America's Poor Live Better Than Most Of Humanity

[stamperben]

I really don't like it when a nutty poster derails a thread, but then again, the thread has lasted for almost sixty pages anyway and there's nothing new I have to add to it. If you don't understand that because America is the richest country on earth, that the median household income is higher than 90% of the world's people, and that the bottom 5% of Americans live better than 68% of the world's people, that's honestly not my problem.

YES! Thank God for the poverty in the United States of America!

And that's NO derail.

 

[wintermile]

YES! Thank God for the poverty in the United States of America!

And that's NO derail.

No! Thank God for Martin Luther King, Jr.

"While we are mindful of the shocking fact that less than one-half of all non-white workers are covered by the Fair Labor Standards Act, we do not speak for Negro workers only. A living wage should be the right of all working Americans, and this is what we wish to urge upon our Congressmen and Senators as they now prepare to deal with this legislation."—Statement on minimum wage legislation, March 18, 1966

AFT - A Union of Professionals - Martin Luther King Jr. Talks about the Labor Movement

 

[stamperben]

No! Thank God for Martin Luther King, Jr.

"While we are mindful of the shocking fact that less than one-half of all non-white workers are covered by the Fair Labor Standards Act, we do not speak for Negro workers only. A living wage should be the right of all working Americans, and this is what we wish to urge upon our Congressmen and Senators as they now prepare to deal with this legislation."—Statement on minimum wage legislation, March 18, 1966

AFT - A Union of Professionals - Martin Luther King Jr. Talks about the Labor Movement

Oh man, I don't know, that might go over more than a few heads in here...

 

[wintermile]

Oh man, I don't know, that might go over more than a few heads in here...

Kind of like this prose:

"Negroes are not the only poor in the nation. There are nearly twice as many white poor as Negro, and therefore the struggle against poverty is not involved solely with color or racial discrimination but with elementary economic justice…."

"Now most serious thinkers acknowledge that dislocations in the market operation of our economy and the prevalence of discrimination thrust people into idleness and bind them in constant or frequent unemployment against their will. The poor are less often dismissed from our conscience today by being branded as inferior and incompetent. We also know that no matter how dynamically the economy develops and expands, it does not eliminate all poverty."

"To a degree, we have been attacking the problem by increasing purchasing power through higher wage scales and increased Social Security benefits. But these measures are exercised with restraint and come only as a consequence of organized struggles…Those at the lowest economic level, the poor white, the Negro, the aged, are traditionally unorganized and have little or no ability to force a growth in their consumer potential. They stagnate or become even poorer in relation to the larger society."—Speaking to shop stewards of Local 815, Teamsters and the Allied Trades Council, May 2, 1967

AFT - A Union of Professionals - Martin Luther King Jr. Talks about the Labor Movement

In a think-less society that's what we get. Time for a society where all workers have a livable wage.

 

[Yoder777]

YES! Thank God for the poverty in the United States of America!

And that's NO derail.

I'd rather be a poor person in the United States than poor according to global standards. It's a fair contrast. Poverty is a relative term. The majority of the world's people would look at the bottom 5% of Americans and see them as rich.

I'd rather live in a country where the poor are richer than where the rich are poorer. How about you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oP60sIKKJWQ

 

[wintermile]

I'd rather be a poor person in the United States than poor according to global standards. It's a fair contrast. Poverty is a relative term. The majority of the world's people would look at the bottom 5% of Americans and see them as rich.

I'd rather live in a country where the poor are richer than where the rich are poorer. How about you?

Matt Mitchell Explains World Income Inequality - YouTube

Who looks at poor american youths who are subjected to gang violence and human trafficking as being rich?

Who looks at poor american families who face vile men in "man camps" and see them as rich?

AGs from all over the nation are talking about the sex trafficking crisis in the States. Our poor people, who are trafficked, do not look rich. The fact is our poor and vulnerable are targeted for sex slavery more and more everyday.


D.C. Gang Child Sex Trafficking Crimes Increasing, Report Says - Washington DC Criminal Defense Lawyer Blog


To become familar with the term "man camps" read the linked article.


