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American Conservative Republican Jesus

Discussion in 'Christian Philosophy & Ethics' started by Grip Docility, Dec 3, 2017.

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Judge not lest ye be judged means;

  1. Just that. We all sin and to judge by the law is to be condemned by the law

    14 vote(s)
    73.7%
  2. Christians can judge everyone, but everyone can’t judge Christians

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. Whatever it needs to mean. It’s just a guideline

    1 vote(s)
    5.3%
  4. Jesus meant we should judge others!

    4 vote(s)
    21.1%
  1. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    ?

    It's the qualifiers which are in question.

    Jesus and His apostles did tell us if a church member is in unrepentant sin, we are not to fellowship with them. That's judging is it not? How do you rectify your "judge not" with:

    Matthew 18:17

    And

    1 Corinthians 5:1-2

    The issue we have in post modern society and as such creeping in to our churches, is "judge not" seems to elicit the thought that brazen unrepentant sin is not to be challenged. Jesus and His apostles state differently as I indicated above.

    The flip side is one who is sorrowful about and struggling with their sin seeking the brethren and church for help. Such we do not judge as we are all sinners and sorrowful over our sin.

    To make this abundantly clear?

    An admitted adulterer who refuses to stop sleeping with someone else's spouse wants to partake of the Lord's Supper. He has no desire to repent. The church pastor and elders refuse the Lord's Supper to the unrepentant sinner. Are they violating Jesus's "don't judge" in Matthew 7?

    Or are they faithfully executing Matthew 18:17 and 1 Corinthians 5:1-2 ?
     
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  2. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member

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    613 Mitzvahs of the Torah...

    Or... Love the Lord Your God with all your heart and soul and Love your neighbor as yourself...

    Per... a new command I give you.
     
  3. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Biblical Jesus is certainly not thrown to the side by the political party that upholds 1) freedom of religion and 2) the importance of moral values viewed as immutable rather than constantly changing in step with societal fads.
     
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  4. expos4ever

    expos4ever Well-Known Member

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    Even if we set aside the issue of "judgment", I think it is clear that a segment of American culture has taken the Biblical Jesus and "adjusted" Him to conform to specifically American cultural values. Jesus would clearly not approve of "packing heat" yet many, perhaps the significant majority, of American Christians seem to think otherwise. Militarism is similar - many American Christians support a muscular military that broadcasts an implied threat to the world: "mess with us and we will surely deliver a smart bomb down your shorts". The Biblical Jesus would surely not approve. The American embrace of "every man for himself capitalism and may the devil take the hindmost" would also not be well-received by the Jesus who declared the gospel is good news for the poor. And, no, He is not talking about the poor in "spirit", as convenient as that twist would be for those who want to make a lot of money. The Jesus of the gospel was certainly concerned with sexual ethics, but He was not as focused on matters of the groin as a significant number of American evangelicals.
     
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  5. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member

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    I believe this OP is launched. I look forward to reading where this goes.
     
  6. Saucy

    Saucy Fear is faith in the enemy. Supporter

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    For one, I think God has always been a nationalist. The whole universe has always revolved around Israel.

    Second, as I stated previously, this would depend on your idea of what judgement is. Confronting someone living with unrepentant sin isn't hate or judgement. is letting someone live with sin and separating themselves further from God really mercy and love? Not at all. If you truly loved someone, you would warn them of danger.
     
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  7. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member

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    Are we saved by acceptance of and extension of grace... or human carnal Righteousness and Work?
     
  8. Saucy

    Saucy Fear is faith in the enemy. Supporter

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    He wouldnt approve of packing heat? I dont think it's that clear. Not only have I not seen a verse against it, Jesus specifically told His disciples to sell a cloak and buy a sword to protect themselves.

    I think the problem we have is too many think of Jesus as this soft, hippy pacifist and that's not who He is at all.
     
  9. HereIStand

    HereIStand Regular Member Supporter

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    I would take it to mean that we can not judge the sin in another person and ignore the sin in ourselves. It doesn't mean to ignore sin in general or sin in the life of a fellow Christian.
     
