An analysis of the Jephthah situation

[Nihilist Virus]

Judges 11:29-40 says,

29Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah, and he passed over Gilead, and Manasseh, and passed over Mizpeh of Gilead, and from Mizpeh of Gilead he passed over unto the children of Ammon.

30And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the LORD, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands,

31Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD'S, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering.

32So Jephthah passed over unto the children of Ammon to fight against them; and the LORD delivered them into his hands.

33And he smote them from Aroer, even till thou come to Minnith, even twenty cities, and unto the plain of the vineyards, with a very great slaughter. Thus the children of Ammon were subdued before the children of Israel.

34And Jephthah came to Mizpeh unto his house, and, behold, his daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and with dances: and she was his only child; beside her he had neither son nor daughter.

35And it came to pass, when he saw her, that he rent his clothes, and said, Alas, my daughter! thou hast brought me very low, and thou art one of them that trouble me: for I have opened my mouth unto the LORD, and I cannot go back.

36And she said unto him, My father, if thou hast opened thy mouth unto the LORD, do to me according to that which hath proceeded out of thy mouth; forasmuch as the LORD hath taken vengeance for thee of thine enemies, even of the children of Ammon.

37And she said unto her father, Let this thing be done for me: let me alone two months, that I may go up and down upon the mountains, and bewail my virginity, I and my fellows.

38And he said, Go. And he sent her away for two months: and she went with her companions, and bewailed her virginity upon the mountains.

39And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed: and she knew no man. And it was a custom in Israel,

40That the daughters of Israel went yearly to lament the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite four days in a year.



An objective reading


Observe that verse 29 says that the spirit of the Lord came upon Jephthah, then immediately afterward in verse 30 Jephthah makes his vow. This suggests that God influenced Jephthah in making the vow.

It is then said in verse 32 that God delivered Jephthah's enemies into his hands, indicating that God accepted Jephthah's terms (which, as I said, were possibly influenced by God to begin with).

In verse 36, Jephthah's daughter gives no indication that her father's vow is invalid and that it should be nullified. In fact, she says that he must honor his vow.

Finally, in verse 39, Jephthah fulfills his vow. There is no indication that God is either pleased or displeased with this.


An apologist's reading (and what they overlook)


Generally, apologists ignore the points I raised about verses 29, 30, & 32 and simply defer to the last point I made (that God gives no indication that he is either pleased or displeased with the sacrifice).

While the Bible does not explicitly forbid every kind of human sacrifice (and how could it if it promotes Christ's sacrifice?), Deuteronomy 18:10 forbids the exact thing that Jephthah did: a burnt offering of one's son or daughter (note that verse 31 has Jephthah specifying that he will give a burnt offering).

Does Jephthah not know this? Does Jephthah's daughter not know this? Do none of her friends know this (note that she retreats with friends to the mountains in verses 37-38)? Are there no neighbors who discover Jephthah's plans in the two-month interim who know this? Why did God seem to arrange all of this if it is in direct violation of his edicts?

Also, why does the daughter's self-preservation instinct never prompt her actions? Why does she not seek the elders of her village? Do her actions seem reasonable? Is she supposed to honor her father and allow her father to commit this abominable act, or is she supposed to honor God above her father and rebuke him for this? If she is obeying her father with pure, yet ignorant, intentions, and if God does not want this to occur, why doesn't he make it clear to her, to Jephthah, or to both? It's unlikely that she had access to scriptures, so shouldn't God clarify the situation if a girl is obeying him incorrectly through no fault of her own?

Lastly, why does the author of Hebrews give Jephthah a "shout out" in the "Faith Hall of Fame"? Jephthah is casually mentioned in chapter 11 verse 32.


My reading


Many scholars view the book of Judges as a propaganda piece to push the idea of a king upon Israel. A common saying throughout the book is, "In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes."

I think the book of Judges is literally true about little to nothing. Judges 19 is a darker retelling of the story about Lot (Lot offered his daughters to a mob of rapists but did not actually give them; in Judges 19, the priest actually does give his concubine to a mob of rapists who raped her to death). The story of Jephthah is a darker retelling of the story about Abraham and Isaac: while Abraham, of course, did not end up killing his own son, Jephthah actually did kill his own daughter.

The reader was supposed to interpret this and connect the dots for himself: without a king, the nation of Israel heads into darkness.

 

[Radrook]

Human sacrifice was prohibited under the Mosaic Law.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Human sacrifice was prohibited under the Mosaic Law.

Source?

Also, doesn't that nullify Christ's sacrifice?

 

[Radrook]

Source?

Also, doesn't that nullify Christ's sacrifice?

The Mosaic Law told Israel not to offer human burnt sacrifices as their neighbors the Canaanites did because it was a detestable thing in his eyes.

Deuteronomy 18:10 ESV
There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering,....

Jeremiah 7:31 ESV
And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind.

Deuteronomy 12:31 ESV
You shall not worship the Lord your God in that way, for every abominable thing that the Lord hates they have done for their gods, for they even burn their sons and their daughters in the fire to their gods.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jesus sacrificed his own life willingly for our sins.
Those children were being sacrificed by their parents for no good reason whatsoever and against the explicit prohibition not to do so.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Source?

Also, doesn't that nullify Christ's sacrifice?

Maybe it should be said that it is the sacrifice of those who are merely human that is prohibited. However, a Son of a God is a different order of human being; and since the O.T. is chock-full of typological examples, we might even take Jepthah's daughter as one such example which prefigures the voluntary sacrifice of Jesus Himself. She didn't deserve it, and neither did Jesus deserve it, but God allowed it anyway, even though He didn't approve of it.

Or not. But, then again, we can also see Jesus' crucifixion as the implementation of the spiritual death penalty implied in the Old Covenant Law rather than "just" a sacrifice.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

The Mosaic Law told Israel not to offer human burnt sacrifices as their neighbors the Canaanites did because it was a detestable thing in his eyes.

Deuteronomy 18:10 ESV
There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering,....

Jeremiah 7:31 ESV
And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind.

Deuteronomy 12:31 ESV
You shall not worship the Lord your God in that way, for every abominable thing that the Lord hates they have done for their gods, for they even burn their sons and their daughters in the fire to their gods.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jesus sacrificed his own life willingly for our sins.
Those children were being sacrificed by their parents for no good reason whatsoever and against the explicit prohibition not to do so.

I get the sense you did not read what I have to say.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Judges 11:29-40 says,

29Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah, and he passed over Gilead, and Manasseh, and passed over Mizpeh of Gilead, and from Mizpeh of Gilead he passed over unto the children of Ammon.

