Amillennialism blown away by Revelation 20

[Jensghost]

Revelation 20


1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.



Revelation 20 is very specific about what is going on. The amillennial viewpoint suggests that the 1000 years is just a really long time that the entire church has been in for the last 2000 years but John's Revelation makes it clear that the 1000 years is yet future and literal.

Rev. 20 says that those who died refusing to take the mark are resurrected and reign with Christ 1000 years. It says the rest of the dead do not rise until the 1000 years are over. Therefore, there is a millenial reign of Christ and the church over mortals on earth that is yet to come.

Here is the amillenial position:

. Amillennialists insist that the promises made to national Israel, David and Abraham, in the OT are fulfilled by Christ and the Church during this age, which is the millennium, that is the entire period of time between the two advents of our Lord. The "thousand years" are therefore symbolic of the entire inter-advental age. Satan is bound by Christ's victory over him and the establishment of the kingdom of God via the preaching of the gospel, and Satan is no longer free to deceive the nations, through the presence of Christ is reigning in heaven during this period with the martyrs who come out of the great tribulation. At the end of the millennial age, Christ returns in judgement of all men. The general resurrection occurs, final judgement takes place for all men and women, and a new Heaven and Earth are established.
C. In most forms of amillennialism, immediately before the return of Christ, Satan is unbound, there is a great apostasy, and a time of unprecedented satanically inspired evil. This last Satanic gasp and subsequent rebellious activity is destroyed by our Lord at his return.

Eschatology Chart

 

[Jensghost]

Genesis also proves Amillenialism to be incorrect.

Gen 2:17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Adam lived to be 939 years. In the millenial day that he ate of the fruit, he died. He did not die in the 24-hour day that he ate the fruit, he died in the millenial day.

That was the first millenial day in the 7 millenial day plan that we practice weekly, as commanded by God.

The apostles understood that one day is as 1000 years:

2Pe 3:8But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

The psalmist understood that with God, one day is as 1000 years.

Psa 90:4For a thousand years in thy sight [are but] as yesterday when it is past, and [as] a watch in the night.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Amillennialism blown away by Revelation 20

Interesting.
Then why isn't that doctrine viewed as "unorthodox/heretical" here on CF Or is it?

 

[Jensghost]

Amillennialism blown away by Revelation 20

Interesting.
Then why isn't that doctrine viewed as "unorthodox/heretical" here on CF Or is it?

You'd have to ask the administrators that question. I didn't realize what it was, myself, until someone came along preaching it on this forum, and I had to look it up outside of Scripture to understand what he was talking about.

 

[Optimax]

Genesis also proves Amillenialism to be incorrect.

Gen 2:17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Adam lived to be 939 years. In the millenial day that he ate of the fruit, he died. He did not die in the 24-hour day that he ate the fruit, he died in the millenial day.

That was the first millenial day in the 7 millenial day plan that we practice weekly, as commanded by God.

The apostles understood that one day is as 1000 years:


2Pe 3:8But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

The psalmist understood that with God, one day is as 1000 years.

Psa 90:4For a thousand years in thy sight [are but] as yesterday when it is past, and [as] a watch in the night.

Gen 5:5
And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.
KJV


When Adam decided to disobey God and ate of the tree he died then. Took him 930 year to die physically.

If Adam had not have suffered a death then Jesus would not need to come to redeem us.

God said he would die in the day he ate and he did. He died spiritually, became separated from God. When we are born again through Jesus we are reconciled back to God and join God's Family.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

You'd have to ask the administrators that question. I didn't realize what it was, myself, until someone came along preaching it on this forum, and I had to look it up outside of Scripture to understand what he was talking about.

This is the reason given by Staff for moving my thread on Matthew 24 from the GT board over to the UT board.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7392923-39/#post52748967

They could have at least moved it to the Eschatology board me thinks.
Not really worth the bother to ask why things are the way they are on CF, so I just go with flow now

 

[Jensghost]

Gen 5:5
And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.
KJV


When Adam decided to disobey God and ate of the tree he died then. Took him 930 year to die physically.

If Adam had not have suffered a death then Jesus would not need to come to redeem us.

God said he would die in the day he ate and he did. He died spiritually, became separated from God. When we are born again through Jesus we are reconciled back to God and join God's Family.

Yes, that too. At the moment of his act of disobedience, he recognized he was naked. He lost his spiritual connection to God.