Man Camps and Predator Economics Threaten Heartland Native Communities | Georgianne Nienaber

 

[Yoder777]

Here's some evidence that America is still the land of opportunity:

Studies by the Department of the Treasury of actual US tax returns demonstrate substantial income mobility in the US (1987-1996, 1996-2005). For instance, among those in the lowest income quintile in 1987, 60 percent of them experienced at least a fifty percent increase in their income by 1996 and median income increased 80.6 percent. Another way to look at this is that 61 percent of those in the lowest income quintile in 1987 were in a higher income quintile by 1996. Income mobility maintained approximately the same pace between 1996-2005. For instance, 64 percent among those in the lowest income quintile in 1987 experienced at least a fifty percent increase in their income by 2005, and median income increased 90.5 percent. Moreover, the second, third, and fourth income quintiles experienced 35, 23, and 17 percent median income growth respectively between 1996 and 2005. US Treasury data also show a great deal of volatility even for top income groups. For instance, incomes were cut in half among 59 percent for those in the top .01 percent between 1996 and 2005.

A great deal of income mobility coupled with increasing inequality suggests that people are traveling a further distance up the income ladder. In sum, it’s more meaningful to climb the economic ladder in the US than say, in Norway, where incomes are more equal, but the ladder doesn’t take you as far. Certainly, the 2008 financial crisis and pursuant sluggish economy have slowed down economic mobility, making income gaps more obvious. This may explain why in the September Reason-Rupe poll we found a sizable 37 percent of Americans who fear their children will have fewer opportunities to get ahead. At the same time 56 percent are optimistic their children will have more opportunities (27 percent) or the same opportunities (29 percent) to get ahead.
http://reason.com/poll/2012/11/02/despite-the-presidential-election-americ

That study, titled "Immigrant Entrepreneurs and Small Business Owners and their Access to Financial Capital," found that the business ownership rate of the immigrant workforce is 10.5 percent, which is higher than the 9.3 percent rate for the nonimmigrant (native) workforce.
The business-formation rate per month among immigrants is 620 out of 100,000 formations, or more than double the monthly rate of 280 out of 100,000 business formations by non-immigrants, according to that SBA study.
"Immigrant-owned businesses contribute greatly to the U.S. economy," the study stated. "Immigrants have high business formation rates, and many of the businesses they create are very successful, hire employees, and export goods and services to other countries."
Pang-White said, "I still see examples that if you work hard, opportunities open for you and you can always achieve the American dream."
Land of opportunity attracts immigrants - News - Citizens' Voice

 

[stamperben]

"...you can always achieve the American dream."

What is the American Dream?

Has it become Just Getting By?
Is it Just a Delusion?
It is Alive (but might need work)?

Here's what some PBS viewers who watched a film called Two American Families had to say.

 

[Yoder777]

What is the American Dream?

Has it become Just Getting By?
Is it Just a Delusion?
It is Alive (but might need work)?

Here's what some PBS viewers who watched a film called Two American Families had to say.

Please actually read the articles I just posted.

 

[Yoder777]

This short video explains the real truth on upward mobility in the United States:
Is there Income Mobility in America? - YouTube

People who are pessimistic about the average Americans' chance of financial success usually have an underlying socialist agenda. I am coming at this issue from a centrist position.

 

[stamperben]

Please actually read the articles I just posted.

I actually hear what you're saying. I just have something to say myself, in line with the topic.

 

[Yoder777]

In terms of upward mobility and the standard of living enjoyed by even the lowest income bracket, the United States is a great country, if not the greatest country, in the world to live. I've amply demonstrated this fact numerous times in this thread.

 

[Yoder777]

i am not the kind of person who thinks that american lives are automatically superior to the lives of people in other countries or that our government has a right to exert its will wherever it wants in the world. both of these views seem to me as dangerous, if not diabolical. when i think of america as an exceptional nation, i am referring to its prosperity, both cultural and economic, that resulted from its founding principles.

whether for well or ill, no nation since israel has been as influential on the shaping of world events as the united states. that causes me to question why and whether or not that influence, for the most part, or on balance, has been good or bad for the world. u2's album the joshua tree was precisely about this topic, as bono loved this country and what it's done for the world, while also recognizing its faults and shortcomings.

my emphasis in college was history, and thus i am very familiar with the injustices in our history, just as i also think that they presented a skewed view of what good our country has done. my view of america as an exceptional nation is closer to the pilgrim fathers who came to this country to flee religious persecution than like that of a nut job such as george w. bush. sadly, the nut jobs tarnish it for everybody.

