American Teachers Resign Over Oddly Similar Circumstances...

[Ana the Ist]

Yes. I mean we can rigorously test to see what peoples biases are and when they tend to appear.



I don't think all criticisms of meritocracy in college admissions are CRT, nor do I have to pretend to do so.



I suppose you think teaching about power dynamics wouldn't include the plethora of examples from history then?

I think I could personally put together an entire class on the subject of JUST historical examples of exactly what the lesson plan was talking about.



I'll look back through the thread when I have some time. It's about time for some sleep.



Sure, if you take "merit" at face value I would suppose it would seem very dumb.



I would call that demonstrated skill (a kind of merit). However there is a history of using the idea of merit to simply discriminate against those who haven't actually been given an opportunity to show that they can acquire such skills.

The idea we're missing of course is that people use resources to demonstrate their "merit" and some people have a lot more resources to devote to the task.



Not on purpose usually no. And no one (usually) is suggesting we completely do away with standard ways of testing in schooling.

However if you'd like to actually hear the other side of the argument it can be argued more persuasively:

Here for instance:
Why meritocracy is a myth in college admissions



Ok what work are you citing? If you want to criticize an idea actually do so.

And, what is the relevance? Is this what you think is making it into children's classrooms?

Did you read the article you linked?

It's not an argument against merit....it's an argument against shady admissions practices.

Perhaps you're not getting the idea that is getting put forward by CRT advocates.

They believe that there's no such thing as a "race nuetral" law, or policy, or practice. Just because the law against murder is the same whether you're black or white doesn't mean it isn't racist. The proof? Black people are disproportionately jailed for murder. That's the "proof" that somewhere, somehow, a systemic racism is putting innocent black men in jail, or letting guilty white men go free...or something. No one knows how it works.

Well they don't see academic disparities any differently.

White kids are getting 3.5 GPAs and black kids are averaging 3.0 GPAs? Grades are a white supremacist method of imposing systemic racism under the guise of a meritocracy. After all, some kids just learn differently. White people did set up the school system and it's roots reach all the way back to slavery days.

That's how you end up with people saying ridiculous stuff like...

Debate emerges over racism and white supremacy in Oregon math instruction

The course offering started to garner headlines, as some wondered how a topic like math instruction could be rooted in racism or white supremacy.

A Pathway to Equitable Math Instruction does offer an 82-page workbook on how teachers can "examine their actions, beliefs, and values around teaching mathematics." The group claims white supremacy culture can show up in the classroom in various ways, including when "the focus is on getting the 'right' answer," and when "students are required to 'show their work"

The group also says educators should try to "center ethnomathematics" by identifying and challenging the ways that "math is used to uphold capitalist, imperialist, and racist views."

Read the last sentence again. Notice anything political about that? Is it possible that these teachers are being told to push a set of political beliefs? Do you understand what political indoctrination is?

I can admit that if this was very isolated and affecting only a small number of children, I'd be more inclined to point and laugh because inevitably when these children graduate far behind their peers and don't seem to have any skills outside of political protest....I could simply point out how I was right and very little damage is done.

Unfortunately, this is on a scale where a lot of children are going to be victims of this, it's monstrously unethical, and the damage will potentially hurt our entire society....so I feel obligated to do the bare minimum and at least point it out now.

You see...it's not that some kids are better than others at math....that's a meritocratic white supremacist way of thinking. No...the problem is that math is too focused on getting the right answer and proving you got it by doing math. That's why the California curriculum wants to phase out the grades and advanced math courses. The idea that some math is advanced and some is basic is racially traumatizing black students who believe they are "basic" students.

I would hope that you would look at that and think it's cuckoo bananas...but why? It's the exact same logic that has been the bedrock of a huge part of the left's narrative surrounding racial justice for almost a decade. Racial disparities are the evidence of systemic racism. It doesn't require actual racists doing racist things...it's hidden deep down in the "system" and the only way to fix it, is to remove those grades and the idea that they actually reflect something real....like a difference of ability.

If we actually have different abilities, well those people who take advantage of what they're good at are going to cause inequalities and those inequalities will lead to disparities. Those disparities can't be caused by something other than systemic racism....that upsets the whole narrative.

That's what I mean when I say that woman is too stupid to be making decisions for education. If she genuinely believes it, or if she has bought into it because it's a political narrative and like most people...she doesn't really think about it, or if she realizes it is wrong but because this ideology has become pervasive in education she's afraid to speak out against it so she repeats it to make it sound like she's a team player....it doesn't really matter, she's unfit to educate children.

