Amillennialism blown away by Revelation 20

Status
Not open for further replies.

OneAccordRM

You hated Christ before you hated me.
Jul 25, 2014
760
15
✟959.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Yes, if you try hard enough. Although there's a difference between a tenuous connection and a strong connection that is corroborated by multiple passages of scripture as well as recorded history.

Perfect.

If you can show me these events in history, Im all ears.. And please, dont even try and tell me that Antiochus fulfilled the Abomination, that would mean Christ was giving a reverse prophecy that was already fulfilled.

Clearly the Abomination that takes place is future to when Christ gives the prophecy, in which Antiochus was long dead.

Mat 24:14 "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Mat 24:15 "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),

Mat 24:21 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

Mat 24:22 "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

Mat 24:27 "For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Mat 24:30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.

Mat 24:31 "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.



Ill expect to be able to see these events documented as fulfilled in History by more than one witness.


Convince me.
 
Upvote 0

Rev20

Partial Preterist
Jun 16, 2014
1,988
71
✟13,267.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Because the end of all things has never happened, the "at hand" in 1 Peter 4:7 can be understood from the viewpoint of God, for whom a thousand years is like a day (2 Peter 3:8-9).

The end of all things (1 Peter 4:7) won't occur until about 3,000 AD, when, after the future millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-10), heaven (the 1st heaven, the sky/atmosphere) and the earth (its surface) will be literally burned up (2 Peter 3:10) before the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15) and the subsequent creation of a new heaven (atmosphere) and earth (surface) (Revelation 21:1-8).

I understand that you and other literalists have already condemned the world to destruction. But that is not the case with God:

"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved." -- Jn 3:17

There are many passages that point to this earth as eternal:

"[The Lord] laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever." -- Ps 104:5

"One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever." -- Ecc 1:4

"For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord; and there is none else." -- Isa 45:18

"For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh." -- Isa 66:22-24

"And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world." -- Jn 12:47

"Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen." -- Eph 3:21

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever." -- Rev 11:15

"And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it." -- Rev 21:24

"In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations." -- Rev 22:2
.

So, if the world never ends, how do you know the "end of all things" never happened, or ever will happen? Maybe Peter was referring to the end of the Jewish Age: the end of all things for the Jewish economy and their traditions.

These are some of the verses where the word "world" actually means "age", which is of the Greek word "aion":

"The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world <aion>; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world <aion>." -- Mt 13:39-40

"And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world <aion>?" -- Mt 24:3

"But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world <aion> to come eternal life." -- Mk 10:30

"Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began <aion>." -- Acts 3:21

"Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world <aion> are come." -- 1Cor 10:11

"Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world <aion>, according to the will of God and our Father:" -- Gal 1:4

So, the so-called "end of the world" is, in reality, the end of the Jewish Age.
:)


Jesus spake in parables, and in many instances his disciples used figurative language and symbolic imagery. For example, take this passage by Peter, which is virtually all symbolic imagery:

"But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men . . . But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?" -- 2Pet 3:7, 10-12

That prediction seems dire and final, until an exegetical analysis is performed. Then it is revealed that the word "elements" comes from the Greek Word "stoicheion " which means, simply, "something orderly in arrangement." Similar uses of that same Greek word are found in these verses:

"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments <stoicheion> of the world, and not after Christ." -- Col 2:8

"For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles <stoicheion> of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat." -- Heb 5:12

So, "elements" simply means traditions or principles; or, in the case of ancient Jerusalem, the myriad of rules and laws created by the control freaks to keep the people in bondage. And they most definitely were in bondage, which was one of the items in the Lord's Mission Statement:

"The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;" -- Isa 61:1-2

Paul explained that the earthly Jerusalem was the city of bondage:

"For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all." -- Gal 4:22-26

"Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free." -- Gal 4:30-31
:)


So much for "elements" burning up. Now on to "fire". There are two Greek words for fire in 2nd Peter, one word derived from the other:

verse 7 -- pur: fire (literal or figurative, specially lightning): — fiery, fire.

verse 12 - puroo: derived from pur; to kindle, i.e. (passive) to be ignited, glow (literal), be refined (by implication), or (figurative) to be inflamed (with anger, grief, lust): — burn, fiery, be on fire, try.


