way you've been influenced by your personal psyche to fixate on this one particular aspect of belief at the expense of everything else is positively fascinating as well from a psychological perspective! I wonder what variables have made you find this issue so much more interesting than anything else.

 

[bhsmte]

Yes, and the way you've been influenced by your personal psyche to fixate on this one particular aspect of belief at the expense of everything else is positively fascinating as well from a psychological perspective! I wonder what variables have made you find this issue so much more interesting than anything else.

Personal experience and education are big factors, along with likely more subtle variables. I am not smart enough to provide them all.

The thing is, all of those things you label; "everything else", are filtered through our own psyche.

 

[Silmarien]

Personal experience and education are big factors, along with likely more subtle variables. I am not smart enough to provide them all.

The thing is, all of those things you label; "everything else", are filtered through our own psyche.

But why should anyone listen to you? By your own admission, your opinion on the matter is merely the result of your own personal psyche, so there's no reason to take anything you say as fact. You think that "everything else" is filtered through the psyche because you have psychological reasons for thinking this is the case.

Either our psychological conditioning is not so extreme as to make the very concept of knowledge impossible, in which case you are seriously overstating your position, or all positions are equally the result of psychological factors, including the position that all positions are the result of psychological factors.

Not that I don't agree that there are psychological and social factors at work. There absolutely are. I would consider modern atheism to be a sociohistorical phenomenon, but there are consequences to focusing exclusively on psychological factors.

 

[bhsmte]

But why should anyone listen to you? By your own admission, your opinion on the matter is merely the result of your own personal psyche, so there's no reason to take anything you say as fact. You think that "everything else" is filtered through the psyche because you have psychological reasons for thinking this is the case.

Either our psychological conditioning is not so extreme as to make the very concept of knowledge impossible, in which case you are seriously overstating your position, or all positions are equally the result of psychological factors, including the position that all positions are the result of psychological factors.

Not that I don't agree that there are psychological and social factors at work. There absolutely are. I would consider modern atheism to be a sociohistorical phenomenon, but there are consequences to focusing exclusively on psychological factors.

I'm not claiming anyone should agree with me. Everyone comes to conclusions, based on their own unique circumstances.

 

[Silmarien]

I'm not claiming anyone should agree with me. Everyone comes to conclusions, based on their own unique circumstances.

Is that a conclusion that you came to based on your own unique circumstances?

 

[bhsmte]

Is that a conclusion that you came to based on your own unique circumstances?

You bet, as everyone does.

 

[Silmarien]

You bet, as everyone does.

How do you know everyone does? All you "know" is what your personal experiences have made you believe.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

You bet, as everyone does.

So, would you say that in a way, and to some extent, you agree with the atheist (GMS) in the OP video?

 

[ToddNotTodd]

It also could turn out that there really is no Evil or Sinful Elite(s) ruling the world, who wants to indoctrinate us with their libertine value system and to finally tear Christianity asunder.

You mean the lizard people from Ragnar 6? It's probably not a good idea to mention them in print, lest you end up as the target of their unending wrath...

 

[bhsmte]

How do you know everyone does? All you "know" is what your personal experiences have made you believe.

Let me put it this way; I can't tell you with 100% certainty whether the sun will come up tomorrow, but I do give it a very high probability.

In regards to how people reach the positions they reach, are highly likely to be related to their personal experiences, education, genetics and how all of this creates their own unique filter, to process information.

I guess there could be some higher force, that magically interjects thoughts in someone's head that impacts how they arrive at positions, but I personally don't see any reason to believe that is the case.

 

[bhsmte]

So, would you say that in a way, and to some extent, you agree with the atheist (GMS) in the OP video?

Didn't watch the video yet.

 

[bhsmte]

So, would you say that in a way, and to some extent, you agree with the atheist (GMS) in the OP video?

I just watched about the first 3 1/2 minutes of the video and I can't disagree with anything the dude says.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I just watched about the first 3 1/2 minutes of the video and I can't disagree with anything the dude says.

Ok. Thanks for watching at least that much and sharing your viewpoint on it, bhsmte. (No, seriously, thanks!)

 

[Silmarien]

Let me put it this way; I can't tell you with 100% certainty whether the sun will come up tomorrow, but I do give it a very high probability.

In regards to how people reach the positions they reach, are highly likely to be related to their personal experiences, education, genetics and how all of this creates their own unique filter, to process information.

I guess there could be some higher force, that magically interjects thoughts in someone's head that impacts how they arrive at positions, but I personally don't see any reason to believe that is the case.

Apparently because psychological factors prevent you from believing that this is the case. Just like psychological factors lead you to believe that people's experiences, education, and so forth contribute to a unique filter.

Do you really not see the problem here? Though I suppose maybe your personal psychology is getting in the way.

 

[bhsmte]

Apparently because psychological factors prevent you from believing that this is the case. Just like psychological factors lead you to believe that people's experiences, education, and so forth contribute to a unique filter.

Do you really not see the problem here? Though I suppose maybe your personal psychology is getting in the way.

Anything is possible. I tend to lean towards, what is most probable, based on current knowledge of the human mind and psychology.