Though really, stupid would just apply to the first two reasons....if it's the third reason, she's an unethical coward.

 

[variant]

I don't know what you mean by "tend to appear".

The tests haven't been substantially linked to behavior. In fact, all evidence shows little to no link to behavior.

It would be more accurate to say we can test for bias, but we have no way of knowing if ir when it affects behavior.

If your contention is that biases won't go on to affect behavior feel free to cite your sources.

I can show you what she's talking about...she is talking about grade school...and she wants to remove the grades, and according to her tweets, they have in some San Francisco schools.

And is this how "CRT" is to be taught in schools? Or are you just going off on another tangent.

You couldn't defend the material on its own terms...so you want to make it about something it isn't, history.

You can contend that if you like. I think that any social study is going to be steeped in historical example.

I don't know what you're suggesting. Medical schools should first give applicants a chance to demonstrate medical skills before they are taught medical skills?

I can't think of a practical application for what you're suggesting and I can easily think of a thousand ways it can be disastrous.

Hey guy, I know you haven't demonstrated the ability to make vaccines but some people think the problem is that you just haven't been given a chance to make vaccines yet...

I'm suggesting that there is an arms race to get into places like medical schools that is nearly completely unesssiary and dominated by those that can most pay to prepare for it.

The average "merit" of the admitted student is going up with no increase in competency of the final product.

Example?

I can have 10 million dollars to create a business and if I don't have the skills/merit to run it....that business will inevitably fail regardless of how much money I throw at it.

I can agree that I have the ability to prolong my failure with 10 million more than I would with 200k....but I can't think of any undertaking where I can just ignore merit and resourse my way to success.

How it works in business is the baseline skills you need go up as the resources go down. With 10 million you will be able to buy the experience to compete with someone who has 200k.

You have, 50 times the resources. Not impossible no, but in that fight it takes a lot of incompetence or real genius to tip the scales.

Funny you should say that...that's exactly what they're suggesting.

If I can show you where California, under it's new curriculum guidelines, wants to do away with math grading completely (because it not only rejects the idea of merit, it also rejects natural talent, and genius) would you at least be willing to admit that perhaps you don't really understand what is being proposed in some schools these days by the left?

I'd point out that this is the natural conclusion once you start to go along with the idea that a disparity exists only because of racism and oppression. It's not only bad logic and obviously wrong...it's dangerous.

Well then I am against that, but, since what we are discussing keeps morphing to some other complaint, it's hard to actually have the discussion.

Somehow I don't think this is going to be about how Affirmative Action already tips the scales away from merit.

Unless you think there is merit in doing more with less.

It's one of the fundamental assumptions of CRT. I can quote Derrick Bell if you like...and provide the source...

Frankly though, you're going to have to stop pretending that these ideas are all unrelated. I showed you where CRT rejects the idea of race nuetrality....and I shouldn't have to explain why that also means it rejects meritocracy (especially when it says so).

You're asking me what the relevance is and I've literally drawn you a straight line between the concepts of CRT, the ideas of teachers and school administrators, the teachers who are quitting over the exact same ideas, and even the impact these ideas have had on curriculum.

Yet you're still asking me "what is the relevance"?

Would you prefer if I line these things up in one post for you?

Yes. I would like to see how Derrick Bell is being taught to school children, rather than just argue with an amorphous blob of ideas you don't like and have grouped together.

Since conservatives seem to be interested in banning CRT, they are going to have to do a good job in defining what they mean by that precisely.

 

[variant]

Did you read the article you linked?

It's not an argument against merit....it's an argument against shady admissions practices.

Perhaps you're not getting the idea that is getting put forward by CRT advocates.

They believe that there's no such thing as a "race nuetral" law, or policy, or practice. Just because the law against murder is the same whether you're black or white doesn't mean it isn't racist. The proof? Black people are disproportionately jailed for murder. That's the "proof" that somewhere, somehow, a systemic racism is putting innocent black men in jail, or letting guilty white men go free...or something. No one knows how it works.

Well they don't see academic disparities any differently.

White kids are getting 3.5 GPAs and black kids are averaging 3.0 GPAs? Grades are a white supremacist method of imposing systemic racism under the guise of a meritocracy. After all, some kids just learn differently. White people did set up the school system and it's roots reach all the way back to slavery days.