This is pure speculation and maybe a little silly, but it makes me wonder if they glowed under the power of God, had "white robes" like we will get when our bodies are changed when we are caught up to God and then lost it, realizing their nakednes, when they disobeyed.

 

[Optimax]

Yes, that too. At the moment of his act of disobedience, he recognized he was naked. He lost his spiritual connection to God.

This is pure speculation and maybe a little silly, but it makes me wonder if they glowed under the power of God, had "white robes" like we will get when our bodies are changed when we are caught up to God and then lost it, realizing their nakednes, when they disobeyed.

Well lets see just a couple of verses.

They were made in God's image and likeness.

Gen 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
KJV

God (believe this to be the Pre-Incarnate Christ) was described like this.

Ezek 8:2
Then I beheld, and lo a likeness as the appearance of fire: from the appearance of his loins even downward, fire; and from his loins even upward, as the appearance of brightness, as the colour of amber.
KJV

I believe they were "fire" from the waist up and from the waist down also.

That's why they did not know they were naked until the fire went out when they disobeyed God, and they were exposed.

 

[Jensghost]

Well lets see just a couple of verses.

They were made in God's image and likeness.

Gen 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
KJV

God (believe this to be the Pre-Incarnate Christ) was described like this.

Ezek 8:2
Then I beheld, and lo a likeness as the appearance of fire: from the appearance of his loins even downward, fire; and from his loins even upward, as the appearance of brightness, as the colour of amber.
KJV

I believe they were "fire" from the waist up and from the waist down also.

That's why they did not know they were naked until the fire went out when they disobeyed God, and they were exposed.

Yeah, this too:

Daniel 7:9I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.


Mat 17:2There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light.

Isn't there a scripture about Moses glowing having just been in the presence of God?

 

[mannysee]

Jensghost,

The Amil understanding of that Rev. chapter is that this is a vision which is revealing events to come, along with what has taken place already
i.e. John is seeing beyond the scope of his time.

The Beast (if I am correct) in Reformed understanding is talking about one? of the Roman emporers at that time.
You can look up yourself the history of christian persecution (including "souls that were beheaded") which waxed and waned under the 3-5? Roman Caesers.

Also, I don't believe it is correct to take the verse "a thousand years is as one day" from one writer, and then apply this same meaning to the 1000 years in Rev. We must be very careful with this method of cut and paste theology.

Kim Riddlebarger's book The Man of Sin includes discussion of this history around John's time and afterward. Along with his Amil 101 audio series at his blog.

 

[eclipsenow]

Revelation 20 is very specific about what is going on. The amillennial viewpoint suggests that the 1000 years is just a really long time that the entire church has been in for the last 2000 years but John's Revelation makes it clear that the 1000 years is yet future and literal.

This would fail both Year 10 English and Year 10 Debating. Evidence of your assertions please? The vast majority of uses of the number 1000 just mean a 'really long time' and we've been here and done that 1000 times before already!

 

[Jensghost]

This would fail both Year 10 English and Year 10 Debating. Evidence of your assertions please? The vast majority of uses of the number 1000 just mean a 'really long time' and we've been here and done that 1000 times before already!

That's just it. Revelation 20 describes specific things that you cannot point to and say it occured in the last 2000 years.

This is specific, prime example #1:

Rev 20:4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years


The people who are being resurrected are those who did not take the mark of the beast and died for it. The mark of the beast hasn't even been implemented yet. The beast isn't even in power yet.

An Amillennialist cannot say that this occured in the last 2000 years. It is future - all of it.

 

[eclipsenow]

Jensghost,

The Amil understanding of that Rev. chapter is that this is a vision which is revealing events to come, along with what has taken place already
i.e. John is seeing beyond the scope of his time.

The Beast (if I am correct) in Reformed understanding is talking about one? of the Roman emporers at that time.
You can look up yourself the history of christian persecution (including "souls that were beheaded") which waxed and waned under the 3-5? Roman Caesers.

Also, I don't believe it is correct to take the verse "a thousand years is as one day" from one writer, and then apply this same meaning to the 1000 years in Rev. We must be very careful with this method of cut and paste theology.

Kim Riddlebarger's book The Man of Sin includes discussion of this history around John's time and afterward. Along with his Amil 101 audio series at his blog.

