American Atheists comment on Washington Florist case

SimplyMe

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Ok, thank you for the source. I see that. It won't open for me for some reason, though. This was definitely a First Amendment case. I'm sure they don't take too many of those without payment. They were fined an insane $135,000.

The fine was not for the discrimination, there was/is no fine in the statute for not baking a cake. The fine was for things like posting the full text of the complaint on Facebook, without redacting personal information about the complainants. Between constantly going online complaining about how "evil" this couple was, particularly for forcing them to court and having the lesbian couples name and address posted, the court found this caused severe harassment of the couple. The harassment and death threats were so bad, the lesbian couple had to leave their home and go live with Rachel's mother in Washington state and the FBI became involved in the investigation of the death threats.

The lesbian couple have two children and they were in the process of trying to adopt, both children apparently with special needs. They couple feared the negative attention would slow or prevent the adoption process, as well as some articles claim there was a concerted effort by those harassing the couple to get the children removed from the lesbian's -- with at least one article I saw claiming the Klein's supported (at least verbally) that effort.

The page got shut down by Go Fund me because of pro-gay bias. This wasn't a "sexual crime". That's nuts.

I'm only finding $109,000 was raised before being shut down on gofundme. https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/may/5/sweetcakes-melissa-snubbed-gofundme-gets-new-crowd/

Yes, GoFundMe shut down their appeal for money but the Klein's did get all the money paid at the time the campaign ended. My recollection is that GoFundMe claimed they ended the campaign because the do not allow people to raise money to pay legal fines; at that point the Klein's had just been fined and were urging people to donate to help them pay that fine. Regardless, GoFundMe paid the Klein's all the money donated to that point.

I did find this: https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/jul/14/sweet-cakes-melissa-crowdfunder-breaks-record-352k/

So apparently another crowdfund site raised more money for them.

Yes, after they were dropped by GoFundMe they moved their fundraising campaign to Samaritan's Purse. As your article states, they got $352,000 on that site in two months, and were continuing to fundraise. Add that to the $109,000 they got from GoFundMe, plus a few more months on Samaritan's Purse, it isn't hard to see they got at least $500,000.

From the article:

"The Oregon labor commissioner ordered the Kleins to pay $135,000 to a lesbian couple for “emotional damages” to Laurel and Rachel Bowman-Cryer after declining to prepare a cake for their June 2013 commitment ceremony.

Mr. Klein had informed the couple that he was sorry but that the bakery did not prepare cakes for same-sex ceremonies as a result of the family’s religious convictions. Gay marriage was not legal in Oregon at the time."

Give me a break on "emotional damages" because they were not able to compel the Christian couple to create a wedding cake for a non-wedding. It wasn't even legal in the state. Wow.

I do agree wholeheartedly with this statement, which is completely Constitutionally grounded:

“Every American should be free to live and work according to their faith without the government punishing them for doing so.”

As I mentioned above, the fine was not for the discrimination, it was because of the harassment the lesbian couple faced, both from the Klein's releasing the gay couples home address as well as keeping the case in the news as they continued to try and garner support.

Additionally, I think the free speech claim is quite weak. In this case, as soon as the bakery heard it was for the wedding of two women, the bakery refused. There was no talk about what the cake would look like -- they may have wanted a wedding cake that was little different from cakes the bakery had made previously.

Edit: I fixed a couple of bad quote tags.
 
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Moral Orel

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I don't believe for a second you don't understand it :). Proof of evidence that it's not harmful is the lack of evidence that it is. The moment that you can cite some evidence... I have no ground to stand on. If you can't, then you don't get to jump around claiming that you won't believe that until I prove it to you :).
No, it's not. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. You said you can prove it, so prove it. Stop shifting the burden of proof onto me. It's your claim, prove it.
 
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devolved

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No, it's not. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. You said you can prove it, so prove it. Stop shifting the burden of proof onto me. It's your claim, prove it.

Yes it is. In context of harm, absence of evidence is evidence of absence. If it's not, then demonstrate a context of harm in which one can say "It doesn't harm you" and would prove it with anything other than absence of evidence.
 
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Moral Orel

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Yes it is. In context of harm, absence of evidence is evidence of absence. If it's not, then demonstrate a context of harm in which one can say "It doesn't harm you" and would prove it with anything other than absence of evidence.
You're confusing "I've never heard any evidence" with "I looked for evidence where it should be, and it wasn't there". You would probably call both of those "absence of evidence" when the latter is "evidence of absence". It's an argument from ignorance.

So imagine I claimed that feathers don't harm people by simply touching them. You'd first have to ask, "What do you mean by harm?" so that we'd know where to look. So I would define harm as cutting skin and drawing blood. I run a feather along my arm a hundred times, show you my arm, and it isn't bleeding. My un-bleeding arm is evidence of the absence of harm.

So where have you looked for harm from refusing to sell cakes that you would expect to see it there, didn't find it, and then conclude that you know no one was ever harmed by that? Was it nowhere?
 
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devolved

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You're confusing "I've never heard any evidence" with "I looked for evidence where it should be, and it wasn't there". You would probably call both of those "absence of evidence" when the latter is "evidence of absence". It's an argument from ignorance.

So imagine I claimed that feathers don't harm people by simply touching them. You'd first have to ask, "What do you mean by harm?" so that we'd know where to look. So I would define harm as cutting skin and drawing blood. I run a feather along my arm a hundred times, show you my arm, and it isn't bleeding. My un-bleeding arm is evidence of the absence of harm.

