American gold medalist kneels during national anthem at the Pan Am Games

[D.A. Wright]

It depends how you define "Patriotic American" which is part of the problem. Many Americans understood his intent, even those who didn't necessarily approve of the protest and weren't as eager as some here to write it off as nothing but disrespect for the flag itself.

Intent doesn't determine guilt or no guilt. Only the level of it.

 

[D.A. Wright]

eh...I see our attempts to lighten the discussion with humor are not appreciated.

No, they are not.

 

[Speedwell]

Intent doesn't determine guilt or no guilt. Only the level of it.

It is not a question of "guilt." There is no crime involved. Disrespect is entirely a matter of intent. You are imputing intent.

 

[D.A. Wright]

I'm sorry you feel that way. My information about Kaepernick's intent comes from his own comments at the time and those of his close associates. I suppose you must believe they were lying.

You don't seem to get it. I don't "feel" any "way" about it. I merely observe that there is evidence to suggest that they are showing disrespect for the flag and the anthem, intentional or not.

You can sit, you can kneel, you can do cartwheels if that's your thing, but if you do anything but stand, in a respectful manner, during the playing of the national anthem, in front of a captive audience, you're probably going to be suspected of some kind of exploitation. Somehow, that seems more than reasonable to me.

Now, should you go to jail for it? I don't think so, since it is obviously an act of free expression protected by the law of the same land over which the flag flies and the anthem plays. That's the beauty of our Democratic Republic.

But should you expect to be able to make demands on how people who feel strongly about the respect they feel these symbols warrant verbally express their frustration over what they see happening? Probably not a good idea, either. Presumptuous at best, stupid at worst, I'd say.

Personally, I believe the flag-waving thing can be overdone. I did my four years in the service and 18 more as a Navy brat, so I think I have as much a right as any to speak my mind.

But in the spirit of transparency and full disclosure, I frankly don't understand the double standard. If a patriotic person unintentionally shows disrespect to some unfortunate concern, they are instantly considered guilty.

Evidence means nothing, unless it supports the cause du jour.

 

[Sparagmos]

Many things are symbols and they are extremely important to us. They represent what is dear to us and are not to be disrespected.

Some of us think it’s disrespectful for men in uniform, who represent our government, to abuse black Americans and immigrants.

Why are you against free speech? We have the right to protest our government.

 

[renniks]

Is it something about just saying the words that imbues people with a sense of national pride?

It is a pledge. I don't think that is too hard to understand. You are making a promise.

 

[D.A. Wright]

It is not a question of "guilt." There is no crime involved.

This is a Christian forum. We do not require a breach of state law to conceive guilt. There is also the matter of basic human ethics at issue.

Disrespect is entirely a matter of intent.

Buffalo Bagels. Baseless rhetoric. Try urging that in 2nd and 3rd world nations.

You are imputing intent.

I am doing no such thing. You, however, are wrongfully accusing me.

Get your best licks in now.
I can hold onto some dignity after jumping through only so many of these hastily-devised, silly hoops.

 

[Sparagmos]

There is a time and place to protest what goes on in the country. During an anthem is not the place. He just wanted the attention and he got it. And a week from now no one will remember his name anyways. If you can't respect the flag then why stay in the country? There are obviously better countries to go to if one feels the need to think this one is broken.

It’s the perfect place. It’s highly visible, so has a larger impact.

I fully believe that if a Christian had decided to start kneeling (an inherent act of respect, BTW,) during the national anthem as a protest of our nation rejecting Its Christian roots, that conservatives would be all for it. It’s the content of the protest, not the form, that really bothers people.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

It is a pledge. I don't think that is too hard to understand. You are making a promise.

That’s the thing about a pledge. It doesn’t mean much if you’re forced to make it.

 

[Sparagmos]

It is a pledge. I don't think that is too hard to understand. You are making a promise.

But it doesn’t come from the heart, it is compelled. When I was a kid and had to recite it everyday, I certainly didn’t think of it as a promise. It was just something I had to do whether I wanted to or not. Allegiance should be a choice. Authoritarians love recited pledges. I prefer genuine expressions that arise from the heart.

 

[NothingIsImpossible]

I remember when the football guy Kapernecky (spelling?) kept kneeling at football games. Since I am part of a VFW Aux Post, all of the vets were mad and yelling about it. They understood freedom they fought for meant freedom to kneel, but they also felt by kneeling that they were being hurt because they fought for the country. They said the flag and anthem is the one thing you respect. No ifs, ands or buts.

 

[Speedwell]

I remember when the football guy Kapernecky (spelling?) kept kneeling at football games. Since I am part of a VFW Aux Post, all of the vets were mad and yelling about it. They understood freedom they fought for meant freedom to kneel, but they also felt by kneeling that they were being hurt because they fought for the country. They said the flag and anthem is the one thing you respect. No ifs, ands or buts.

So does Kaepernick. He just has no respect for some of the people who wave it.

 

[usexpat97]

Don't denounce the people kneeling at the anthem. Denounce the people who are giving them reason to.

 

[section9+1]

Some of us think it’s disrespectful for men in uniform, who represent our government, to abuse black Americans and immigrants.

Why are you against free speech? We have the right to protest our government.

Not in the place he was at. And some of us think otherwise with just as much right to do so. Why are you against free speech? We have the right to respect our government.

 

[section9+1]

It’s the perfect place. It’s highly visible, so has a larger impact.

I fully believe that if a Christian had decided to start kneeling (an inherent act of respect, BTW,) during the national anthem as a protest of our nation rejecting Its Christian roots, that conservatives would be all for it. It’s the content of the protest, not the form, that really bothers people.

Yes, it is the perfect place to generate hate and hostility and disgust and division. When the nation was still in its Christian roots, none of this stuff would even be dreamed of.

 

[Speedwell]

Yes, it is the perfect place to generate hate and hostility and disgust and division. When the nation was still in its Christian roots, none of this stuff would even be dreamed of.

Be careful of "Golden ages," They're usually not so golden as you think. There was genocide, discrimination, religious intolerance, even a war that left 600,000 dead and laid waste to vast stretches of the country.

 

[Sparagmos]

Not in the place he was at. And some of us think otherwise with just as much right to do so. Why are you against free speech? We have the right to respect our government.

Lol, there you go. He doesn’t have free speech “in the place he was at.” There is no protest against police brutality that republicans have said is in the right place.

I’m not even sure what “we have the right to respect our government “ means in this context. No one is trying to stop your....feelings of “respect.” The government is people. Nancy Pelosi and AOC are “the government. Do you feel deeply offended when someone insults or makes rude jokes about AOC and Pelosi?

 

[Sparagmos]

Yes, it is the perfect place to generate hate and hostility and disgust and division.

The only people expressing negative emotions because of Kapaernik’s kneeling are people like you. You could simply not feel hostility and disgust.

When the nation was still in its Christian roots, none of this stuff would even be dreamed of.

When was that?

 

[CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN]

It is a pledge. I don't think that is too hard to understand. You are making a promise.

Yes , I remember pledging about Michael Jackson one year . The pledge of allegiance really means nothing.

 

[KCfromNC]

I'm self employed. No, I do not recite the pledge everyday, but American pride needs to be taught in our schools. Pride in the concepts this country was founded on, despite all our flaws, is part of what united us.

Why would anyone want one of the 7 deadly sins forced on children by a socialist government bureaucracy?