30And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the LORD, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands,

31Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD'S, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering.

32So Jephthah passed over unto the children of Ammon to fight against them; and the LORD delivered them into his hands.

33And he smote them from Aroer, even till thou come to Minnith, even twenty cities, and unto the plain of the vineyards, with a very great slaughter. Thus the children of Ammon were subdued before the children of Israel.

34And Jephthah came to Mizpeh unto his house, and, behold, his daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and with dances: and she was his only child; beside her he had neither son nor daughter.

35And it came to pass, when he saw her, that he rent his clothes, and said, Alas, my daughter! thou hast brought me very low, and thou art one of them that trouble me: for I have opened my mouth unto the LORD, and I cannot go back.

36And she said unto him, My father, if thou hast opened thy mouth unto the LORD, do to me according to that which hath proceeded out of thy mouth; forasmuch as the LORD hath taken vengeance for thee of thine enemies, even of the children of Ammon.

37And she said unto her father, Let this thing be done for me: let me alone two months, that I may go up and down upon the mountains, and bewail my virginity, I and my fellows.

38And he said, Go. And he sent her away for two months: and she went with her companions, and bewailed her virginity upon the mountains.

39And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed: and she knew no man. And it was a custom in Israel,

40That the daughters of Israel went yearly to lament the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite four days in a year.



An objective reading


Observe that verse 29 says that the spirit of the Lord came upon Jephthah, then immediately afterward in verse 30 Jephthah makes his vow. This suggests that God influenced Jephthah in making the vow.

It is then said in verse 32 that God delivered Jephthah's enemies into his hands, indicating that God accepted Jephthah's terms (which, as I said, were possibly influenced by God to begin with).

In verse 36, Jephthah's daughter gives no indication that her father's vow is invalid and that it should be nullified. In fact, she says that he must honor his vow.

Finally, in verse 39, Jephthah fulfills his vow. There is no indication that God is either pleased or displeased with this.


An apologist's reading (and what they overlook)


Generally, apologists ignore the points I raised about verses 29, 30, & 32 and simply defer to the last point I made (that God gives no indication that he is either pleased or displeased with the sacrifice).

While the Bible does not explicitly forbid every kind of human sacrifice (and how could it if it promotes Christ's sacrifice?), Deuteronomy 18:10 forbids the exact thing that Jephthah did: a burnt offering of one's son or daughter (note that verse 31 has Jephthah specifying that he will give a burnt offering).

Does Jephthah not know this? Does Jephthah's daughter not know this? Do none of her friends know this (note that she retreats with friends to the mountains in verses 37-38)? Are there no neighbors who discover Jephthah's plans in the two-month interim who know this? Why did God seem to arrange all of this if it is in direct violation of his edicts?

Also, why does the daughter's self-preservation instinct never prompt her actions? Why does she not seek the elders of her village? Do her actions seem reasonable? Is she supposed to honor her father and allow her father to commit this abominable act, or is she supposed to honor God above her father and rebuke him for this? If she is obeying her father with pure, yet ignorant, intentions, and if God does not want this to occur, why doesn't he make it clear to her, to Jephthah, or to both? It's unlikely that she had access to scriptures, so shouldn't God clarify the situation if a girl is obeying him incorrectly through no fault of her own?

Lastly, why does the author of Hebrews give Jephthah a "shout out" in the "Faith Hall of Fame"? Jephthah is casually mentioned in chapter 11 verse 32.


My reading


Many scholars view the book of Judges as a propaganda piece to push the idea of a king upon Israel. A common saying throughout the book is, "In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes."

I think the book of Judges is literally true about little to nothing. Judges 19 is a darker retelling of the story about Lot (Lot offered his daughters to a mob of rapists but did not actually give them; in Judges 19, the priest actually does give his concubine to a mob of rapists who raped her to death). The story of Jephthah is a darker retelling of the story about Abraham and Isaac: while Abraham, of course, did not end up killing his own son, Jephthah actually did kill his own daughter.

The reader was supposed to interpret this and connect the dots for himself: without a king, the nation of Israel heads into darkness.

Here's my response:

As I can show you, despite the fact that Jephtha kept his horrid promise, I don't think the writer of the book of Judges implies that God favored Jeptha's so doing.

Here's why I say this:

1) In Josephus' book, The Antiquities of the Jews (7.10), the comment is made that, "...when that time was over, he [Jephtha] sacrificed his daughter as a burnt offering, offering such an oblation as was neither conformable to the law nor acceptable to God, not weighing with himself what opinion the hearers would have of such a practice."

So, from what Josephus interprets of this passage in the book of Judges, Jephtha did indeed sacrifice his daughter, but his actions were not something esteemed by God or the Hebrew community. It's wasn't something the Israelites applauded him for.

2) I suggest that we also need to interpret the significance of the Jephtha passage by considering the overall context in which the passage lies, which in this case is the entire book of Judges. It is also contextualized by its relation to the Law of Moses (as Josephus also alluded to.)

What we find in the book of Judges is a further condemnation of Jeptha's actions by its referral to the fact that the people of Israel at that time had some serious moral problems and a strong tendency to flout the keeping of the Law. These moral problems and intergenerational disobedience are why they suffered under recurring oppression from surrounding peoples. They would sin, God would punish them. They would then cry out for deliverance, and God would raise up successive Judges to free them; some of the judges were good, and some of them were prone to their own sinful proclivities as well.

As you've already pointed out, one very significant thing we find in the book of Judges is the last statement made in the book, a statement which is actually a second iteration of the same premise: "In those days there was no king in Israel; everyone did what was right in his own eyes" (Judges 21:25); the same phrase is also found at Judges 17:6, and alluded to in Judges 18:1 and Judges 19:1, as well as implied in a substantial way early on in Judges, chapter 2. The point being is that the people of Israel of that time were a 'stubborn people' and did things not befitting the Law of Moses, and they made their situation bad by coming under God's displeasure.

3) We also need to consider the context which the Law provides in the Pentateuch, that Israel was to "...diligently heed the voice of the Lord your God and do what is right in His sight..." (Exodus 15:26), and then again many things are said which reflect this sentiment throughout the Pentateuch, particularly in Deuteronomy 18:8, which states "You shall not at all do as we are doing here today--every man doing whatever is right in his own eyes--"...all of which obviously sets the contrast and contextualization for the book of Judges.

So, if you will allow (and you probably won't), the Bible actually implies that Jephtha didn't do "right" when he sacrificed his daughter (if he truly did that in the first place.)

