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Amillenialism and the nation of Israel

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by mister rogers, May 4, 2019.

  1. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member

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    Jesus, in “this generation shall not pass”, is clearly speaking in reference to the prophecy of future events.

    “This generation”, is clearly referring to the generation in the future that will see the final prophecies fulfilled... and then says... “this generation” in reference to those that witness the presence of the literal anti-Christ that speaks “from the temple of God”... which Jesus identifies the “the temple of God” as “Himself”.

    Thus, we see a false Jesus May rise up. There is an Eschatology that foretells a “different” Jesus, “rising up”... in end days... that is absolutely not the “Biblical Jesus”.

    To force “This generation shall not pass”, upon the people Jesus is Prophesying to, is utterly unnecessary, per the context of all Gospels, including the phrase.

    Revelation 1:7 makes this abundantly clear and utterly dismantles the argument that He has come already, or that “This generation shall not pass” applies to the people Jesus was speaking to.

    Facts.
     
  2. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    He already wipes away all my tears.
    Every tear I shed, He is there, wiping them away.
    He doesn’t do the same for you right now?
    You’re still waiting for that?
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2019
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  3. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member

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    No, your context understanding is completely off base. We still weep and cry, here and now! That is just intellectually impossible to say with certainty, what you are saying, as the verse reads. The Bible is Spiritual, but when Jesus says ALL tears will be wiped away, through the Angel, speaking to John... it becomes obvious this is a literal wiping away of tears.

    Bottom line, the “Feast” is why the people are weeping and gnashing their teeth.

    If you study it out without adjusting your text, eisogetically, you will see that you are forcing square pegs into round holes.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2019
  4. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    So, again, are you asserting we won't even be allowed to cry tears of Joy?
     
  5. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    You just lost the argument when you say "That scripture is utterly unnecessary to the people it was directly spoken to".

    Fact:
    The cloud-coming of Revelation 1:7 that "every eye would see" is shown in Revelation 14:14-20 to be an event that occurs in the heavenly realms. As the passage reveals, Christ's actions and commands in the heavenlies result in various tribulation-period disasters that transpire on earth. Simply put, Revelation 14:14-20 is the cloud-coming that "every eye would see." This is significant, for St. John is not describing the coming of Christ as some visual spectacular with cumulus clouds in the skies overhead, but as the coming of Yahweh himself, making Christ equal with the Father. Jesus promised his apostles that he would return in their lifetimes "in the glory of the Father" (Matt 16:27-28; Lk. 9:26; Matt 24:33-34). Christ's return at AD 67-70 was precisely in the manner and tradition of Yahweh's Old-Testament-era comings. We have countless examples of the Father coming in His great glory during the Old Testamental period (be sure to note the graphic, physical descriptions and explicit "visual" connotations of Yahweh's comings):

    [On Yahweh's coming to Egypt -- early 700s BC] Behold, Yahweh rides on a swift cloud, and comes to Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. I will stir up the Egyptians against the Egyptians (Isaiah 19:1-2)

    [On Yahweh's coming during the Maccabean Period] For I have bent Judah for me, I have filled the bow with Ephraim; and I will stir up your sons, Zion, against your sons, Greece, and will make you as the sword of a mighty man. Yahweh shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning; and the Lord Yahweh will blow the trumpet, and will go with whirlwinds of the south. Yahweh of Hosts will defend them; and they shall devour, and shall tread down the sling-stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, like the corners of the altar. Yahweh their God will save them in that day (Zechariah 9:13-16)

    [On Yahweh's coming to Israel for Babylonian Exile - 6th Century BC] Therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: Because you are turbulent more than the nations that are round about you, and have not walked in my statutes, neither have kept my ordinances, neither have done after the ordinances of the nations that are round about you; therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: Behold, I, even I, am against you; and I will execute judgments in the midst of you before the eyes of the nations. I will do in you that which I have not done, and whereunto I will not do any more the like, because of all your abominations (Ez 5:7-9)

    [On Yahweh's coming to Israel for Babylonian Exile - 6th Century BC] As I live, says the Lord Yahweh, surely with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out, will I be king over you: and I will bring you out from the peoples, and will gather you out of the countries in which you are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out; and I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there will I enter into judgment with you face to face...Hear the word of Yahweh: Thus says the Lord Yahweh, Behold, I will kindle a fire in you, and it shall devour every green tree in you, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burnt thereby. All flesh shall see that I, Yahweh, have kindled it...Thus says Yahweh: Behold, I am against you, and will draw forth my sword out of its sheath, and will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked. Seeing then that I will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of its sheath against all flesh from the south to the north: and all flesh shall know that I, Yahweh, have drawn forth my sword out of its sheath (Ez 20:33-35,47-48; 21:3-5)