Excellent post. And if people really want to understand the reason that the VAST MAJORITY of Protestant Christians from St Augustine to the reformers like Luther and Calvin have all been Covenant theology Amils, then you can listen to Kim Riddlebarger's excellent lectures here at his blog. Look on the right hand side, and you'll not just get "Amil 101" but "Covenant theology V Dispensational Theology" 101 all in the one series.

Riddleblog - Welcome

Premillennial and other literal readings of Revelation are a relatively recent aberration in American Christianity that have placed silliness such as "The Late Great Planet Earth" of the 70's and Tim LaHaye's "Left behind" silliness up in the New York Times best-seller list. It's just sad. It shows a remarkable decline in the literacy rates of the church. They can't recognise certain genre's.

As for Jen, her strategy seems to be to invade so many threads — and even start new ones — with her theories that even if they are comprehensively rebutted in one thread, she'll just start another. Way to go Jen! Keep ignoring the rebuttals I've made in other threads to every single point you've just repeated again in this thread, and you'll get a certain kind of internet reputation.

For instance, I'm still waiting for a response to my Gen 6:3 rebuttal of your rather 'outside of the text' claim that it is actually to do with the end of the world and beginning of the Millennium! Wow. When God was limiting the human lifespan to 120 years. That's amazing reading!

You'd have to ask the administrators that question. I didn't realize what it was, myself, until someone came along preaching it on this forum, and I had to look it up outside of Scripture to understand what he was talking about.

Nice! I’m now running off to count the number of times my brother-in-law burps, and then multiply that by the number of years the Israelites were in captivity to find out how long until the END OF THE WORLD! Stay tuned for a thread on “Burp-Chronology revealed: amazing new timetable for the end of the world!”

 

[eclipsenow]

Rev 20:4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years


The people who are being resurrected are those who did not take the mark of the beast and died for it. The mark of the beast hasn't even been implemented yet. The beast isn't even in power yet.

I can’t believe you’re going to act like we have not already discussed this?

The souls are the ‘first resurrection‘ — the Saints in Heaven! They ‘live again’ in heaven! (Sighs)

You just can’t have resurrection believers living along side mortal believers because:-

• the clearer parts of scripture describe Christian ‘sheep’ rising to new life and the non-Christian ‘goats’ rising to judgement at the same time

• The Corinthians passage I’ve quoted repeatedly says that mortal flesh cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, which I take to be the Millennium because of the way Jesus literally reigns on a throne from Jerusalem (in your literal reading of it)

• The clearer parts of scripture also describe the New Heavens and New Earth occurring at the same time as the resurrection! Clearly, if the Millennium is about Jesus reigning from the Middle-East, that hasn’t happened yet!

Your reading of a literal Millennium is not only ignoring the literary cues in the passage about how to read it, but is violently contradicting the clear teaching of the rest of the New Testament on Judgement Day.

But instead, as Kim Riddlebarger says:

There is, in addition, a quite serious side effect produced by this approach to Bible prophecy: The Bible no longer speaks for itself because it is twisted into a pretzel by each of its interpreters, who do their best to show that the upheaval of the nations described in the Book of Revelation has nothing whatsoever to do with the original reader in the first century struggling under Roman persecution, but is instead somehow related to the morning headlines.

How many times can we tell our hearers that Jesus is coming back soon (No, we really mean it this time!) and then tie that message to a passing despot like Saddam Hussein or a tenuous political figure like Mikhail Gorbachev? How do we keep those who need to hear about Christ's Second Advent the most from becoming increasingly cynical about the message of his coming? But then again this too is a sign of the end, for scoffers will come and say "where is this 'coming' he promised?" (2 Pt 3:3-4).

How tragic that prophecy speculators actually contribute to the very skepticism they themselves acknowledge as a key sign of the end.

The classical Protestant tradition has helpful answers to these problems, as it does to many other crises facing the modern church that, by and large, have been forgotten by today's Evangelicals.

All of the Protestant Reformers, were they to come back to give us counsel in these areas, would insist that we must start with the notion that the Bible itself must be read with the analogia fidei (the analogy of faith), meaning that Holy Scripture must be allowed to interpret Scripture. In other words, we must inductively develop a biblical model of eschatology by utilizing all of the passages that relate to the return of Christ, the resurrection, the judgement, the millennium, and so on.