These are some verses that use those words:

"And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire <pur>." -- Mt 3:10

"I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire<pur>: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire <pur>." -- Mt 3:11-12

"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire <pur>, and they are burned." -- Jn 15:6

"Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire <pur> shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." -- 1Cor 3:13-15

"In flaming fire <pur> taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:" -- 2Th 1:8

"That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire <pur>, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:" -- 1Pet 1:7

"And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. And if any man will hurt them, fire <pur> proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed." -- Rev 11:3-5

"But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn <puroo>." -- 1Cor 7:9

"Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn <puroo> not?" -- 2Cor 11:29

"I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire <puroo>, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see." -- Rev 3:18

So, I think we can reasonably assume that in most places in the scripture, "fire is not fire". And a thorough understanding of the end times reveals that it means, in all cases, the end of the age, not the end of the planet.

Like I told you earlier, literalism always fails. :)
.
 
Upvote 0

LastSeven

Amil
Site Supporter
Sep 2, 2010
5,205
1,046
Edmonton, Alberta
✟154,576.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I believe the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel is the large eagle that king Herod had placed over the the gate of the temple. I believe this Eagle was the cause of the rebellion and was the start of the time of great distress, "such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be".
 
Upvote 0

OneAccordRM

You hated Christ before you hated me.
Jul 25, 2014
760
15
✟959.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I believe the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel is the large eagle that king Herod had placed over the the gate of the temple. I believe this Eagle was the cause of the rebellion and was the start of the time of great distress, "such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be".

Sorry, that would mean Christ pointed to a prophecy that was already fulfilled.

Any other guesses?

Lets look at this again.

Mat 24:15 "So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),


Basically what you are saying Christ said is this:

"So when you see the eagle statue that no longer exists, spoken of Daniel the Prophet standing in the Holy Place"


Do you see why that makes no sense?
 
Upvote 0

LastSeven

Amil
Site Supporter
Sep 2, 2010
5,205
1,046
Edmonton, Alberta
✟154,576.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Sorry, that would mean Christ pointed to a prophecy that was already fulfilled.

Any other guesses?

Lets look at this again.

Mat 24:15 "So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),

Basically what you are saying Christ said is this:

"So when you see the eagle statue that no longer exists, spoken of Daniel the Prophet standing in the Holy Place"

Do you see why that makes no sense?

First of all, you need to drop the attitude and stop talking to me like I'm in grade four. I think you'll find that you and I are a lot closer in our beliefs than you think.

Secondly, I'm pretty sure the Eagle was erected by King Herod after Jesus' death and resurrection, and this eagle is what led to the rebellion, which led to the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem and destroying the temple in 70 AD.

I am not talking about anything Antiochus Epiphanes did, if that's what you're assuming. Obviously the whole Antiochus episode happened over 100 years before Christ.
 
Upvote 0

OneAccordRM

You hated Christ before you hated me.
Jul 25, 2014
760
15
✟959.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
First of all, you need to drop the attitude and stop talking to me like I'm in grade four. I think you'll find that you and I are a lot closer in our beliefs than you think.

Secondly, I'm pretty sure the Eagle was erected by King Herod after Jesus' death and resurrection, and this eagle is what led to the rebellion, which led to the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem and destroying the temple in 70 AD.

I am not talking about anything Antiochus Epiphanes did, if that's what you're assuming. Obviously the whole Antiochus episode happened over 100 years before Christ.

Herods eagle was bc. (20bc if my memory serves me correctly)

Forgive me for taking you for a preterist, you seemed to be defending their doctrine, and it honestly doesnt even deserve the name "doctrine", its pure nonsense.

The antiochus argument is one of the first things preterists lock on to, and its rubbish.


Are you a preterist? I wont even discuss scripture with preterists, they refuse Gods word as objective and spiritualize everything to conform to their beliefs.

They forget that all the prophecy in the Bible always is fulfilled literally.

And if the prophecy is given in allegory, the Bible decodes it for us.
 
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,492
28,587
73
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,240.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
First of all, you need to drop the attitude and stop talking to me like I'm in grade four. I think you'll find that you and I are a lot closer in our beliefs than you think.

Secondly, I'm pretty sure the Eagle was erected by King Herod after Jesus' death and resurrection, and this eagle is what led to the rebellion, which led to the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem and destroying the temple in 70 AD.

.
Interesting. First I have heard of that.....Thanks for bringing that up.

Wonder what year that happened?