    Jehovah hath made bare His holy arm before the eyes of all nations (Isa 52:10)

    These are just a few examples of the Father's Old-Testament comings, but there are many others: Yahweh came down and shot arrows at Saul and his armies, shaking the earth's foundations and the heavens at that time (2 Sam 22:8-16); Yahweh is depicted as having destroyed the universe when he judged Israel through Babylon (Jer 4:22-30), and did so again when he judged Egypt by Babylon's King Nebuchadnezzar (Ez 32:1-16). The Father entered into judgments with Egypt and Assyria in a spectacular coming in Isaiah 31. Habakkuk's depiction of Jehovah's coming at Mt. Sinai is nothing less than apocalyptic (Hab 3:3-16). Were any of these OT comings visual, physical/literal appearances of Yahweh as the prophets describe in metaphorical prophetic language? Of course not (Jn 1:18; 1 Jn 4:12)--the Hebrews understood that no human could ever see Yahweh and live (Exodus 33:20).

    Importantly, these comings of the Father form the entire backdrop for the doctrine of the "coming" of Christ, for it was in this manner of the Father's glory that Christ said he would come (Matt 16:27-28; Lk. 9:26; Matt 24:33-34).

    As stated in Matthew 21:40-45, the Lord of the Vineyard came to the apostate leaders of first-century Israel and was The Stone that crushed them to powder, removing the Kingdom of God from them and giving it to a new Nation. Jesus Christ, the Lord of heaven and earth, came in the glory of the Father and did so in the lifetimes of the apostles, exactly as he promised (Matt 16:27-28; 24:33-34).
     
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  6. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member

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    Easy Peasy...

    The words... (This Generation shall not pass) are spoken in relation to a future generation that hasn’t been born yet, and contains a list of many events that are to happen first, before the events are considered complete. At the point the events are complete, The generation alive at their completion will not pass as they are in the last days.

    No big.

    Done.

    Contextually true to Jesus’ words.

    Jesus makes sense, full Preterists don’t. :oldthumbsup:
     
  7. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Every time Jesus uses the Phrase "This Generation' in scripture he uses it to refer to the then present, final Generation He lived during. The Final Generation of the Age He was Born into, namely the Mosaic Age.

    every time.

    And we know from scripture that generation was the Biblical Last days generation.

    Any view that has to force and twist such plain scripture out of it's given context, merely to suit an extra biblical bias, ought be rejected by the honest bible expositor.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2019
  8. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member

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    Your opinion is that; “Every time Jesus uses the Phrase "This Generation” in scripture he uses it to refer to the then present Generation He was born into and lived during.”... yet you have somehow believed many events in Revelation that bind to Jesus’ words have taken place, when it’s obvious they haven’t.

    You’ve made an error somewhere? Will you compromise your opinion for facts or deliberate eisogetics to compensate?

    Matthew makes it clear physical bodies resurrected... upon Christ’s Death. Did the rest of the Dead raise too? 1000 years according to Revelation, Be they literal or Spiritual... need to pass before the Dead are Raised that are not in Christ.

    Zombie (<~ used for humor) apocalypse recorded in history, where?
     
  9. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    No.
    Not my opinion.
    Biblical Fact.

    Matthew 11:16
    “But to what shall I liken this generation? It is like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling to their companions,

    Matthew 12:41
    The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is here.

    Matthew 12:42
    The queen of the South will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and indeed a greater than Solomon is here.

    Matthew 12:45
    Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first. So shall it also be with this wicked generation.”

    Matthew 23:36
    Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

    Matthew 24:34
    Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.

    Mark 8:12
    But He sighed deeply in His spirit, and said, “Why does this generation seek a sign? Assuredly, I say to you, no sign shall be given to this generation.”

    Mark 8:38
    For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”

    Mark 13:30
    Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.

    Luke 7:31
    And the Lord said, “To what then shall I liken the men of this generation, and what are they like?

    Luke 11:29
    [ Seeking a Sign ] And while the crowds were thickly gathered together, He began to say, “This is an evil generation. It seeks a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of Jonah the prophet.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
    Luke 11:30
    For as Jonah became a sign to the Ninevites, so also the Son of Man will be to this generation.

    Luke 11:31
    The queen of the South will rise up in the judgment with the men of this generation and condemn them, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and indeed a greater than Solomon is here.

    Luke 11:32
    The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is here.

    Luke 11:50
    that the blood of all the prophets which was shed from the foundation of the world may be required of this generation,

    Luke 11:51
    from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah who perished between the altar and the temple. Yes, I say to you, it shall be required of this generation.

    Luke 17:25
    But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.

    Luke 21:32
    Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all things take place.
     
  10. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member

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    Well then let me break it to you gently, The one place it matters proves you wrong.

    The second coming is Corporeal per ALL scripture and again... the New Earth hasn’t caused the Old one to flee yet.