That's how you end up with people saying ridiculous stuff like...

Debate emerges over racism and white supremacy in Oregon math instruction

The course offering started to garner headlines, as some wondered how a topic like math instruction could be rooted in racism or white supremacy.

A Pathway to Equitable Math Instruction does offer an 82-page workbook on how teachers can "examine their actions, beliefs, and values around teaching mathematics." The group claims white supremacy culture can show up in the classroom in various ways, including when "the focus is on getting the 'right' answer," and when "students are required to 'show their work"

The group also says educators should try to "center ethnomathematics" by identifying and challenging the ways that "math is used to uphold capitalist, imperialist, and racist views."

Read the last sentence again. Notice anything political about that? Is it possible that these teachers are being told to push a set of political beliefs? Do you understand what political indoctrination is?

I can admit that if this was very isolated and affecting only a small number of children, I'd be more inclined to point and laugh because inevitably when these children graduate far behind their peers and don't seem to have any skills outside of political protest....I could simply point out how I was right and very little damage is done.

Unfortunately, this is on a scale where a lot of children are going to be victims of this, it's monstrously unethical, and the damage will potentially hurt our entire society....so I feel obligated to do the bare minimum and at least point it out now.

You see...it's not that some kids are better than others at math....that's a meritocratic white supremacist way of thinking. No...the problem is that math is too focused on getting the right answer and proving you got it by doing math. That's why the California curriculum wants to phase out the grades and advanced math courses. The idea that some math is advanced and some is basic is racially traumatizing black students who believe they are "basic" students.

I would hope that you would look at that and think it's cuckoo bananas...but why? It's the exact same logic that has been the bedrock of a huge part of the left's narrative surrounding racial justice for almost a decade. Racial disparities are the evidence of systemic racism. It doesn't require actual racists doing racist things...it's hidden deep down in the "system" and the only way to fix it, is to remove those grades and the idea that they actually reflect something real....like a difference of ability.

If we actually have different abilities, well those people who take advantage of what they're good at are going to cause inequalities and those inequalities will lead to disparities. Those disparities can't be caused by something other than systemic racism....that upsets the whole narrative.

That's what I mean when I say that woman is too stupid to be making decisions for education. If she genuinely believes it, or if she has bought into it because it's a political narrative and like most people...she doesn't really think about it, or if she realizes it is wrong but because this ideology has become pervasive in education she's afraid to speak out against it so she repeats it to make it sound like she's a team player....it doesn't really matter, she's unfit to educate children.

Though really, stupid would just apply to the first two reasons....if it's the third reason, she's an unethical coward.

It was an argument that merit in admissions is something of a myth.

So, your example of this being implemented is a workbook offered in Oregon that was canceled?

It seems like they're going to have to do a better job being taken seriously if that is their best effort.

 

[Ana the Ist]

If your contention is that biases won't go on to affect behavior feel free to cite your sources.

My contention is that tests for implicit or unconscious bias don't have any connection to behavior. I actually already linked evidence to this, but hey, why not do it again for the 20th time?

The Creators of the Implicit Association Test Should Get Their Story Straight


The problem, as I showed in a lengthy rundown of the many, many problems with the test published this past January, is that there’s very little evidence to support that claim that the IAT meaningfully predicts anything. In fact, the test is riddled with statistical problems — problems severe enough that it’s fair to ask whether it is effectively “misdiagnosing” the millions of people who have taken it, the vast majority of whom are likely unaware of its very serious shortcomings. There’s now solid research published in a top journal strongly suggesting the test cannot even meaningfully predict individual behavior. And if the test can’t predict individual behavior, it’s unclear exactly what it does do or why it should be the center of so many conversations and programs geared at fighting racism.

So you might be able to test for biases....but they don't mean anything regarding behavior.

And is this how "CRT" is to be taught in schools? Or are you just going off on another tangent.

Are we at the point now where you admit the concepts in CRT are being taught in schools?

 

[Ana the Ist]

It was an argument that merit in admissions is something of a myth.

No...it's argument against crooked admissions and certain types of admissions (like the large donations admissions) that nobody is really claiming are merit based.

Show me the guy claiming that a student who's father donated a couple of million to Harvard got into Harvard based on merit, and then you might have a point.

 

[variant]

So you might be able to test for biases....but they don't mean anything regarding behavior.