Ezekiel 39:4
On mountains of Israel thou shall fall thou and all of thy combatants and peoples who with thee to bird-of-prey/05861 `ayit, bird/06833 tsippow

Matthew 24:
28 "For the where ever may be the corpse/ptwma <4430>, there shall be being gathered the eagles/aetoi <105>. [Luke 17:37]

The Golden Eagle is Cut to Pieces. Herod's Barbarity when He was Ready to Die. He Attempts to Kill Himself. He Commands Antipater to be Slain.

Now the king had put up a golden eagle over the great gate of the temple, which these learned men exhorted them to cut down; and told them, that if there should any danger arise, it was a glorious thing to die for the laws of their country; because that the soul was immortal, and that an eternal enjoyment of happiness did await such as died on that account; while the mean-spirited, and those that were not wise enough to show a right love of their souls, preferred a death by a disease, before that which is the result of a virtuous behavior...............




.
 
Upvote 0

OneAccordRM

You hated Christ before you hated me.
Jul 25, 2014
760
15
✟959.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Interesting. First I have heard of that.....Thanks for bringing that up.

Wonder what year that happened?

Ezekiel 39:4
On mountains of Israel thou shall fall thou and all of thy combatants and peoples who with thee to bird-of-prey/05861 `ayit, bird/06833 tsippow

Matthew 24:
28 "For the where ever may be the corpse/ptwma <4430>, there shall be being gathered the eagles/aetoi <105>. [Luke 17:37]

The Golden Eagle is Cut to Pieces. Herod's Barbarity when He was Ready to Die. He Attempts to Kill Himself. He Commands Antipater to be Slain.

Now the king had put up a golden eagle over the great gate of the temple, which these learned men exhorted them to cut down; and told them, that if there should any danger arise, it was a glorious thing to die for the laws of their country; because that the soul was immortal, and that an eternal enjoyment of happiness did await such as died on that account; while the mean-spirited, and those that were not wise enough to show a right love of their souls, preferred a death by a disease, before that which is the result of a virtuous behavior...............




.

In case you are positing that the eagle was the abomination.

"and this at midday, and while a great number of people were in the temple, and cut down that golden eagle with axes"

This happened before Christ was born.


Thanks for the source btw. It refutes your own argument.
 
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,492
28,587
73
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,240.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
In case you are positing that the eagle was the abomination.

"and this at midday, and while a great number of people were in the temple, and cut down that golden eagle with axes"

This happened before Christ was born.


Thanks for the source btw. It refutes your own argument.
:scratch:

I wasn't argueing anything.
There are threads on the AoD if you are that obsessed with it......Or just start one......

http://www.christianforums.com/t7548832/
Where is Abomination of Desolation showing in Revelaton?

http://www.christianforums.com/t7505784/
Quick evidence that Daniel 9:27 is not the abomination of desolation.


.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

OneAccordRM

You hated Christ before you hated me.
Jul 25, 2014
760
15
✟959.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
:scratch:

I wasn't argueing anything.
There are threads on the AoD if you are that obsessed with it......Or just start one......

http://www.christianforums.com/t7548832/
Where is Abomination of Desolation showing in Revelaton?

http://www.christianforums.com/t7505784/
Quick evidence that Daniel 9:27 is not the abomination of desolation.


.

There isnt anything to argue, the Abomination that Christ spoke of hasnt happened yet.

No need to start a thread or argue something that hasnt happened yet.

When the prophecy is fulfilled, those who follow Christ will know.

His sheep here his voice, and we are ever so vigilantly watching what Israel is doing.

If we are still here.
 
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,492
28,587
73
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,240.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Herod the Great died in 4 bc nearly 25 years before Christ was crucified.

The Herod eagle connection as the abomination is impossible.

Connection refuted.
Ahhh, I thought you were talking about the Herod spoken of in the NT. My bad.........

Act 12:
1 Now about that time Herod the king stretched out his hand to harass some from the church.

21 So on a set day Herod, arrayed in royal apparel, sat on his throne and gave an oration to them.
22 And the people kept shouting, &#8220;The voice of a god and not of a man!&#8221;
23 Then immediately an angel of the Lord struck him, because he did not give glory to God. And he was eaten by worms and died.


.
 
Upvote 0

OneAccordRM

You hated Christ before you hated me.
Jul 25, 2014
760
15
✟959.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Ahhh, I thought you were talking about the Herod spoken of in the NT. My bad.........

Act 12:
1 Now about that time Herod the king stretched out his hand to harass some from the church.