    In context, biblically, it easily reads “this generation shall not pass”... towards a future generation.

    How do we know this has to be the case? Because Jesus is the Truth and all of that hasn’t been fulfilled yet.

    It can be Spiritualized in a less than accurate way (Down playing how incorrectly it gets Spiritualized)... but... Matthew to Revelation holds the winning hand... and Old Testament Prophecy that remains unfulfilled also trumps the hand up towards “Future Generation”.
     
  11. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member

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    1 Thessalonians 3 - 1 Thessalonians 4 ...

    Hasn’t happened yet. Whether it’s a rapture or otherwise... the event hasn’t happened yet.

    Period. This forces us to know with certainty, “This Generation shall not pass”... spoken in “Future Prophecy” tense <~ Undeniable! Is about the Generation of the last days.
     
  12. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    I am glad we agree that death has been defeated for believers.
     
  13. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member

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    But death has not been physically cast away and Peter reveals why...

    The Purchase of Jesus didn’t just Benefit believers, but Unbelievers to.

    This is why they too will be resurrected to Judgment, instead of condemnation. Some will be condemned and others will be saved.

    Death still remains. Thus we cannot evoke Eschatological scripture that is Post death cast away yet.

    There is a misconception on the Preterism side that misses that the fact that we Physically die, still proofs that all Tears have not been wiped away, nor has Revelation 20, Revelation 21 and Revelation 22 played out yet.
     
  14. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member

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    The Jerusalem Above is in Heaven.

    Jesus is seated in Heaven.

    Literal Death, as in the Physical casting away of death, hasn’t happened yet.

    This is why your point is self defeating. You appear to be attempting to proof one aspect of partial accomplishment into the Full aspect of accomplishment, which is only fulfilled when the New Jerusalem is brought down, and the New Heaven and New Earth are a Physical Reality.
     
  15. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member

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    Put it this way... There will no longer ever be war in Heaven, because of the events in Revelation 12... that have been fulfilled.

    The woman standing on the Moon with 12 stars crowning her is renewed and protected.

    The Spiritual Remnant of Israel is within her, while the physical remnant has not yet been revealed in full.

    There is still War on earth and there will be one final Spiritual War on earth...

    Then all will be fulfilled.

    All being fulfilled, pertaining to death, hasn’t happened yet, else death of the physical nature would not still be occurring.
     
  16. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member

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    Earth 1.0 and Heaven 1.0 Now

    Earth 1.0 and Heaven 2.0 Future

    It is not Eschatologically correct to say the earth and Heaven 2.0 tenses are to be used now.

    If a post DBR revision must be made... think Heaven and Earth 1.5, but quit saying we’re already on the new OS model!

    We simply received some software revisions....!
     
  17. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    Physical death is a present reality. Believers Physically die all the time.

    Believers never dying is also a present reality.

    This doesn't sound very beneficial to unbelievers

    The resurrection from the natural body to the spiritual body does not occur until the parousia, I believe we agree on this?

    1 Corinthians 15:22-23, 44 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual

    Our difference in interpretation is on the earthly timing of the parousia. I believe those in Christ, upon their physical death, never die and are raised into their spiritual body to be with the Lord.

    You appear to believe that those in Christ, who have physically died, are still waiting to be raised from the dead into their spiritual body to be with the Lord.


    And there is very earthly materialistic misconception on the futurist's side. The fact that Paul could rejoice in his suffering is very telling.

    Does Christ wipe away your tears when he brings you through a trial or no, you are still waiting on that?
     
  18. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member

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    We bypass judgment and spiritually live, but we indeed physically die.

    All tiers aren’t wiped away yet.

    Even in Heaven, there will be an outcry about the injustice of the earth... this is a biblical fact.

    All is not complete yet.

    Don’t forget the parable where all are paid the same, despite the time they “work” the fields.

    This is imperative to remember.
     
  19. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member

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    The word Preterism may seem applicable in many circles, but suggesting that the New Jerusalem is already here, or All tears are wiped away... or “Most” Future Prophecy is Fulfilled is where I can safely say, I am not a “Preterist”.
     
  20. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    I just wanted to add that I see a key phrase in Revelation 21:4 that ought to be pointed out:

    Rev 21:4 ~ "....... for the old order of things has passed away."
    Doesn't that seem to signify a change of some sort?

    What do you believe the "old order of things" is - and are we still waiting for it to pass away? I believe that if a person IS still waiting for the "old order of things" to pass away - then they are ALSO needing to include their salvation - their personal resurrection to life - is something they are also waiting for. As Claninja is pointing out (how I am understanding, anyway).....THIS is the "old order" that was overturned (it's continually being done through Christ's death and resurrection):

    1 Corinthians 15:22 ~ For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2019
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