I'm not saying this so you'll change your mind as to whether the bible is a good or not, but my point is made to simply to insist that, even though we may not like the fact that God allowed Jephtha to sacrifice his daughter (or displace her to a 'nunnery' of sorts), the act was by no means authorized by God. He wasn't pleased in the least.

In fact, it may be this act of Jephtha that partially forms the backdrop for Jesus when He says that we should not resort to using oaths made to God, but rather to let our yes be yes and our no,no. (Matthew 5:33-37)

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

 

[Radrook]

I get the sense you did not read what I have to say.

I read the request for citations and the comment about Jesus. I think I responded to both. But if I missed something please point it out.

BTW
Not everyone agrees that Jepthah's daughter was offered up as a human burnt offering for the following reasons.

Four reasons why some believe that Jephthah’s daughter was not offered as a burnt sacrifice but was dedicated herself in the service of God to a life of chastity and celibacy..



1. Nowhere is Jepthah condemned. If he had actually sacrificed his daughter and violated the Mosaic Law then he would have been condemned.

2. He was allowed to serve as a judge of Israel for six more years. Again, the people of Israel would not have allowed it had he performed pagan ritual considered an abomination.

3. She laments her virginity and not the end of her life.

4. The young women praise her for what she did. Again such praise would not have been offered had she actually volunteered to be offered as a burnt sacrifice.

5. Also verse 39 tells us that after Jephthah had performed his "burnt offering" "she knew not a man." Such wording would be inane and heartless if she had died but is understandable if she was devoted to service at the tabernacle. Other examples of such women in Scripture are found in ; Ex 28:8; 1 Sam 2:22; and Luke 2:36,37.

 

[Radrook]

Judges 11:29-40 says,

29Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah, and he passed over Gilead, and Manasseh, and passed over Mizpeh of Gilead, and from Mizpeh of Gilead he passed over unto the children of Ammon.

30And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the LORD, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands,

31Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD'S, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering.

32So Jephthah passed over unto the children of Ammon to fight against them; and the LORD delivered them into his hands.

33And he smote them from Aroer, even till thou come to Minnith, even twenty cities, and unto the plain of the vineyards, with a very great slaughter. Thus the children of Ammon were subdued before the children of Israel.

34And Jephthah came to Mizpeh unto his house, and, behold, his daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and with dances: and she was his only child; beside her he had neither son nor daughter.

35And it came to pass, when he saw her, that he rent his clothes, and said, Alas, my daughter! thou hast brought me very low, and thou art one of them that trouble me: for I have opened my mouth unto the LORD, and I cannot go back.

36And she said unto him, My father, if thou hast opened thy mouth unto the LORD, do to me according to that which hath proceeded out of thy mouth; forasmuch as the LORD hath taken vengeance for thee of thine enemies, even of the children of Ammon.

37And she said unto her father, Let this thing be done for me: let me alone two months, that I may go up and down upon the mountains, and bewail my virginity, I and my fellows.

38And he said, Go. And he sent her away for two months: and she went with her companions, and bewailed her virginity upon the mountains.

39And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed: and she knew no man. And it was a custom in Israel,

40That the daughters of Israel went yearly to lament the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite four days in a year.



An objective reading


Observe that verse 29 says that the spirit of the Lord came upon Jephthah, then immediately afterward in verse 30 Jephthah makes his vow. This suggests that God influenced Jephthah in making the vow.

It is then said in verse 32 that God delivered Jephthah's enemies into his hands, indicating that God accepted Jephthah's terms (which, as I said, were possibly influenced by God to begin with).

In verse 36, Jephthah's daughter gives no indication that her father's vow is invalid and that it should be nullified. In fact, she says that he must honor his vow.

Finally, in verse 39, Jephthah fulfills his vow. There is no indication that God is either pleased or displeased with this.


An apologist's reading (and what they overlook)


Generally, apologists ignore the points I raised about verses 29, 30, & 32 and simply defer to the last point I made (that God gives no indication that he is either pleased or displeased with the sacrifice).

While the Bible does not explicitly forbid every kind of human sacrifice (and how could it if it promotes Christ's sacrifice?), Deuteronomy 18:10 forbids the exact thing that Jephthah did: a burnt offering of one's son or daughter (note that verse 31 has Jephthah specifying that he will give a burnt offering).

Does Jephthah not know this? Does Jephthah's daughter not know this? Do none of her friends know this (note that she retreats with friends to the mountains in verses 37-38)? Are there no neighbors who discover Jephthah's plans in the two-month interim who know this? Why did God seem to arrange all of this if it is in direct violation of his edicts?

Also, why does the daughter's self-preservation instinct never prompt her actions? Why does she not seek the elders of her village? Do her actions seem reasonable? Is she supposed to honor her father and allow her father to commit this abominable act, or is she supposed to honor God above her father and rebuke him for this? If she is obeying her father with pure, yet ignorant, intentions, and if God does not want this to occur, why doesn't he make it clear to her, to Jephthah, or to both? It's unlikely that she had access to scriptures, so shouldn't God clarify the situation if a girl is obeying him incorrectly through no fault of her own?

Lastly, why does the author of Hebrews give Jephthah a "shout out" in the "Faith Hall of Fame"? Jephthah is casually mentioned in chapter 11 verse 32.


My reading


Many scholars view the book of Judges as a propaganda piece to push the idea of a king upon Israel. A common saying throughout the book is, "In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes."

I think the book of Judges is literally true about little to nothing. Judges 19 is a darker retelling of the story about Lot (Lot offered his daughters to a mob of rapists but did not actually give them; in Judges 19, the priest actually does give his concubine to a mob of rapists who raped her to death). The story of Jephthah is a darker retelling of the story about Abraham and Isaac: while Abraham, of course, did not end up killing his own son, Jephthah actually did kill his own daughter.

The reader was supposed to interpret this and connect the dots for himself: without a king, the nation of Israel heads into darkness.

If indeed he was under the influence of God's Holy Spirit then he would not have been led to offer his daughter as an actual burnt offering since that practice is clearly said to be an abomination. So he must have meant something else entirely.

The fact that there was human king in Israel doesn't mean that the people were unaware of their responsibility under the Mosaic Law. A knowledge of that Law a was a requirement for every Israelite because they were under a strict obligation to obey it. They were not free to commit adultery, bear false witness, steal, covet, murder, practice idolatry, dishonor father and mother or totally disregard all the other obligations as outlined in Exodus, Deuteronomy and Leviticus. The Levites and priests knew their responsibilities as well and so did any prophet that would speak in God's name to the people. any man appointed as judge during that time would also be aware of what was involved under the Law of Moses and what was pleasing or repugnant to God..