21 So on a set day Herod, arrayed in royal apparel, sat on his throne and gave an oration to them.
22 And the people kept shouting, “The voice of a god and not of a man!”
23 Then immediately an angel of the Lord struck him, because he did not give glory to God. And he was eaten by worms and died.


.

Sorry, should have been more specific.

Herod in acts died in 37bc I believe, with Herod the great in 4bc.
 
Upvote 0

Rev20

Partial Preterist
Jun 16, 2014
1,988
71
✟13,267.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Perfect.
If you can show me these events in history, Im all ears.. And please, dont even try and tell me that Antiochus fulfilled the Abomination, that would mean Christ was giving a reverse prophecy that was already fulfilled.

If you don't mind, I would like to explain that bit of history.

How could the disciples possibly know what Christ was talking about if it was not already a part of Jewish history? The abomination caused by Antiochus around 175 BC was the reason for the creation of the feast of dedication, mentioned in John 10:22; so the disciples would have been familiar with it.

The Apocryphal books, 1st and 2nd Maccabees, found in the Septuagint, which was the common old testament in use in first-century Judaea, explained how Antiochus was responsible for the abomination of around 175 BC. The one in Daniel 9, the next abomination, occurred around 70 AD.

The Apocrypha were part of the 1611 King James version of the Bible for over 250 years, until about 1885, and is widely studied even today. So most commentators/historians are familiar with it. These are a few commentaries on Daniel 12:11:

"The event fixed from which the time of the trouble is to be dated, from the taking away of the daily sacrifice by Antiochus, and the setting up of the image of Jupiter upon the altar, which was the abomination of desolation. They must reckon their troubles to begin indeed when they were deprived of the benefit of public ordinances; that was to them the beginning of sorrows; that was what they laid most to heart. [2.] The continuance of their trouble; it shall last 1290 days, three years and seven months, or (as some reckon) three years, six months, and fifteen days; and then, it is probable, the daily sacrifice was restored, and the abomination of desolation taken away, in remembrance of which the feast of dedication was observed even to our Saviour's time, John x. 22." [Matthew Henry, "Matthew Henry Commentary Vol IV (Isa to Mal)." Christian Classics Ethereal Library, 1712, p.1595]

"Most modern scholars who follow the historical method seek an explanation of these varying numbers in the events following the defilement of the temple by Antiochus. The abomination that maketh desolate mentioned here certainly refers primarily to the altar of Jupiter, erected upon Jehovah’s altar of burnt offering, or to the statue of Jupiter which was doubtless in front of this altar." [Camden M Cobern, "Commentary on The Old Testament Vol III." Eaton & Mains, 1901, pp.414-415]

"As to this epoch, which probably is prophetically germinant and manifold; the profanation of the temple by Antiochus: (in the month Ijar of the year 145 B. C., till the restoration of the worship by Judas Maccabeus on the twenty-fifth day of the ninth month (Chisleu) of 148 B. C., according to the Seleucid era, 1290 days; forty-five days more elapsed before Antiochus’ death in the month Shebat of 148 B. C., so ending the Jews’ calamities [Maurer]);" [Jamieson, Fausset & Brown, "A Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible." S. S. Scranton Co., 1873, p.649]

This is Flavius Josephus, a first-century Jewish Priest and historian, on the same part of history:

"1. AT the same time that Antiochus, who was called Epiphanes, had a quarrel with the sixth Ptolemy about his right to the whole country of Syria, a great sedition fell among the men of power in Judea, and they had a contention about obtaining the government; while each of those that were of dignity could not endure to be subject to their equals. However, Onias, one of the high priests, got the better, and cast the sons of Tobias out of the city; who fled to Antiochus, and besought him to make use of them for his leaders, and to make an expedition into Judea. The king being thereto disposed beforehand, complied with them, and came upon the Jews with a great army, and took their city by force, and slew a great multitude of those that favored Ptolemy, and sent out his soldiers to plunder them without mercy. He also spoiled the temple, and put a stop to the constant practice of offering a daily sacrifice of expiation for three years and six months. But Onias, the high priest, fled to Ptolemy, and received a place from him in the Nomus of Heliopolis, where he built a city resembling Jerusalem, and a temple that was like its temple concerning which we shall speak more in its proper place hereafter." [Flavius Josephus, "Wars of the Jews." Christian Classics Ethereal Library, I.1.1]

The abomination of Daniel 9 that occurred during the Jewish-Roman War of the first century was mentioned by the early church father, Saint Clement of Alexandria, who lived about 150-217 AD:

"And thus Christ became King of the Jews, reigning in Jerusalem in the fulfillment of the seven weeks. And in the sixty and two weeks the whole of Judaea was quiet, and without wars. And Christ our Lord, "the Holy of Holies," having come and fulfilled the vision and the prophecy, was anointed in His flesh by the Holy Spirit of His Father. In those "sixty and two weeks," as the prophet said, and "in the one week," was He Lord. The half of the week Nero held sway, and in the holy city Jerusalem placed the abomination; and in the half of the week he was taken away, and Otho, and Galba, and Vitellius. And Vespasian rose to the supreme power, and destroyed Jerusalem, and desolated the holy place. And that such are the facts of the case, is clear to him that is able to understand, as the prophet said. " [Roberts & Donaldson, Clement of Alexandria, The Stromata or Miscellanies, "Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol 02: Fathers of the 2nd Century." Charles Scribner's Sons, 1913, Book I.XXI, p.329]

"We have still to add to our chronology the following,— I mean the days which Daniel indicates from the desolation of Jerusalem, the seven years and seven months of the reign of Vespasian. For the two years are added to the seventeen months and eighteen days of Otho, and Galba, and Vitellius; and the result is three years and six months, which is "the half of the week," as Daniel the prophet said. For he said that there were two thousand three hundred days from the time that the abomination of Nero stood in the holy city, till its destruction. For thus the declaration, which is subjoined, shows: "How long shall be the vision, the sacrifice taken away, the abomination of desolation, which is given, and the power and the holy place shall be trodden under foot? And he said to him. Till the evening and morning, two thousand three hundred days, and the holy place shall be taken away. " [Roberts & Donaldson, Clement of Alexandria, The Stromata or Miscellanies, "Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol 02: Fathers of the 2nd Century." Charles Scribner's Sons, 1913, Book I.XXI, pp.333-334]

That is most likely not what you have been taught, but it is history.
:)
.
 
Upvote 0

shturt678s

Regular Member
Dec 11, 2013
2,733
118
✟10,797.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Single
Ive never heard what you are talking about here before, and to be quite frank, it makes no sense.



I dont have any more questions for you, thank you for your time.

You don't want to become as infamous as me with Satan being personally bound at the Cross at Rev.20:2. Been putting forth the binding of Satan at the Cross for almost 3 decades meaning that he shall not personally prevent the heralding of the gospel to all the nations. Once the nations were without this heralding, all were under the deception of Satan personally. One nation alone had the Word.

I know all the former appears fallacious to insane, however would be humorous if was a valid interpretation of Rev.20:2, etc. when we find out later???

Sorry that the former doesn't make any sense???

Old, trying to make sense out of it, Jack

Appreciate you and your words sir.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,492
28,587
73
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,240.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Originally Posted by LastSeven
I believe the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel is the large eagle that king Herod had placed over the the gate of the temple. I believe this Eagle was the cause of the rebellion and was the start of the time of great distress, "such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be".
Originally Posted by OneAccordRM
Sorry, that would mean Christ pointed to a prophecy that was already fulfilled.

Any other guesses?

Lets look at this again.

Mat 24:15 "So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),

Basically what you are saying Christ said is this:

"So when you see the eagle statue that no longer exists, spoken of Daniel the Prophet standing in the Holy Place"

Do you see why that makes no sense?
Originally Posted by LastSeven
First of all, you need to drop the attitude and stop talking to me like I'm in grade four. I think you'll find that you and I are a lot closer in our beliefs than you think.
Secondly, I'm pretty sure the Eagle was erected by King Herod after Jesus' death and resurrection, and this eagle is what led to the rebellion, which led to the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem and destroying the temple in 70 AD.

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus
Interesting. First I have heard of that.....Thanks for bringing that up.
Wonder what year that happened?

The Golden Eagle is Cut to Pieces. Herod's Barbarity when He was Ready to Die. He Attempts to Kill Himself. He Commands Antipater to be Slain.

Now the king had put up a golden eagle over the great gate of the temple, which these learned men exhorted them to cut down; and told them, that if there should any danger arise, it was a glorious thing to die for the laws of their country; because that the soul was immortal, and that an eternal enjoyment of happiness did await such as died on that account; while the mean-spirited, and those that were not wise enough to show a right love of their souls, preferred a death by a disease, before that which is the result of a virtuous behavior...............

Originally Posted by OneAccordRM
Herod the Great died in 4 bc nearly 25 years before Christ was crucified.