We should never study eschatology merely by finding Bible verses (often out of context) that we think describe current events. And so, by utilizing the analogy of faith, we begin with the clear declarations of Scripture regarding the coming of our Lord and use them to shed light on passages that are less clear. Following this method, we can clear up many of the bizarre mysteries fabricated by modern prophecy devotees, who insist upon making unclear and difficult passages the standard by which we interpret clear and certain verses. If this basic hermeneutical principle is followed, we will soon find that we can no longer interpret all of the Bible by the Book of Revelation. Instead, we must read the Book of Revelation through the rest of the Bible. Historic Protestants would also insist, for example, that Revelation interprets the book of Daniel and not vice versa. The New Testament must be allowed to interpret the Old. There is nothing particularly difficult or profound in this, and following this basic principle of Bible study facilitates a clearer understanding of Bible prophecy.

If anything is a non-Biblical aberration, it is all the literal Millennial chronologies that insist that 'times time they've got it right'. (Pull the other one, it plays jingle bells!) Can't chronology tragics realise that they are just as on the nose as all the Jehovah's Witnesses failed prophecies? :o


http://kimriddlebarger.squarespace.com/from-the-archives/Present or future millennium revised.pdf

 

[eclipsenow]

PS: I'll try and tone down the sarcasm for a moment. If you really want to understand Millennialism, try reading this paper which will only take about 20 minutes.

http://kimriddlebarger.squarespace.com/from-the-archives/Present%20or%20future%20millennium%20revised.pdf

I have cut and paste the last 3 pages below, which are the heart of the argument. It should take about 5 to 7 minutes to read.

**********

If we begin with clear passages of Scripture, we can construct a very simple, basic model to help us with the weirder, tougher passages. One such approach is known as the “two-age” model. Both Jesus and Paul, for example, speak of “this age” and the “age to come” as distinct eschatological periods of time (Mt 12:32; Lk 18:30; 20:34-35; Eph 1:21). For both our Lord and the apostle, there are two contrasting ages in view. The first age (spoken of as “this age” in the New Testament) is the present period of time before the Second Coming of Christ. The second age, a distinctly future period of time, is referred to as “the age to come.” When these two ages (“this age” and “the age to come&#8221 are placed in contrast with each other, we are able us to look at the qualities ascribed by the biblical writers to each in such a way that we can answer questions about the timing of the return of Christ and the nature and timing of the millennium.

When we look at the qualities ascribed to “this age” by the biblical writers, we find that the following are mentioned: “homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children, and fields–and with them persecutions” (Mk 10:30); “The people of this age marry and are given in marriage” (Lk 20:34); the scholar, philosopher and such wisdom are of “this age” (1 Cor 1:20); secular and religious rulers dominate (1 Cor 2:6-8); “the god of this age [Satan] has blinded the minds of unbelievers” (2 Cor 4:4); this age is explicitly called “the present evil age” (Gal 1:4); ungodliness and worldly passions are typical of it (Ti 2:12). All of these qualities are temporal, and are certainly destined to pass away with the return of our Lord. “This age” is the age in which we live, and is the age in which we struggle as we long for the coming of Christ and the better things of the age to come.

By marked contrast however, “the age to come” has an entirely different set of qualities ascribed to it: There will be no forgiveness for blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (Mt 12:32); it is preceded by signs (Mt 24:3); it is characterized by eternal life (Mk 10:30; Lk 18:30); is also denoted as a time when there is no marriage or giving in marriage (Lk 20:35); and it is which is characterized by “life that is truly life” (I Tm 6:19). These qualities are all eternal, and are indicative of the state of affairs and quality of life after the return of Christ. In other words, these two ages, the present (“this age&#8221 and the future (the “age to come&#8221 stand in diametrical opposition to one another. One age is temporal; the other is eternal. One age is characterized by unbelief and ends in judgement; the other is the age of the faithful and is home to the redeemed. It is this conception of biblical history that dominates the New Testament.

It is also imperative to see that the same contrasts which Jesus and Paul make between these two ages are in turn related to the one event that forever divides them, the return of Christ. This line of demarcation is expressly stated in Scripture. “The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. . . This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous” (Mt. 13:39-49). These statements are the type of clear and unambiguous texts mentioned earlier. Notice that according to this text judgement occurs immediately at Christ's return, not after a one-thousand year millennium (as in the premillennial scheme). This is not the only line of Biblical evidence, however, for in addition to this we can find other such statements about the coming of Christ that fit very clearly into the two-age model.