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  10. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member

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    Participation is fantastic here! I’m stepping back to keep from interjecting my opinion at every turn.

    Thank you to each of you for taking the time to share and discuss this.

    God bless each of you!
     
  11. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Good and here's the challenge to your OP assertions.

     
  12. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Well said. As brethren we are accountable to help each other. Meaning if I start going off the narrow path, you see it and lovingly correct me. You have done me a solid and in God's eyes you have acted in love.
     
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  13. chilehed

    chilehed Veteran

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    None of the above. Need to add option "we are called to judge the moral character of observable behavior, but we can't presume to judge the state of the soul of others."
     
  14. expos4ever

    expos4ever Well-Known Member

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    That text is widely misunderstood. A careful exegesis of the text shows that the most likely reason for the swords was that Jesus was orchestrating events to ensure His arrest. He ordered the swords so that a prophecy would be fulfilled - it's right there in the text. And what was that prophecy? That Jesus be seen as a transgressor.

    And what better way to accomplish this than to be seen as a member of an armed band.[/quote]

    I suggest the Biblical picture is quite clear: Jesus was indeed a pacifist. Again, the texts support this. We can discuss them if you like.
     
  15. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member

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    2 Corinthians 5Now if anyone has caused pain, he has caused it not to me, but in some measure—not to put it too severely—to all of you. 6For such a one, this punishment by the majority is enough, 7so you should rather turn to forgive and comfort him, or he may be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. 8So I beg you to reaffirm your love for him. 9For this is why I wrote, that I might test you and know whether you are obedient in everything. 10Anyone whom you forgive, I also forgive. Indeed, what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for your sake in the presence of Christ, 11so that we would not be outwitted by Satan; for we are not ignorant of his designs.

    I think you may be discounting this scripture.

    It follows up to what you posted and actually brings it back to “Judge not lest ye be judged”

    James 2:10 is seriously overlooked, as well.
     
  16. Saucy

    Saucy Fear is faith in the enemy. Supporter

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    Yeah, I think we have to put ourselves in the shoes of the people living in Israel at the time versus modern-day America. Pharasees were harshly judging people, even sentencing them to death, for sins they themselves were probably committing. That's why Jesus called them hypocrites. They pretended to be these super-holy people, but behind closed doors, they were anything but.
     
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  17. Saucy

    Saucy Fear is faith in the enemy. Supporter

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    I suggest the Biblical picture is quite clear: Jesus was indeed a pacifist. Again, the texts support this. We can discuss them if you like.[/QUOTE]
    Does 'careful exegesis' meaning the one you choose to agree with to fit your bias? Because carrying a sword was as common in ancient times (if you could afford one) as carrying a gun is in Texas today. The most obvious conclusion to make from that verse, without adding in personal bias, is He told them to buy a weapon for protection. And there are no texts that I've seen that describe Christ as a pacifist. Jesus is of the same Spirit of God as Jehovah. He was in full agreement with every judgement God cast down on the earth. It was also prophesied that when He returns to the earth, it will be for the purposes of war and the blood of the enemies will reach the bridal of the horse.
     
  18. GingerBeer

    GingerBeer Cool and refreshing with a kick!

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    Do you think that Jesus is teaching that people ought to vote for accused sex offenders who claim to be Christians? I am not sure what you intend.
     
  19. AvgJoe

    AvgJoe Member since 2005 Supporter

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    Jesus’ command not to judge others could be the most widely quoted of His sayings, even though it is almost invariably quoted in complete disregard of its context. Here is Jesus’ statement: “Do not judge, or you too will be judged” (Matthew 7:1). Many people use this verse in an attempt to silence their critics, interpreting Jesus’ meaning as “You don’t have the right to tell me I’m wrong.” Taken in isolation, Jesus’ command “Do not judge” does indeed seem to preclude all negative assessments. However, there is much more to the passage than those three words.