 

[Nihilist Virus]

I read the request for citations and the comment about Jesus. I think I responded to both. But if I missed something please point it out.

I was referring to the OP. You seem to have replied to this thread without even reading it.

BTW
Not everyone agrees that Jepthah's daughter was offered up as a human burnt offering for the following reasons.

Then they are wrong. You would not say this had you read the OP.

Four reasons why some believe that Jephthah’s daughter was not offered as a burnt sacrifice but was dedicated herself in the service of God to a life of chastity and celibacy..



1. Nowhere is Jepthah condemned. If he had actually sacrificed his daughter and violated the Mosaic Law then he would have been condemned.

That's one of the problems I'm pointing out. Instead of solving the problem you are citing it.

2. He was allowed to serve as a judge of Israel for six more years. Again, the people of Israel would not have allowed it had he performed pagan ritual considered an abomination.

See my previous point.

3. She laments her virginity and not the end of her life.

Because she's dying a virgin. Forget the OP... did you even read the passage?

4. The young women praise her for what she did. Again such praise would not have been offered had she actually volunteered to be offered as a burnt sacrifice.

No, they lament her. Now you're just making stuff up.

5. Also verse 39 tells us that after Jephthah had performed his "burnt offering" "she knew not a man." Such wording would be inane and heartless if she had died but is understandable if she was devoted to service at the tabernacle. Other examples of such women in Scripture are found in ; Ex 28:8; 1 Sam 2:22; and Luke 2:36,37.

There are a lot of heartless passages in Judges. I even mentioned chapter 19 in the OP.

If indeed he was under the influence of God's Holy Spirit then he would not have been led to offer his daughter as an actual burnt offering since that practice is clearly said to be an abomination. So he must have meant something else entirely.

Such as? You can't just reject the conclusion simply because you don't like it, particularly if you don't even have an alternate explanation.

The fact that there was human king in Israel

No there wasn't. That's the entire point of the book and I mentioned this.

doesn't mean that the people were unaware of their responsibility under the Mosaic Law. A knowledge of that Law a was a requirement for every Israelite because they were under a strict obligation to obey it. They were not free to commit adultery, bear false witness, steal, covet, murder, practice idolatry, dishonor father and mother or totally disregard all the other obligations as outlined in Exodus, Deuteronomy and Leviticus. The Levites and priests knew their responsibilities as well and so did any prophet that would speak in God's name to the people. any man appointed as judge during that time would also be aware of what was involved under the Law of Moses and what was pleasing or repugnant to God..

Then why did Jephthah sacrifice his own daughter?

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Maybe it should be said that it is the sacrifice of those who are merely human that is prohibited. However, a Son of a God is a different order of human being; and since the O.T. is chock-full of typological examples, we might even take Jepthah's daughter as one such example which prefigures the voluntary sacrifice of Jesus Himself. She didn't deserve it, and neither did Jesus deserve it, but God allowed it anyway, even though He didn't approve of it.

Or not. But, then again, we can also see Jesus' crucifixion as the implementation of the spiritual death penalty implied in the Old Covenant Law rather than "just" a sacrifice.

Reading in between the lines is great. Just read the lines once in a while!

Here's my response:

As I can show you, despite the fact that Jephtha kept his horrid promise, I don't think the writer of the book of Judges implies that God favored Jeptha's so doing.

Here's why I say this:

1) In Josephus' book, The Antiquities of the Jews (7.10), the comment is made that, "...when that time was over, he [Jephtha] sacrificed his daughter as a burnt offering, offering such an oblation as was neither conformable to the law nor acceptable to God, not weighing with himself what opinion the hearers would have of such a practice."

So, from what Josephus interprets of this passage in the book of Judges, Jephtha did indeed sacrifice his daughter, but his actions were not something esteemed by God or the Hebrew community. It's wasn't something the Israelites applauded him for.

2) I suggest that we also need to interpret the significance of the Jephtha passage by considering the overall context in which the passage lies, which in this case is the entire book of Judges. It is also contextualized by its relation to the Law of Moses (as Josephus also alluded to.)

What we find in the book of Judges is a further condemnation of Jeptha's actions by its referral to the fact that the people of Israel at that time had some serious moral problems and a strong tendency to flout the keeping of the Law. These moral problems and intergenerational disobedience are why they suffered under recurring oppression from surrounding peoples. They would sin, God would punish them. They would then cry out for deliverance, and God would raise up successive Judges to free them; some of the judges were good, and some of them were prone to their own sinful proclivities as well.

As you've already pointed out, one very significant thing we find in the book of Judges is the last statement made in the book, a statement which is actually a second iteration of the same premise: "In those days there was no king in Israel; everyone did what was right in his own eyes" (Judges 21:25); the same phrase is also found at Judges 17:6, and alluded to in Judges 18:1 and Judges 19:1, as well as implied in a substantial way early on in Judges, chapter 2. The point being is that the people of Israel of that time were a 'stubborn people' and did things not befitting the Law of Moses, and they made their situation bad by coming under God's displeasure.

3) We also need to consider the context which the Law provides in the Pentateuch, that Israel was to "...diligently heed the voice of the Lord your God and do what is right in His sight..." (Exodus 15:26), and then again many things are said which reflect this sentiment throughout the Pentateuch, particularly in Deuteronomy 18:8, which states "You shall not at all do as we are doing here today--every man doing whatever is right in his own eyes--"...all of which obviously sets the contrast and contextualization for the book of Judges.

So, if you will allow (and you probably won't), the Bible actually implies that Jephtha didn't do "right" when he sacrificed his daughter (if he truly did that in the first place.)

I'm not saying this so you'll change your mind as to whether the bible is a good or not, but my point is made to simply to insist that, even though we may not like the fact that God allowed Jephtha to sacrifice his daughter (or displace her to a 'nunnery' of sorts), the act was by no means authorized by God. He wasn't pleased in the least.

In fact, it may be this act of Jephtha that partially forms the backdrop for Jesus when He says that we should not resort to using oaths made to God, but rather to let our yes be yes and our no,no. (Matthew 5:33-37)

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

Ok... 2PV... but if the Bible condemns Jepthah's actions, why put him in Hebrews 11?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Reading in between the lines is great. Just read the lines once in a while!



Ok... 2PV... but if the Bible condemns Jepthah's actions, why put him in Hebrews 11?