The Herod eagle connection as the abomination is impossible.

Connection refuted.
Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus
Ahhh, I thought y'all were talking about the Herod spoken of in the NT. My bad.........
Act 12:
1 Now about that time Herod the king stretched out his hand to harass some from the church.

Sorry, should have been more specific.

Herod in acts died in 37bc I believe, with Herod the great in 4bc.
:confused:
Not sure how you arrive at that.
How then could King Herod in Acts kill James and attempt to seize Peter, the 2 Apostles of Jesus?

Act 12
1 Now about that time Herod the king stretched out his hand to harass some from the church.
2 Then he killed James the brother of John with the sword.
3 And because he saw that it pleased the Jews, he proceeded further to seize Peter also.
Now it was during the Days of Unleavened Bread.



.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Upvote 0

OneAccordRM

You hated Christ before you hated me.
Jul 25, 2014
760
15
✟959.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
If you don't mind, I would like to explain that bit of history.

How could the disciples possibly know what Christ was talking about if it was not already a part of Jewish history? The abomination caused by Antiochus around 175 BC was the reason for the creation of the feast of dedication, mentioned in John 10:22; so the disciples would have been familiar with it.

The Apocryphal books, 1st and 2nd Maccabees, found in the Septuagint, which was the common old testament in use in first-century Judaea, explained how Antiochus was responsible for the abomination of around 175 BC. The one in Daniel 9, the next abomination, occurred around 70 AD.

The Apocrypha were part of the 1611 King James version of the Bible for over 250 years, until about 1885, and is widely studied even today. So most commentators/historians are familiar with it. These are a few commentaries on Daniel 12:11:

"The event fixed from which the time of the trouble is to be dated, from the taking away of the daily sacrifice by Antiochus, and the setting up of the image of Jupiter upon the altar, which was the abomination of desolation. They must reckon their troubles to begin indeed when they were deprived of the benefit of public ordinances; that was to them the beginning of sorrows; that was what they laid most to heart. [2.] The continuance of their trouble; it shall last 1290 days, three years and seven months, or (as some reckon) three years, six months, and fifteen days; and then, it is probable, the daily sacrifice was restored, and the abomination of desolation taken away, in remembrance of which the feast of dedication was observed even to our Saviour's time, John x. 22." [Matthew Henry, "Matthew Henry Commentary Vol IV (Isa to Mal)." Christian Classics Ethereal Library, 1712, p.1595]

"Most modern scholars who follow the historical method seek an explanation of these varying numbers in the events following the defilement of the temple by Antiochus. The abomination that maketh desolate mentioned here certainly refers primarily to the altar of Jupiter, erected upon Jehovah’s altar of burnt offering, or to the statue of Jupiter which was doubtless in front of this altar." [Camden M Cobern, "Commentary on The Old Testament Vol III." Eaton & Mains, 1901, pp.414-415]

"As to this epoch, which probably is prophetically germinant and manifold; the profanation of the temple by Antiochus: (in the month Ijar of the year 145 B. C., till the restoration of the worship by Judas Maccabeus on the twenty-fifth day of the ninth month (Chisleu) of 148 B. C., according to the Seleucid era, 1290 days; forty-five days more elapsed before Antiochus’ death in the month Shebat of 148 B. C., so ending the Jews’ calamities [Maurer]);" [Jamieson, Fausset & Brown, "A Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible." S. S. Scranton Co., 1873, p.649]

This is Flavius Josephus, a first-century Jewish Priest and historian, on the same part of history:

"1. AT the same time that Antiochus, who was called Epiphanes, had a quarrel with the sixth Ptolemy about his right to the whole country of Syria, a great sedition fell among the men of power in Judea, and they had a contention about obtaining the government; while each of those that were of dignity could not endure to be subject to their equals. However, Onias, one of the high priests, got the better, and cast the sons of Tobias out of the city; who fled to Antiochus, and besought him to make use of them for his leaders, and to make an expedition into Judea. The king being thereto disposed beforehand, complied with them, and came upon the Jews with a great army, and took their city by force, and slew a great multitude of those that favored Ptolemy, and sent out his soldiers to plunder them without mercy. He also spoiled the temple, and put a stop to the constant practice of offering a daily sacrifice of expiation for three years and six months. But Onias, the high priest, fled to Ptolemy, and received a place from him in the Nomus of Heliopolis, where he built a city resembling Jerusalem, and a temple that was like its temple concerning which we shall speak more in its proper place hereafter." [Flavius Josephus, "Wars of the Jews." Christian Classics Ethereal Library, I.1.1]