The idea here is to get folks to understand the bias so we can teach behavior, neither of which is problematic when teaching something like critical thinking, or science (bias being bad for objectivity).

Are we at the point now where you admit the concepts in CRT are being taught in schools?

It would be hard for that to not be true in the broadest sense if concepts such as racial bias would count.

What would be helpful for your side of the argument would be a comprehensive definition of what you're complaining about so that I can easily tell when CRT is and isn't present.

Sorry if it's hard to buy into a frenzy over radical ideas being taught to students if the pitch requires me to do most of the heavy lifting for myself.

Your examples (to me when asked) so far have been, a math course for teachers that was odd enough to not actually get into use. A syllabus on social studies that points out how cultures treat one another in a way you don't like. And someone arguing for a different viewpoint on merit (on twitter).

Only one of these was actually something to be taught to students and you're problem with it was that it assumes cultures don't tend to get along nicely.

Color me underwhelmed at the prospect of radical ideas making their way to kids.

 

[variant]

No...it's argument against crooked admissions and certain types of admissions (like the large donations admissions) that nobody is really claiming are merit based.

Show me the guy claiming that a student who's father donated a couple of million to Harvard got into Harvard based on merit, and then you might have a point.

The article mentions practices like "test prep" so, you should maybe go back and read it again.

 

[Ana the Ist]

The article mentions practices like "test prep" so, you should maybe go back and read it again.

Yeah...but that doesn't make sense, since preparing is an application of merit, and there are many free test preparation programs that are available to everyone wealthy or otherwise. I don't really agree that studying for a test makes the results non-merit based.

 

[Ana the Ist]

The idea here is to get folks to understand the bias so we can teach behavior

Sorry, teach behavior?

Like a "moral indoctrination"?

It would be hard for that to not be true in the broadest sense if concepts such as racial bias would count.

What would be helpful for your side of the argument would be a comprehensive definition of what you're complaining about so that I can easily tell when CRT is and isn't present.

Page 2.

 

[variant]

Yeah...but that doesn't make sense, since preparing is an application of merit, and there are many free test preparation programs that are available to everyone wealthy or otherwise. I don't really agree that studying for a test makes the results non-merit based.

Then you may be missing the point that virtually everything we know already tilts the playing field in favor of resources rather than merit.

 

[variant]

Sorry, teach behavior?

Like a "moral indoctrination"?

You're now officially complaining about teaching people not to lean into their biases when making judgements about people who have different races and skin color.

When stuff like that happens you should take a step back think about how you got there.

 

[variant]

Page 2.

And yet I would have completely missed all three of your examples if that were my definition.

Maybe I could track back the one that was a lesson plan for teachers that didn't get used.

As I explained earlier the college level CRT simply isn't making it into kids classrooms in that format. But rather, it seems anything to do with race making it into the schools is instead being branded as CRT (making it a bit of a buzz word).

I actually did a few searches online for examples of CRT in children's classrooms and couldn't find much of substance.

Your best example in this thread (a lesson plan for actually teaching children) when asked by me was something I really don't have much problem with. Your big complaint was that it teaches what dominate cultures do to other cultures, instead of teaching I guess that they sometimes don't do that.

A good definition will tell me when something is CRT and when something is not, so I don't think your definition is all that good on page 2.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Then you may be missing the point that virtually everything we know already tilts the playing field in favor of resources rather than merit.

What do you claim to know?

https://www.reference.com/world-view/average-iq-harvard-students-1c4c565596442870

You're saying these aren't exceptional students?

The average IQ of these students is well above the average IQ in general. The idea that they are average students who bought their way in seems like fantasy.

 

[Ana the Ist]

You're now officially complaining about teaching people not to lean into their biases when making judgements about people who have different races and skin color.

Not at all. I'm saying that we shouldn't assume they will "lean into" their biases in the first place.

There's no evidence they will.

 

[Ana the Ist]

And yet I would have completely missed all three of your examples if that were my definition.

Which three examples specifically? Those in the OP?

Maybe I could track back the one that was a lesson plan for teachers that didn't get used.

I pointed out this stuff several times now.

If you want me to quote the examples and quote the definition I can.

But I have a sneaking suspicion that you'll just claim it's about something else like history.

As I explained earlier the college level CRT simply isn't making it into kids classrooms in that format.

How about we make this simpler for you since you're struggling so much...