Well now, let's see. In the same list, we also have:

1) A man who saved himself and his family by building a boat...and then he became a drunk.
2) A man who sometimes fibbed, had sex with his wife's handmaiden, and nearly sacrificed His own son with a ... big o' knife! (But, that last one was considered a righteous act, so we'll let it go! )
3) A woman who suggested, and saw to it, that her own husband consort sexually with her handmaiden; and when that handmaiden had a son, the woman wanted the handmaiden and her son kicked out of the village.
4) A man who relied on his mother's sophistry so he could lie to his father and steal a blessing from his brother...and to have two wives.
5) A man who murdered an Egyptian and feigned a lack of courage when God Himself said, "I'll be with you!"
6) A woman who was a regular prostitute ... and still got to play a part in Jesus' lineage.
7) A man who was a Judge of Israel, but who smelted some gold into an ephod which caused him and Israel to fall into idolatry.
8) Another man who was a judge of Israel, who not only married a Philistine wife, but also later had some recurring sexual indiscretions with a popular harlot.
9) A rather famous man, known for being attuned to "God's own heart," who not only committed adultery with another man's wife, but then had her husband murdered by intrigue during warfare.
....and you're wanting me to think that Jephtha is somehow out of place for being listed with these others of his Jewish ilk? You must be reading the Disney Bible Version, NV.

All the above are on the "Hall of Fame" list in Hebrews chapter 11, and it seems to me like Jephtha fits in just fine.

The upshot of all of this is that I think we should be careful with how we use Hebrews chapter 11; it isn't so much a list of "best recommendations" as much as it is a list of those who did something great for God WHEN they did those things by faith. When they didn't act on faith, but instead did what was right in their own eyes, then they didn't quite do great things, to put it mildly.

2PhiloVoid

 

[Soyeong]

Judges 11:29-40 says,

29Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah, and he passed over Gilead, and Manasseh, and passed over Mizpeh of Gilead, and from Mizpeh of Gilead he passed over unto the children of Ammon.

30And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the LORD, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands,

31Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD'S, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering.

32So Jephthah passed over unto the children of Ammon to fight against them; and the LORD delivered them into his hands.

33And he smote them from Aroer, even till thou come to Minnith, even twenty cities, and unto the plain of the vineyards, with a very great slaughter. Thus the children of Ammon were subdued before the children of Israel.

34And Jephthah came to Mizpeh unto his house, and, behold, his daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and with dances: and she was his only child; beside her he had neither son nor daughter.

35And it came to pass, when he saw her, that he rent his clothes, and said, Alas, my daughter! thou hast brought me very low, and thou art one of them that trouble me: for I have opened my mouth unto the LORD, and I cannot go back.

36And she said unto him, My father, if thou hast opened thy mouth unto the LORD, do to me according to that which hath proceeded out of thy mouth; forasmuch as the LORD hath taken vengeance for thee of thine enemies, even of the children of Ammon.

37And she said unto her father, Let this thing be done for me: let me alone two months, that I may go up and down upon the mountains, and bewail my virginity, I and my fellows.

38And he said, Go. And he sent her away for two months: and she went with her companions, and bewailed her virginity upon the mountains.

39And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed: and she knew no man. And it was a custom in Israel,

40That the daughters of Israel went yearly to lament the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite four days in a year.



An objective reading


Observe that verse 29 says that the spirit of the Lord came upon Jephthah, then immediately afterward in verse 30 Jephthah makes his vow. This suggests that God influenced Jephthah in making the vow.

It is then said in verse 32 that God delivered Jephthah's enemies into his hands, indicating that God accepted Jephthah's terms (which, as I said, were possibly influenced by God to begin with).

In verse 36, Jephthah's daughter gives no indication that her father's vow is invalid and that it should be nullified. In fact, she says that he must honor his vow.

Finally, in verse 39, Jephthah fulfills his vow. There is no indication that God is either pleased or displeased with this.


An apologist's reading (and what they overlook)


Generally, apologists ignore the points I raised about verses 29, 30, & 32 and simply defer to the last point I made (that God gives no indication that he is either pleased or displeased with the sacrifice).

While the Bible does not explicitly forbid every kind of human sacrifice (and how could it if it promotes Christ's sacrifice?), Deuteronomy 18:10 forbids the exact thing that Jephthah did: a burnt offering of one's son or daughter (note that verse 31 has Jephthah specifying that he will give a burnt offering).

Does Jephthah not know this? Does Jephthah's daughter not know this? Do none of her friends know this (note that she retreats with friends to the mountains in verses 37-38)? Are there no neighbors who discover Jephthah's plans in the two-month interim who know this? Why did God seem to arrange all of this if it is in direct violation of his edicts?

Also, why does the daughter's self-preservation instinct never prompt her actions? Why does she not seek the elders of her village? Do her actions seem reasonable? Is she supposed to honor her father and allow her father to commit this abominable act, or is she supposed to honor God above her father and rebuke him for this? If she is obeying her father with pure, yet ignorant, intentions, and if God does not want this to occur, why doesn't he make it clear to her, to Jephthah, or to both? It's unlikely that she had access to scriptures, so shouldn't God clarify the situation if a girl is obeying him incorrectly through no fault of her own?

Lastly, why does the author of Hebrews give Jephthah a "shout out" in the "Faith Hall of Fame"? Jephthah is casually mentioned in chapter 11 verse 32.


My reading


Many scholars view the book of Judges as a propaganda piece to push the idea of a king upon Israel. A common saying throughout the book is, "In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes."

I think the book of Judges is literally true about little to nothing. Judges 19 is a darker retelling of the story about Lot (Lot offered his daughters to a mob of rapists but did not actually give them; in Judges 19, the priest actually does give his concubine to a mob of rapists who raped her to death). The story of Jephthah is a darker retelling of the story about Abraham and Isaac: while Abraham, of course, did not end up killing his own son, Jephthah actually did kill his own daughter.

The reader was supposed to interpret this and connect the dots for himself: without a king, the nation of Israel heads into darkness.

The short of it is that based on Numbers 21, Jephthat was certainly aware the the Pentateuch forbade human sacrifice and that burnt offerings had to be male and were made for atonement rather than giving thanks. Furthermore, the word used for "vow" is the same used in Leviticus 27 in reference to redeeming a person with silver as an act of devotion. His daughter would have been aware of a public vow and she expressed concern not with being killed, but about always being a virgin, and in Judges 11:36, she already knew what the vow was for, so she intentionally was the first out of the house, while Jephthah likely expected a servant instead. Whoever was the subject of Leviticus 27 was holy to the Lord, and term used for "burnt offering" can refer to something totally given up or devoted to God and is used in other contexts that does not refer to killing something. This is not unlike Hannah vowing to give her child in service to God (1 Samuel 1:11).