 

[stamperben]

In terms of upward mobility and the standard of living enjoyed by even the lowest income bracket, the United States is a great country, if not the greatest country, in the world to live. I've amply demonstrated this fact numerous times in this thread.

Upward mobility? That flies in the face of facts.
The Loss of Upward Mobility in the U.S.

The Lost Decade of the Middle Class

As the 2012 presidential candidates prepare their closing arguments to America’s middle class, they are courting a group that has endured a lost decade for economic well-being. Since 2000, the middle class has shrunk in size, fallen backward in income and wealth, and shed some—but by no means all—of its characteristic faith in the future.

These stark assessments are based on findings from a new nationally representative Pew Research Center survey that includes 1,287 adults who describe themselves as middle class, supplemented by the Center’s analysis of data from the U.S. Census Bureau and Federal Reserve Board of Governors.

Fully 85% of self-described middle-class adults say it is more difficult now than it was a decade ago for middle-class people to maintain their standard of living. Of those who feel this way, 62% say “a lot” of the blame lies with Congress, while 54% say the same about banks and financial institutions, 47% about large corporations, 44% about the Bush administration, 39% about foreign competition and 34% about the Obama administration. Just 8% blame the middle class itself a lot.

Let me repeat that - Fully 85% of self-described middle-class adults say it is more difficult now than it was a decade ago for middle-class people to maintain their standard of living.

Is the United States a great country to live in? I'm pleased with the diversity of both it's people and geography, I'm blessed to have been born from the greatest generation it ever produced and benefited from the advances that generation made here - A strong union movement that did THEN provide an upward mobility to the people of the nation.

But now with the decline of those very unions who ensured prosperity there is a decline in our standard of living that is very evident. So evident that I take exception to conversations such as this one that tout the greatness of the country and seem to ignore it's fall from where it once stood in the world scheme.

So call me nutty, call me a derailer of your thread, but the facts are that for the MAJORITY of our citizens we are falling backward and without some sort of intervention life for that majority is going to become as it is in those third world countries that it is said we are so much better than.

 

[stamperben]

Yes, life in America can be good, very very good, especially if you're a Romney.
Circular stairway slide, indoor swing, color coded bookshelf, etc, etc, etc.

Gee, too bad about 99% of the rest of the citizens...

But if they can afford the bootstraps, they can pull themselves up by them. If they can have any cartilage left they can continue to put their nose to the grindstone, and just think! They too can have what the privileged have.

Yeah, right.

 

[Yoder777]

Upward mobility? That flies in the face of facts.
The Loss of Upward Mobility in the U.S.

The Lost Decade of the Middle Class

Let me repeat that - Fully 85% of self-described middle-class adults say it is more difficult now than it was a decade ago for middle-class people to maintain their standard of living.

Is the United States a great country to live in? I'm pleased with the diversity of both it's people and geography, I'm blessed to have been born from the greatest generation it ever produced and benefited from the advances that generation made here - A strong union movement that did THEN provide an upward mobility to the people of the nation.

But now with the decline of those very unions who ensured prosperity there is a decline in our standard of living that is very evident. So evident that I take exception to conversations such as this one that tout the greatness of the country and seem to ignore it's fall from where it once stood in the world scheme.

So call me nutty, call me a derailer of your thread, but the facts are that for the MAJORITY of our citizens we are falling backward and without some sort of intervention life for that majority is going to become as it is in those third world countries that it is said we are so much better than.

Wrong again. Please actually read this:

Studies by the Department of the Treasury of actual US tax returns demonstrate substantial income mobility in the US (1987-1996, 1996-2005). For instance, among those in the lowest income quintile in 1987, 60 percent of them experienced at least a fifty percent increase in their income by 1996 and median income increased 80.6 percent. Another way to look at this is that 61 percent of those in the lowest income quintile in 1987 were in a higher income quintile by 1996. Income mobility maintained approximately the same pace between 1996-2005. For instance, 64 percent among those in the lowest income quintile in 1987 experienced at least a fifty percent increase in their income by 2005, and median income increased 90.5 percent. Moreover, the second, third, and fourth income quintiles experienced 35, 23, and 17 percent median income growth respectively between 1996 and 2005. US Treasury data also show a great deal of volatility even for top income groups. For instance, incomes were cut in half among 59 percent for those in the top .01 percent between 1996 and 2005.