According to Scripture, the resurrection of both the just and the unjust occurs simultaneously. Jesus expressly states that he will raise believers up on the “last day” (Jn 6:39, 40, 44, 54; 11:24).

Thus we told quite clearly that the resurrection of the just occurs on the last day, at the end of this age. In addition, Jesus also proclaims that “There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day” (John 12:48). Notice that the very same event is also said to be the time of judgment for those who reject Christ. Add to these important passages those additional verses that, relate the trumpet of God to the “last day” and to the return of Christ. The return of Christ will occur “in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed” (1 Co. 15:52; cf. 1 Thes 4:16). Notice that there are no gaps of time indicated between the resurrection and the judgement. These texts collectively speak of the resurrection, the judgment, and the return of Christ as distinct aspects of but one event, occurring at precisely the same time (cf. Mt 25:31-46).

Premillennialists, who often chide amillennialists for not taking the Bible “literally” and who champion what they call the “literal” interpretation of Scripture, must now insert a thousand-year gap between the Second Coming of Christ (and the resurrection) and the Final Judgment to make room for the supposed future millennial reign of Christ! And this, ironically, when the clear declarations of Scripture do not allow for such gaps.

Thus, we can conclude that “this age”–the period of time Peter calls the “last days” (Acts 2:17), and which Jesus characterizes as a period of birth pains of wars, earthquakes, famine, and distress (Mt 24, Mk 13)–ends with the return of Christ, the resurrection and the judgement on the “last day.” An event that, by the way, Peter describes like the “day of the Lord [which] will come as a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare” (2 Pt 3:10).

It is only after this that the age to come will be a present and visible reality. Notice that the focus is not upon a half-way kingdom and somewhat improved temporal age on the earth (i.e., a future millennium). Instead, the biblical focus is upon the consummation and the summing up of all things with the creation of the new heavens and the new earth! The return of Jesus Christ is the key event in biblical prophecy. For when our Lord Jesus Christ returns, the end of the age, the resurrection, the judgment, and the creation of the new heavens and the new earth are at hand!

Thus the two-age model is very simple in its structure and is based on texts that can only be described as clear and straightforward. This enables us to make the following conclusions about the nature of the New Testament’s teaching regarding the return of Christ and the timing of the millennial age.

First, the “last days” began with the coming of Christ and will continue until Christ returns (Acts 2:17; Heb 1:2). This period of time, “this age,” is destined to pass away, and is characterized by war, famine, environmental distress, persecution and even the martyrdom of God's people (Rv 20:4-6). While there is every likelihood that this distress will increase in the period immediately before the return of Christ, no one knows the day or the hour of our Lord’s return. Further, Jesus’ birth pain imagery most likely means that we should expect alternating periods of peace and intensifying evil that will cause many to unduly speculate about the immanent return of Christ. These are sharp, stabbing birth pains, but not they are not the birth itself. Therefore, our preoccupation should not be with signs of the end, but instead we must be consumed with the task assigned to the church in the last days: the proclamation of the gospel of the kingdom.

Second, the return of Christ clearly marks an end to the temporal nature of life as we know it–“this present evil age.” At his return, Jesus will raise the believing dead, judge all men, and send the wicked into the fires of Hell. The elements of this Earth burn up and the new heavens and earth will be established. This scenario completely destroys much of contemporary evangelical prophetic speculation, which advocates a secret coming of Christ and the rapture of believers (and what text can be adduced to argue that Jesus comes back secretly?) a full seven years before the final judgement at Christ's bodily return. Does Jesus come back once or twice, with one of them being secret? Such speculation is nonsense when viewed in light of the clear gospel texts cited above, which universally describe the return of Christ, the resurrection of the dead and the judgment of believers and unbelievers as parts of one event. This scenario also destroys the idea of a future earthly millennial reign of Christ after he returns in judgment. Since this supposed thousand-year reign occurs after the eternal destiny of all men and women is forever settled in the judgment, the very thought of Jesus ruling over a world wherein there are still men and women in natural bodies repopulating the Earth is simply not supported by clear texts (remember the one about no marriage?).