 

[Nihilist Virus]

The short of it is that based on Numbers 21, Jephthat was certainly aware the the Pentateuch forbade human sacrifice and that burnt offerings had to be male and were made for atonement rather than giving thanks. Furthermore, the word used for "vow" is the same used in Leviticus 27 in reference to redeeming a person with silver as an act of devotion. His daughter would have been aware of a public vow and she expressed concern not with being killed, but about always being a virgin, and in Judges 11:36, she already knew what the vow was for, so she intentionally was the first out of the house, while Jephthah likely expected a servant instead. Whoever was the subject of Leviticus 27 was holy to the Lord, and term used for "burnt offering" can refer to something totally given up or devoted to God and is used in other contexts that does not refer to killing something. This is not unlike Hannah vowing to give her child in service to God (1 Samuel 1:11).

Nowhere in the Old Testament does it forbid human sacrifice. That is a lie. It only forbids one specific instance: when it is your own children, and when it is by burning. And that was presumably because of the feud with the Molech worshipers.

So please show me anywhere that says that you may not sacrifice your children to God. Conversely, I have several passages that depict human sacrifice, the most famous of which is covered in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.

Now, with regards to Tekton's points: even if I grant everything he says that would require research, we still are left with a fanciful, far-fetched interpretation which is consistent with the narrative vs a simple reading of the narrative (which is of course consistent with the narrative). His case is only compelling if you hold the Bible in high regard from the start. If you're objective, the plain reading is what leaps off the page - particularly since the book of Judges has two obvious, deliberate parallels with stories in Genesis. If you take this one away, and say it's nothing to do with sacrifice, then the story in Judges 19 is wildly similar to the story of Lot just by... coincidence? But if you see what the author of Judges is trying to do, then it's obvious what is going on.

I'm willing to consider what he says, but you need to explain the coincidence of Judges 19 and the story of Lot.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Judges 11:29-40 says,

29Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah, and he passed over Gilead, and Manasseh, and passed over Mizpeh of Gilead, and from Mizpeh of Gilead he passed over unto the children of Ammon.

30And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the LORD, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands,

31Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD'S, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering.

32So Jephthah passed over unto the children of Ammon to fight against them; and the LORD delivered them into his hands.

33And he smote them from Aroer, even till thou come to Minnith, even twenty cities, and unto the plain of the vineyards, with a very great slaughter. Thus the children of Ammon were subdued before the children of Israel.

34And Jephthah came to Mizpeh unto his house, and, behold, his daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and with dances: and she was his only child; beside her he had neither son nor daughter.

35And it came to pass, when he saw her, that he rent his clothes, and said, Alas, my daughter! thou hast brought me very low, and thou art one of them that trouble me: for I have opened my mouth unto the LORD, and I cannot go back.

36And she said unto him, My father, if thou hast opened thy mouth unto the LORD, do to me according to that which hath proceeded out of thy mouth; forasmuch as the LORD hath taken vengeance for thee of thine enemies, even of the children of Ammon.

37And she said unto her father, Let this thing be done for me: let me alone two months, that I may go up and down upon the mountains, and bewail my virginity, I and my fellows.

38And he said, Go. And he sent her away for two months: and she went with her companions, and bewailed her virginity upon the mountains.

39And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed: and she knew no man. And it was a custom in Israel,

40That the daughters of Israel went yearly to lament the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite four days in a year.



An objective reading


Observe that verse 29 says that the spirit of the Lord came upon Jephthah, then immediately afterward in verse 30 Jephthah makes his vow. This suggests that God influenced Jephthah in making the vow.

It is then said in verse 32 that God delivered Jephthah's enemies into his hands, indicating that God accepted Jephthah's terms (which, as I said, were possibly influenced by God to begin with).

In verse 36, Jephthah's daughter gives no indication that her father's vow is invalid and that it should be nullified. In fact, she says that he must honor his vow.

Finally, in verse 39, Jephthah fulfills his vow. There is no indication that God is either pleased or displeased with this.


An apologist's reading (and what they overlook)


Generally, apologists ignore the points I raised about verses 29, 30, & 32 and simply defer to the last point I made (that God gives no indication that he is either pleased or displeased with the sacrifice).

While the Bible does not explicitly forbid every kind of human sacrifice (and how could it if it promotes Christ's sacrifice?), Deuteronomy 18:10 forbids the exact thing that Jephthah did: a burnt offering of one's son or daughter (note that verse 31 has Jephthah specifying that he will give a burnt offering).

Does Jephthah not know this? Does Jephthah's daughter not know this? Do none of her friends know this (note that she retreats with friends to the mountains in verses 37-38)? Are there no neighbors who discover Jephthah's plans in the two-month interim who know this? Why did God seem to arrange all of this if it is in direct violation of his edicts?

Also, why does the daughter's self-preservation instinct never prompt her actions? Why does she not seek the elders of her village? Do her actions seem reasonable? Is she supposed to honor her father and allow her father to commit this abominable act, or is she supposed to honor God above her father and rebuke him for this? If she is obeying her father with pure, yet ignorant, intentions, and if God does not want this to occur, why doesn't he make it clear to her, to Jephthah, or to both? It's unlikely that she had access to scriptures, so shouldn't God clarify the situation if a girl is obeying him incorrectly through no fault of her own?

Lastly, why does the author of Hebrews give Jephthah a "shout out" in the "Faith Hall of Fame"? Jephthah is casually mentioned in chapter 11 verse 32.


My reading


Many scholars view the book of Judges as a propaganda piece to push the idea of a king upon Israel. A common saying throughout the book is, "In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes."

I think the book of Judges is literally true about little to nothing. Judges 19 is a darker retelling of the story about Lot (Lot offered his daughters to a mob of rapists but did not actually give them; in Judges 19, the priest actually does give his concubine to a mob of rapists who raped her to death). The story of Jephthah is a darker retelling of the story about Abraham and Isaac: while Abraham, of course, did not end up killing his own son, Jephthah actually did kill his own daughter.

The reader was supposed to interpret this and connect the dots for himself: without a king, the nation of Israel heads into darkness.

And why does she have to bewail her virginity? If she was going to the roast, it seems like her status as an ongoing virgin should have been the least of her worries. Hmmm...mysteries of the Bible!