A great deal of income mobility coupled with increasing inequality suggests that people are traveling a further distance up the income ladder. In sum, it’s more meaningful to climb the economic ladder in the US than say, in Norway, where incomes are more equal, but the ladder doesn’t take you as far. Certainly, the 2008 financial crisis and pursuant sluggish economy have slowed down economic mobility, making income gaps more obvious. This may explain why in the September Reason-Rupe poll we found a sizable 37 percent of Americans who fear their children will have fewer opportunities to get ahead. At the same time 56 percent are optimistic their children will have more opportunities (27 percent) or the same opportunities (29 percent) to get ahead.
Despite the Presidential Campaign Season, Americans Still Believe US is a Land of Opportunity - Reason-Rupe Surveys : Reason.com

As you can see in the above facts, upward mobility is still alive and well in the United States.

 

[stamperben]

Wrong again. Please actually read this:



As you can see in the above facts, upward mobility is still alive and well in the United States.

Tell it to the 85% who today feel otherwise. Your survey is from almost ten years ago.

Let me repeat what I emphasized:

Fully 85% of self-described middle-class adults say it is more difficult now than it was a decade ago for middle-class people to maintain their standard of living.
​

MORE DIFFICULT NOW THAN A DECADE AGO.

We as a nation are in decline. Period. Bottom line.

 

[Yoder777]

I think we need to respectfully agree to disagree. The job market might be hard right now, but in comparison to a vast majority of the world's people, Americans are doing extremely well, including the bottom 5% of Americans.

The statistics I provided you are current as of 2005.

 

[stamperben]

I think we need to respectfully agree to disagree. The job market might be hard right now, but in comparison to a vast majority of the world's people, Americans are doing extremely well, including the bottom 5% of Americans.

We can and do disagree on much of this. Yes, overall our standard of living is better than much of the 3rd world. But we are a 1st world country with enormous wealth. The fact is that wealth is being hoarded by a few of our fellow citizens, to the detriment of the rest. And as you've said, we as a people are probably the most generous in the world. Can you imagine what help could be given the rest of the world if there were income equality here?

The statistics I provided you are current as of 2005.

Which invalidates them as to what is current right now.

 

[Ludicrus]

What is the American Dream?

Has it become Just Getting By?
Is it Just a Delusion?
It is Alive (but might need work)?

Here's what some PBS viewers who watched a film called Two American Families had to say.

The video isn't working but I believe I've already seen that one.

My husband and I live the American Dream in poverty.

We own our own home. We are debt free. We have enough to meet our needs.

That is basically because both of us listened to the Lord tell us to get prepared for the bad times ahead. We paid off our houses (I lived in another state and we weren't married to each other before the Bubble Burst). Paid off our vehicles. Didn't accrue a ton of debt expecting that everything would be hunky-dory.

We aren't greedy people. We don't have to continually strive to keep up with the Joneses. We've got our little piece of Paradise where we are at and we mind our own business.

God made it possible for us to get through what a lot of other people are/were devastated by. And yes, we are/were at poverty level.

Married, we are just a tad above being eligible for foodstamps.

But God continues to work all things together for our good. I might always be in the income bracket I am now, in fact, when I hit the 60's and my husband does too, we will both have reduced incomes. And I trust that God will continue to care for us even then.

We don't always get what we want (a lot of times we do), but we always get what we need.

I had to leave a LOT of stuff behind when I moved down here. I was widowed, worn and stressed out and I just didn't have the energy to try and hump all of that stuff to the yard and sell it.

All I brought with me was what could fit in the back of my pickup truck. And the things I left behind, God has already replaced in the short time I've been down here.

In fact, my cup runneth over. What took me over a decade to accumulate, all of my craft supplies, tools and books. All of my canning jars and other things that had cost me dearly, God has replaced.

There are programs in place to help those who live in poverty and mostly what those programs do is keep them in poverty. What America's poor needs is to get right with God and trust in their Heavenly Father who owns all the wealth and the cattle on a thousand hills.

If they were trusting in God, and following His directions, instead of trusting in government or politicians or themselves, they wouldn't be in the mess they are in.

And even when His children get into a mess, if they trust in Him, He leads them out into green pastures.