If the millennial reign described in Revelation 20 is actually referring to a future period of time, another even more significant problem arises. At the end of the one thousand years, John tells us that there is a great apostasy (a second fall if you will) while Jesus is ruling the nations with the rod of iron (Rv 20:7-10). This sounds much more like something that would happen in this age, and when viewed against (2 Thes 2:1-12) an often overlooked parallel passage where a great apostasy occurs before the man of sin is revealed (v. 3), the case for a present millennial age becomes even stronger. Since there can be no people on earth in natural bodies after the judgement (which occurs when Christ comes back according to the clear texts we have seen above), these apostates can only be those same believers that Jesus raised from the dead at his return. In other words, if premillennialism is correct, then it is glorified saints follow Satan and revolt against Christ! But are we really to believe that evil is not finally conquered at Christ’s return–even where Jesus is physically reigning and judgement has already occurred? Of course not, and this is self-evidently refuted by the analogy of faith, which expressly tells us that Jesus will destroy all of his enemies and hand the kingdoms of the world over to his Father (1 Cor 15:24) at his second coming. On closer investigation, we see that the events in Revelation 20 do not take place on the Earth at all, for the thrones described in that passage are in heaven, and not on the Earth. Furthermore, in a book such as Revelation, where numbers are always used symbolically, it makes much more sense to argue that the one thousand years are symbolic of the period of time between the first and second comings of Christ, rather than see them as a literal future period with a second fall during Jesus' kingly rule after the judgment. Thus the existence of evil and the supposed apostasy of glorified believers in a future millennial age poses a very difficult problem for all forms of premillennialism.

Third, and most importantly, the two-age model places its entire focus upon Jesus Christ and his second coming and not on idle speculation regarding world events. In the classical Protestant model, the next event on the prophetic calendar is the return of Jesus Christ to Earth. In fact, Jesus may even return before you finish reading this article! The eschatological cry of Protestant orthodoxy has always been, “Maranatha; Come quickly Lord Jesus!” As with many other things in life the simplest approach may be the best. The two-age model is clear, biblical, and Christn centered. It refuses to allow undue speculation about current events to overturn the clear teaching of Scripture. It is a shame that it has been lost to so many Christians.

Dr. Kim Riddlebarger is a graduate of California State University in Fullerton (B.A.), Westminster Theological Seminary in California (M.A.R.), and Fuller Theological Seminary (Ph.D.). Kim has contributed chapters to books such as Power Religion: The Selling Out of the Evangelical Church, Roman Catholicism: Evangelical Protestants Analyze What Unites & Divides Us, and Christ The Lord: The Reformation & Lordship Salvation, and is currently the pastor of Christ Reformed Church in Anaheim, California.

 

[Optimax]

Yeah, this too:

Daniel 7:9I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.


Mat 17:2There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light.

Isn't there a scripture about Moses glowing having just been in the presence of God?

Your right. There is.

2 Cor 3:13
And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
KJV

Ex 34:33-35:1

33 And till Moses had done speaking with them, he put a vail on his face.

34 But when Moses went in before the Lord to speak with him, he took the vail off, until he came out. And he came out, and spake unto the children of Israel that which he was commanded.

35 And the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses' face shone: and Moses put the vail upon his face again, until he went in to speak with him.
KJV

 

[Jensghost]

Excellent post. And if people really want to understand the reason that the VAST MAJORITY of Protestant Christians from St Augustine to the reformers like Luther and Calvin have all been Covenant theology Amils, then you can listen to Kim Riddlebarger's excellent lectures here at his blog. Look on the right hand side, and you'll not just get "Amil 101" but "Covenant theology V Dispensational Theology" 101 all in the one series.

Riddleblog - Welcome

Premillennial and other literal readings of Revelation are a relatively recent aberration in American Christianity that have placed silliness such as "The Late Great Planet Earth" of the 70's and Tim LaHaye's "Left behind" silliness up in the New York Times best-seller list. It's just sad. It shows a remarkable decline in the literacy rates of the church. They can't recognise certain genre's.

As for Jen, her strategy seems to be to invade so many threads — and even start new ones — with her theories that even if they are comprehensively rebutted in one thread, she'll just start another. Way to go Jen! Keep ignoring the rebuttals I've made in other threads to every single point you've just repeated again in this thread, and you'll get a certain kind of internet reputation.

For instance, I'm still waiting for a response to my Gen 6:3 rebuttal of your rather 'outside of the text' claim that it is actually to do with the end of the world and beginning of the Millennium! Wow. When God was limiting the human lifespan to 120 years. That's amazing reading!