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Nowhere in the Old Testament does it forbid human sacrifice. That is a lie. It only forbids one specific instance: when it is your own children, and when it is by burning. And that was presumably because of the feud with the Molech worshipers.

So please show me anywhere that says that you may not sacrifice your children to God. Conversely, I have several passages that depict human sacrifice, the most famous of which is covered in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.

Now, with regards to Tekton's points: even if I grant everything he says that would require research, we still are left with a fanciful, far-fetched interpretation which is consistent with the narrative vs a simple reading of the narrative (which is of course consistent with the narrative). His case is only compelling if you hold the Bible in high regard from the start. If you're objective, the plain reading is what leaps off the page - particularly since the book of Judges has two obvious, deliberate parallels with stories in Genesis. If you take this one away, and say it's nothing to do with sacrifice, then the story in Judges 19 is wildly similar to the story of Lot just by... coincidence? But if you see what the author of Judges is trying to do, then it's obvious what is going on.

I'm willing to consider what he says, but you need to explain the coincidence of Judges 19 and the story of Lot.

So, does this mean the Israelites could sacrifice orphans....since, obviously, those children were "easy picking" and someone else's children? (...and obviously, that is a silly question for reasons evident to anyone who reads the Torah!)

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Judges 11:29-40 says,

29Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah, and he passed over Gilead, and Manasseh, and passed over Mizpeh of Gilead, and from Mizpeh of Gilead he passed over unto the children of Ammon.

30And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the LORD, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands,

31Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD'S, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering.

32So Jephthah passed over unto the children of Ammon to fight against them; and the LORD delivered them into his hands.

33And he smote them from Aroer, even till thou come to Minnith, even twenty cities, and unto the plain of the vineyards, with a very great slaughter. Thus the children of Ammon were subdued before the children of Israel.

34And Jephthah came to Mizpeh unto his house, and, behold, his daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and with dances: and she was his only child; beside her he had neither son nor daughter.

35And it came to pass, when he saw her, that he rent his clothes, and said, Alas, my daughter! thou hast brought me very low, and thou art one of them that trouble me: for I have opened my mouth unto the LORD, and I cannot go back.

36And she said unto him, My father, if thou hast opened thy mouth unto the LORD, do to me according to that which hath proceeded out of thy mouth; forasmuch as the LORD hath taken vengeance for thee of thine enemies, even of the children of Ammon.

37And she said unto her father, Let this thing be done for me: let me alone two months, that I may go up and down upon the mountains, and bewail my virginity, I and my fellows.

38And he said, Go. And he sent her away for two months: and she went with her companions, and bewailed her virginity upon the mountains.

39And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed: and she knew no man. And it was a custom in Israel,

40That the daughters of Israel went yearly to lament the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite four days in a year.



An objective reading


Observe that verse 29 says that the spirit of the Lord came upon Jephthah, then immediately afterward in verse 30 Jephthah makes his vow. This suggests that God influenced Jephthah in making the vow.

It is then said in verse 32 that God delivered Jephthah's enemies into his hands, indicating that God accepted Jephthah's terms (which, as I said, were possibly influenced by God to begin with).

In verse 36, Jephthah's daughter gives no indication that her father's vow is invalid and that it should be nullified. In fact, she says that he must honor his vow.

Finally, in verse 39, Jephthah fulfills his vow. There is no indication that God is either pleased or displeased with this.


An apologist's reading (and what they overlook)


Generally, apologists ignore the points I raised about verses 29, 30, & 32 and simply defer to the last point I made (that God gives no indication that he is either pleased or displeased with the sacrifice).

While the Bible does not explicitly forbid every kind of human sacrifice (and how could it if it promotes Christ's sacrifice?), Deuteronomy 18:10 forbids the exact thing that Jephthah did: a burnt offering of one's son or daughter (note that verse 31 has Jephthah specifying that he will give a burnt offering).

Does Jephthah not know this? Does Jephthah's daughter not know this? Do none of her friends know this (note that she retreats with friends to the mountains in verses 37-38)? Are there no neighbors who discover Jephthah's plans in the two-month interim who know this? Why did God seem to arrange all of this if it is in direct violation of his edicts?

Also, why does the daughter's self-preservation instinct never prompt her actions? Why does she not seek the elders of her village? Do her actions seem reasonable? Is she supposed to honor her father and allow her father to commit this abominable act, or is she supposed to honor God above her father and rebuke him for this? If she is obeying her father with pure, yet ignorant, intentions, and if God does not want this to occur, why doesn't he make it clear to her, to Jephthah, or to both? It's unlikely that she had access to scriptures, so shouldn't God clarify the situation if a girl is obeying him incorrectly through no fault of her own?

Lastly, why does the author of Hebrews give Jephthah a "shout out" in the "Faith Hall of Fame"? Jephthah is casually mentioned in chapter 11 verse 32.


My reading


Many scholars view the book of Judges as a propaganda piece to push the idea of a king upon Israel. A common saying throughout the book is, "In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes."

I think the book of Judges is literally true about little to nothing. Judges 19 is a darker retelling of the story about Lot (Lot offered his daughters to a mob of rapists but did not actually give them; in Judges 19, the priest actually does give his concubine to a mob of rapists who raped her to death). The story of Jephthah is a darker retelling of the story about Abraham and Isaac: while Abraham, of course, did not end up killing his own son, Jephthah actually did kill his own daughter.

The reader was supposed to interpret this and connect the dots for himself: without a king, the nation of Israel heads into darkness.

...I was just think'n, it probably also makes a difference in the case of Jephthah that the Law says that God requires us to fulfill our vows, BUT it also says that if we abstain from making a vow, "it shall not be sin to you."

So, its seems Jephthah was a bit compulsive and made an unneeded, rash vow to God; he could have just devoted Himself to the Lord in the name of justice, and God still would have given him victory over his enemies. But, as it was, Jephthah just had to open his big, fat mouth, didn't he? (Deuteronomy 23:21-23).

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

 

[Nihilist Virus]

So, does this mean the Israelites could sacrifice orphans....since, obviously, those children were "easy picking" and someone else's children? (...and obviously, that is a silly question for reasons evident to anyone who reads the Torah!)

Orphans were sacrificed in Numbers 31. Here's a run-down of the chapter:

The Hebrews brag about slaughtering the Midianites;

Moses is angry about a venereal disease, er, uh, a "plague" that has gone around because the men were raping, er, uh, "having consensual sex" with the war hostage women who weren't virgins. So Moses ordered that all the non-virgin women be put to death, and of course all the boys too... even the infants;

And then in verse 32 they start dividing up the spoils, and some of the spoils are set apart to be given to the Lord as a tribute. Giving cattle to the Lord as a tribute generally involves setting them on fire. The virgin girls are lumped in that category.