    The Bible’s command that we not judge others does not mean we cannot show discernment. Immediately after Jesus says, “Do not judge,” He says, “Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs” (Matthew 7:6). A little later in the same sermon, He says, “Watch out for false prophets. . . . By their fruit you will recognize them” (verses 15–16). How are we to discern who are the “dogs” and “pigs” and “false prophets” unless we have the ability to make a judgment call on doctrines and deeds? Jesus is giving us permission to tell right from wrong.

    Also, the Bible’s command that we not judge others does not mean all actions are equally moral or that truth is relative. The Bible clearly teaches that truth is objective, eternal, and inseparable from God’s character. Anything that contradicts the truth is a lie—but, of course, to call something a “lie” is to pass judgment. To call adultery or murder a sin is likewise to pass judgment—but it’s also to agree with God. When Jesus said not to judge others, He did not mean that no one can identify sin for what it is, based on God’s definition of sin.

    And the Bible’s command that we not judge others does not mean there should be no mechanism for dealing with sin. The Bible has a whole book entitled Judges. The judges in the Old Testament were raised up by God Himself (Judges 2:18). The modern judicial system, including its judges, is a necessary part of society. In saying, “Do not judge,” Jesus was not saying, “Anything goes.”

    Elsewhere, Jesus gives a direct command to judge: “Stop judging by mere appearances, but instead judge correctly” (John 7:24). Here we have a clue as to the right type of judgment versus the wrong type. Taking this verse and some others, we can put together a description of the sinful type of judgment:

    Superficial judgment is wrong. Passing judgment on someone based solely on appearances is sinful (John 7:24). It is foolish to jump to conclusions before investigating the facts (Proverbs 18:13). Simon the Pharisee passed judgment on a woman based on her appearance and reputation, but he could not see that the woman had been forgiven; Simon thus drew Jesus’ rebuke for his unrighteous judgment (Luke 7:36–50).

    Hypocritical judgment is wrong. Jesus’ command not to judge others in Matthew 7:1 is preceded by comparisons to hypocrites (Matthew 6:2, 5, 16) and followed by a warning against hypocrisy (Matthew 7:3–5). When we point out the sin of others while we ourselves commit the same sin, we condemn ourselves (Romans 2:1).

    Harsh, unforgiving judgment is wrong. We are “always to be gentle toward everyone” (Titus 3:2). It is the merciful who will be shown mercy (Matthew 5:7), and, as Jesus warned, “In the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you” (Matthew 7:2).

    Self-righteous judgment is wrong. We are called to humility, and “God opposes the proud” (James 4:6). The Pharisee in Jesus’ parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector was confident in his own righteousness and from that proud position judged the publican; however, God sees the heart and refused to forgive the Pharisee’s sin (Luke 18:9–14).

    Untrue judgment is wrong. The Bible clearly forbids bearing false witness (Proverbs 19:5). “Slander no one” (Titus 3:2).

    Christians are often accused of “judging” or intolerance when they speak out against sin. But opposing sin is not wrong. Holding aloft the standard of righteousness naturally defines unrighteousness and draws the slings and arrows of those who choose sin over godliness. John the Baptist incurred the ire of Herodias when he spoke out against her adultery with Herod (Mark 6:18–19). She eventually silenced John, but she could not silence the truth (Isaiah 40:8).

    Believers are warned against judging others unfairly or unrighteously, but Jesus commends “right judgment” (John 7:24, ESV). We are to be discerning (Colossians 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:21). We are to preach the whole counsel of God, including the Bible’s teaching on sin (Acts 20:27; 2 Timothy 4:2). We are to gently confront erring brothers or sisters in Christ (Galatians 6:1). We are to practice church discipline (Matthew 18:15–17). We are to speak the truth in love (Ephesians 4:15).

    www.gotquestions.org/do-not-judge.html
     
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  20. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member

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    I think the “I don’t understand” posts are an indicator of irritation with the implications of the post.

    My intention is to stimulate conversation about a relevant topic that hinges on the words of our God, Jesus Christ.
     
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