3 keys to teaching critical race theory inclusively

If teachers are culturally responsive and inclusive, your district is already teaching components of critical race theory, says professor Cleveland Hayes.

That's a professor of education at Purdue.

So now we just need educators saying that they are teaching, learning, practicing Culturally Responsible Practices or Training.

Our Commitment to Equity

We promote culturally responsive teaching by connecting students’ cultures, languages, and life experiences with what is taught in our classrooms.

Critical race theory not being taught in Egg Harbor Township schools, superintendent says

Gruccio said the district’s curriculum includes culturally responsive teaching, which has the same initials (CRT) and which people may confuse with critical race theory. She said the district’s curriculum includes a focus on diversity, equity and inclusion because they encourage a student’s critical thinking and allow students to consider opinions beyond their own experiences.

That's pretty insulting. Imagine if educators were accused of teaching "white supremacy" then explained that isn't true...they just taught "white superiority."

Some Philadelphia teachers stand firm on teaching about race

Some teachers also say they are recommitting to culturally relevant teaching.

I could honestly post these all day. As the guy who teaches the teachers says "If teachers are culturally responsive and inclusive, your district is already teaching components of critical race theory," says professor Cleveland Hayes.

Perhaps though, the words of professional education experts themselves aren't enough for you, we have this little article about the fabulous woman who created Culturally Responsive Teaching.

Gloria Ladson-Billings: Daring to dream in public

She has helped the Madison Metropolitan School District with various projects while constantly traveling the country, and the world, speaking to rapt audiences about applying critical race theory to the field of education.

Even though she’s officially retired, her work isn’t stopping. In November, Ladson-Billings began serving a four-year term as president of the National Academy of Education, which supports research for the advancement of education policy and practice in the United States. Its members are a select group of education experts from around the world.

Oh joy, so Biden removes the ban on CRT, and suddenly, by coincidence, all these schools across the country start pushing it.

How about now? Are we at the point where you can admit that CRT or at least it's concepts under another name....is being taught and influencing teachers across the nation?

 

[variant]

If teachers are culturally responsive and inclusive, your district is already teaching components of critical race theory, says professor Cleveland Hayes.

That's a professor of education at Purdue.

Then we shouldn't be against teaching some components of critical race theory.

How about now? Are we at the point where you can admit that CRT or at least it's concepts under another name....is being taught and influencing teachers across the nation?

Fully.

Ok. So, with that broad a definition, now all you'd have to do is demonstrate that any and all efforts to be culturally responsive and inclusive are wrong then.

Good luck.

I for one am never going to support a blanket ban on teaching such ideas if we're going to ban any and all efforts to be culturally responsive and inclusive.

I've never seen a better argument against the conservative position looking to remove CRT from curriculums.

 

[variant]

Not at all. I'm saying that we shouldn't assume they will "lean into" their biases in the first place.

There's no evidence they will.

We don't have to assume anything. Teaching people that they shouldn't lean into their biases is good regardless. It's like telling people not to drink bleach. They don't actually have to be stupid enough to drink bleach for it to be a good idea (to instruct them not to).

As I said though it's kind of surreal what you're arguing here.

 

[variant]

What do you claim to know?

https://www.reference.com/world-view/average-iq-harvard-students-1c4c565596442870

You're saying these aren't exceptional students?

The average IQ of these students is well above the average IQ in general. The idea that they are average students who bought their way in seems like fantasy.

No, anyone who has a case to make for getting into Harvard is probably an exceptional student.

Admissions standards however, are about picking a few folks out of the many qualified applicants, and are in almost every conceivable way tilted toward the affluent.

Unless you actually believe that rich people's kids are born smarter than the rest...

 

[Ana the Ist]

Then we shouldn't be against teaching some components of critical race theory.

Why not?

Just because you believe strongly in something doesn't mean we should teach those beliefs to children.

Fully.

Ok. So, with that broad a definition, now all you'd have to do is demonstrate that any and all efforts to be culturally responsive and inclusive are wrong then.

Nope, all I have to do is point out that these are political opinions and as such, shouldn't be taught as factual to children.

That would constitute political indoctrination.

 

[Ana the Ist]

We don't have to assume anything. Teaching people that they shouldn't lean into their biases is good regardless.

Fine, so long as we teach them everyone is biased and no one really knows how much these biases actually affect behavior.

Shouldn't even take one day.