Even if you want to argue, as I'm sure you will, that these cattle and virgins were given to the high priest instead of to the Lord, may I ask why the girls had to be virgins? What was he intending to do with them that specified they must be virgins? Was this activity going to be consensual?

...I was just think'n, it probably also makes a difference in the case of Jephthah that the Law says that God requires us to fulfill our vows, BUT it also says that if we abstain from making a vow, "it shall not be sin to you."

So, its seems Jephthah was a bit compulsive and made an unneeded, rash vow to God; he could have just devoted Himself to the Lord in the name of justice, and God still would have given him victory over his enemies. But, as it was, Jephthah just had to open his big, fat mouth, didn't he? (Deuteronomy 23:21-23).

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

OK, but why did God accept the vow? It says that he delivered Jephthah's enemies into his hands.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Orphans were sacrificed in Numbers 31. Here's a run-down of the chapter:

The Hebrews brag about slaughtering the Midianites;

Moses is angry about a venereal disease, er, uh, a "plague" that has gone around because the men were raping, er, uh, "having consensual sex" with the war hostage women who weren't virgins. So Moses ordered that all the non-virgin women be put to death, and of course all the boys too... even the infants;

And then in verse 32 they start dividing up the spoils, and some of the spoils are set apart to be given to the Lord as a tribute. Giving cattle to the Lord as a tribute generally involves setting them on fire. The virgin girls are lumped in that category.

Even if you want to argue, as I'm sure you will, that these cattle and virgins were given to the high priest instead of to the Lord, may I ask why the girls had to be virgins? What was he intending to do with them that specified they must be virgins? Was this activity going to be consensual?

How coincidental. I just answered this question for another person on CF. But, I'm sure that, like him, you won't like the undemocratic answer I gave.

OK, but why did God accept the vow? It says that he delivered Jephthah's enemies into his hands.

Sure, God could have "accepted" the vow as it was first made, but that doesn't mean He accepted the way in which it may have been carried out. Besides, it's not as if Jephthah had only one option ...

And it's also not as if we should expect God to act like Superman when anyone makes a stupid mistake in their lives. But, that's what we all want God to be...isn't it? Our own little, private Kal-El: a god who is not just a defender of the innocent, but a Super Agent of Prevention. Ho-hum. That way, we never have to face up to the screw-ups that we make for ourselves and that we also make for others (who are sometimes innocent).

Unfortunately, dealing with the God of the Bible is no Charismatic dreamland.

2PhiloVoid

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Well now, let's see. In the same list, we also have:

1) A man who saved himself and his family by building a boat...and then he became a drunk.

OK... so why did God specifically choose him (and by extension his family, seeing as how a man's family was considered property)?

2) A man who sometimes fibbed, had sex with his wife's handmaiden, and nearly sacrificed His own son with a ... big o' knife! (But, that last one was considered a righteous act, so we'll let it go!)

Fornication with consent of your spouse is immoral but plotting to kill your own son for no reason whatsoever is righteous? Right, but it wasn't for "no reason" because he was following God's orders who told him to do it for... well... no reason whatsoever.

3) A woman who suggested, and saw to it, that her own husband consort sexually with her handmaiden; and when that handmaiden had a son, the woman wanted the handmaiden and her son kicked out of the village.

Only the second part of that is bad.

4) A man who relied on his mother's sophistry so he could lie to his father and steal a blessing from his brother...and to have two wives.

You forgot to mention that Jacob slaughtered a bunch of guys after cutting their penises.

5) A man who murdered an Egyptian and feigned a lack of courage when God Himself said, "I'll be with you!"

A man who argued with God and won.

6) A woman who was a regular prostitute ... and still got to play a part in Jesus' lineage.

What is wrong with being a prostitute?

Also, doesn't Ruth's existence in the lineage of Christ mean that every apologist who defends the Jacob genocides as being "ethnic cleansing to preserve the line of the messiah" is simply lying?

7) A man who was a Judge of Israel, but who smelted some gold into an ephod which caused him and Israel to fall into idolatry.

But idolatry is no big deal, even if you've seen God in action. Right?

8) Another man who was a judge of Israel, who not only married a Philistine wife, but also later had some recurring sexual indiscretions with a popular harlot.

2PV, you seem pretty liberal to me. What exactly is wrong with any of that? I can't picture you as a bigot.

9) A rather famous man, known for being attuned to "God's own heart," who not only committed adultery with another man's wife, but then had her husband murdered by intrigue during warfare.

But God tortured and killed David's son so that issue is dealt with, right?

....and you're wanting me to think that Jephtha is somehow out of place for being listed with these others of his Jewish ilk? You must be reading the Disney Bible Version, NV.

All the above are on the "Hall of Fame" list in Hebrews chapter 11, and it seems to me like Jephtha fits in just fine.

The upshot of all of this is that I think we should be careful with how we use Hebrews chapter 11; it isn't so much a list of "best recommendations" as much as it is a list of those who did something great for God WHEN they did those things by faith. When they didn't act on faith, but instead did what was right in their own eyes, then they didn't quite do great things, to put it mildly.

2PhiloVoid

OK, so if Jephthah "fits in just fine" with a list of people "who did something great for God WHEN they did those things by faith" then could you tell me what exactly was great that Jephthah did? Was it the slaughtering of people on a battlefield or the burning of his own daughter?

How coincidental. I just answered this question for another person on CF. But, I'm sure that, like him, you won't like the undemocratic answer I gave.

Yet I see no link...?

Sure, God could have "accepted" the vow as it was first made, but that doesn't mean He accepted the way in which it may have been carried out. Besides, it's not as if Jephthah had only one option ...

I have no idea what any of this means.

And it's also not as if we should expect God to act like Superman when anyone makes a stupid mistake in their lives. But, that's what we all want God to be...isn't it? Our own little, private Kal-El: a god who is not just a defender of the innocent, but a Super Agent of Prevention. Ho-hum. That way, we never have to face up to the screw-ups that we make for ourselves and that we also make for others (who are sometimes innocent).

As a mere human being I cannot be omniscient, omnipresent, or omnipotent. But I could be omnibenevolent. Why isn't God?

Unfortunately, dealing with the God of the Bible is no Charismatic dreamland.

At last we agree on one thing.