Nice! I’m now running off to count the number of times my brother-in-law burps, and then multiply that by the number of years the Israelites were in captivity to find out how long until the END OF THE WORLD! Stay tuned for a thread on “Burp-Chronology revealed: amazing new timetable for the end of the world!”

Ok, there's something big you guys are missing. We don't need any man to teach us, so says scripture. So, when a person starts quoting the opinions of men instead of scripture on this forum, they lose a little bit of credibility. Why are they listening to the opinions of men when they should be listening to the Holy Spirit?

1Jo 2:27As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit-just as it has taught you, remain in him.


Isa 30:21Whether you turn to the right or to the left, your ears will hear a voice behind you, saying, "This is the way; walk in it."


Jhn 14:26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.


If people don't read the Bible and listen to God for themselves, they will follow false or errant teachings. Yes, the Bible is full of symbolism and has many levels and I doubt a lifetime of studying it would be enough time to comprehend it all.

So with all due respect to Mr. Riddlebarger's analysis, I can see that he is dismissing some very pertinent parts of Scripture to hold on to his conclusions.

 

[Jensghost]

I can’t believe you’re going to act like we have not already discussed this?

The souls are the ‘first resurrection‘ — the Saints in Heaven! They ‘live again’ in heaven! (Sighs)

You just can’t have resurrection believers living along side mortal believers because:-

• the clearer parts of scripture describe Christian ‘sheep’ rising to new life and the non-Christian ‘goats’ rising to judgement at the same time

• The Corinthians passage I’ve quoted repeatedly says that mortal flesh cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, which I take to be the Millennium because of the way Jesus literally reigns on a throne from Jerusalem (in your literal reading of it)

• The clearer parts of scripture also describe the New Heavens and New Earth occurring at the same time as the resurrection! Clearly, if the Millennium is about Jesus reigning from the Middle-East, that hasn’t happened yet!

I am not trying to tick you off but you are not addressing the specifics of Rev 20 where it does not say what you said it does about who they are but something even more specific that securely places the timeframe of the first resurrection, and who is involved in it, as post-2nd advent of Christ.

And yes, there will be immortals among mortals.

Isaiah 61:9And their seed shall be known among the Gentiles, and their offspring among the people: all that see them shall acknowledge them, that they are the seed which the LORD hath blessed.
10I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.

Rev 5:10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

1Cr 6:2Do you not know that the saints will judge the world?

Exactly whom are we reigning over as kings and priests of God?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Ok, there's something big you guys are missing. We don't need any man to teach us, so says scripture. So, when a person starts quoting the opinions of men instead of scripture on this forum, they lose a little bit of credibility. Why are they listening to the opinions of men when they should be listening to the Holy Spirit?

1Jo 2:27As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit-just as it has taught you, remain in him.

Isa 30:21Whether you turn to the right or to the left, your ears will hear a voice behind you, saying, "This is the way; walk in it."

Jhn 14:26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

If people don't read the Bible and listen to God for themselves, they will follow false or errant teachings. Yes, the Bible is full of symbolism and has many levels and I doubt a lifetime of studying it would be enough time to comprehend it all.

So with all due respect to Mr. Riddlebarger's analysis, I can see that he is dismissing some very pertinent parts of Scripture to hold on to his conclusions.

Preach it sister!

 

[Codger]

Dispensationalists fight for their "truth" and in doing so have to trash the Amillennial view mostly by saying that all prophesy has to be fulfilled literally. Then they are free to move it to the future where they speculate on its fulfillment. In order to be safe they have to keep it all in the future because in the past every time they commit to anything it doesn't come to pass. Why would prophesy that was written in Apocalypic language be fulfilled literally anyway?

The greatest enemy of the Dispensationalists is the record of history that shows what prophesy has been fulfilled and what is not; and there isn't much left to be fulfilled today. The Amillennial view has very high credibility, because it is based on the record of history. Dispensationalism/Futurism has zero credibility as not one single speculation in the past 62 years has ever come to pass - not one! Of all of the numerous times I have put forth this challenge - I have never ever gotten one reply - not one.

So when Dispensationalists correct us and try to force their radical, sensational, exciting, errant, and spectacular eschatology down our throats - show us where your record of credibility is - you don't have a shread of credibility none zero. So why should you be correcting us Amils who have a trove of historical data for what we believe?