The abomination of Daniel 9 that occurred during the Jewish-Roman War of the first century was mentioned by the early church father, Saint Clement of Alexandria, who lived about 150-217 AD:

"And thus Christ became King of the Jews, reigning in Jerusalem in the fulfillment of the seven weeks. And in the sixty and two weeks the whole of Judaea was quiet, and without wars. And Christ our Lord, "the Holy of Holies," having come and fulfilled the vision and the prophecy, was anointed in His flesh by the Holy Spirit of His Father. In those "sixty and two weeks," as the prophet said, and "in the one week," was He Lord. The half of the week Nero held sway, and in the holy city Jerusalem placed the abomination; and in the half of the week he was taken away, and Otho, and Galba, and Vitellius. And Vespasian rose to the supreme power, and destroyed Jerusalem, and desolated the holy place. And that such are the facts of the case, is clear to him that is able to understand, as the prophet said. " [Roberts & Donaldson, Clement of Alexandria, The Stromata or Miscellanies, "Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol 02: Fathers of the 2nd Century." Charles Scribner's Sons, 1913, Book I.XXI, p.329]

"We have still to add to our chronology the following,— I mean the days which Daniel indicates from the desolation of Jerusalem, the seven years and seven months of the reign of Vespasian. For the two years are added to the seventeen months and eighteen days of Otho, and Galba, and Vitellius; and the result is three years and six months, which is "the half of the week," as Daniel the prophet said. For he said that there were two thousand three hundred days from the time that the abomination of Nero stood in the holy city, till its destruction. For thus the declaration, which is subjoined, shows: "How long shall be the vision, the sacrifice taken away, the abomination of desolation, which is given, and the power and the holy place shall be trodden under foot? And he said to him. Till the evening and morning, two thousand three hundred days, and the holy place shall be taken away. " [Roberts & Donaldson, Clement of Alexandria, The Stromata or Miscellanies, "Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol 02: Fathers of the 2nd Century." Charles Scribner's Sons, 1913, Book I.XXI, pp.333-334]

That is most likely not what you have been taught, but it is history.
:)
.

Im familiar with Josephus and the Apocryphal texts, which I reject canonically on the grounds that God doesnt give errors to his prophets and the Jews reject them.

More on that later.
 
Upvote 0

OneAccordRM

You hated Christ before you hated me.
Jul 25, 2014
760
15
✟959.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
:confused:
Not sure how you arrive at that.
How then could King Herod in Acts kill James and attempt to seize Peter, the 2 Apostles of Jesus?

Act 12
1 Now about that time Herod the king stretched out his hand to harass some from the church.
2 Then he killed James the brother of John with the sword.
3 And because he saw that it pleased the Jews, he proceeded further to seize Peter also.
Now it was during the Days of Unleavened Bread.



.

I dont see issue, perhaps you could point it out?
 
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,492
28,587
73
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,240.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Originally Posted by OneAccordRM

Ive never heard what you are talking about here before, and to be quite frank, it makes no sense
I dont have any more questions for you, thank you for your time.
:D
So what else is new.........
You don't want to become as infamous as me with Satan being personally bound at the Cross at Rev.20:2. Been putting forth the binding of Satan at the Cross for almost 3 decades meaning that he shall not personally prevent the heralding of the gospel to all the nations. Once the nations were without this heralding, all were under the deception of Satan personally. One nation alone had the Word.

I know all the former appears fallacious to insane, however would be humorous if was a valid interpretation of Rev.20:2, etc. when we find out later???

Sorry that the former doesn't make any sense???

Old, trying to make sense out of it, Jack

Appreciate you and your words sir.
Aren't we all! ^_^

Neh 8:8
So they read distinctly from the book, in the Law of God;
and they gave the sense, and helped them to understand the reading.


.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,492
28,587
73
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,240.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Originally Posted by OneAccordRM
Sorry, should have been more specific.
Herod in acts died in 37bc I believe, with Herod the great in 4bc.
Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus
:confused:
Not sure how you arrive at that.
How then could King Herod in Acts kill James and attempt to seize Peter, the 2 Apostles of Jesus?


I dont see issue, perhaps you could point it out?
Huh?

What is there to point out?

I was just correcting your own error concerning the Herod in Acts......

.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.