So where have you looked for harm from refusing to sell cakes that you would expect to see it there, didn't find it, and then conclude that you know no one was ever harmed by that? Was it nowhere?

No, the negative claim is not merely about "no harm", the negative claim is about lack of action or refusal to act that causes that lack of harm. If we appropriately modify your example with feather, it would be:

People are not harmed if we refuse to touch them with feathers.

Now, do you want to try to prove that one to me? Do we really need to find people who really want to be touched with feathers and test refusal a 100 times in order to prove the point above, if the context is physical harm?

And ... yes I do mean physical harm and not mental harm. I've already explained why.
 
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KCfromNC

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They didn't want a cake.

Has nothing to do with the baker agreeing to bake a cake for a dog wedding, though.

It was a trap, to try to make the ridiculous arguments some are making here, "Hey, he will do a DOG wedding, but not a gay wedding (nonexistent both, at the time...)"

If gay weddings were non-existent, what was the baker's objection to baking a cake for the couple? I thought he didn't want to participate in their wedding. But if their wedding didn't exist that flies out the window.
 
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devolved

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The idea here is that some people (actually, a large number) have done nothing more than try to live their lives and get murdered or beaten for it -- there was no dispute and nothing they could have really been differently. The murder or beating happened solely because of who they are.

I don't think it was merely because they were gay, but largely because of the historical context in which homosexuality was conflated with pedophilia, communism "mind pollution", among some things. There was a large historic context of both ignorance and scapegoating of societal problems of various minority groups.

So, them being gay wasn't the issue as much as people were made believe that "gay" meant something else. The reason why in today's society homosexuality is normalized is precisely because those cultural myths were gradually and systematically were shown false.

Pedophilia is not the same thing as homosexuality, so there isn't reasons to make educational films like "Boys beware" and call the offenders homosexuals. Likewise, yes, private homosexuals were blackmailed by Communists into becoming spies, but it doesn't make all homosexuals Communists, etc, etc, etc.

In your examples, this isn't the case. In those examples, there was a dispute. The dispute may have been partially because of this identifiable trait but there was more going on other than just the trait. In the top example, the murderer did not just kill anyone that disagreed politically with him, he killed the man that he had a long running feud with -- the man's political identity is not the primary reason he was murdered. OTOH, for most protected classes, there tends to be a clear history where people have been discriminated against, and not being able to live their lives freely, solely because of some "class" (race, religion, sexuality, ethnic origin, etc.) that they belong to.

That's a point that abstracts the "middle of the dispute" from the "beginning of a dispute". Virtually all of the disputes begin with one group of people doing something, and the other group of people disputing the validity of that action of idea by bothering them. Thus, I don't really see that as a viable distinction.

So based on what I stated above, the reason homosexuals (and the other protected classes) deserve protection is because they were barred, in many, many instances, of being able to fully participate in society. Just one good example is the various "gay ghettos" you find in many large cities today. Gays were prohibited from buying or renting in most areas of the city, the only housing they could find were in some of the poorest areas of the city. Further pushing them into this ghetto was the fact that they could often be told they weren't welcome at many stores in the better areas -- so that would further push them to move to the ghetto, where their were "gay-friendly" stores.

Again, the only reason they can be barred from doing anything is if they are openly homosexual (which few people were) , if they are labelled as such in close-knit community, or if they have a criminal record in broader context of community (like sexual offenders are today). Otherwise, how can you tell apart a homosexual walking into a store? Especially if they are not openly homosexual.

These issues were complex in the past because of generic "mental illness" category in which a lot of things were thrown together indiscriminately (yes, that last word is important). Thus, there were a lot of pedophiles who were "homosexuals" who lived among homosexuals. There was a broader societal confusion on this issue, even among people who were generically labeled homosexuals and thus believed it to be an adequate label.

But, that's besides the point, because below is the main reason why it's problematic.

In this context, you'd have to justify connecting setting X to setting Y. Setting X is beating and murder, and setting Y is baking a cake for a wedding. In this context you'd have to consistently show that because X is wrong, therefore Y is also wrong in context of the "floodgate principle", meaning that if we are going to make up universal rules for people to live by, these would need to be consistently applied to various categories of mistreated people, if you are going to imply that because X then Y. That's the only reason I brought up this issue.

Otherwise, we are talking about two different settings - murder and beating is clearly wrong, and refusing to sell the cake is nowhere near or related to this issue, and you'd have to show how it's wrong apart from appealing to murder and beating.

Now, I'll agree, being "murdered" isn't "the" reason, but it is a part of it. Again, you had people who would sit outside of bars where gays were known to hangout, then they'd beat up or murder individuals after they came out of the bar (not wanting to take on groups that came out). There was no dispute, there was no disagreement, just that the person was suspected to be gay and was beaten or murdered.

Again, we should protect people against being beaten and murdered. I totally vote YES for that. But, that's not what you are arguing against in context of equality of rights.

All of us shouldn't be murdering each other, or be murdered by someone, right?

You can argue that no one should refuse to bake cakes for anyone... and I'll be the first one knocking on your door to prove that point wrong.

You can then say, but I don't bake cakes for living, but that's the point. You can't consistently transfer "Because no-one should be murdered" and then argue "This special category was beaten and murdered, and refused hosing and sales more than everyone, therefore no one should do that". You are mixing the settings and arguments.

I agree that murder is always wrong no matter who we are murdering or the reasons we have for murder. I disagree that refusing someone to sell something is always wrong no matter who we are selling to or the reason we have for refusal. Thus, you can't mix the two claims and throw these in the same category of claims as people did, and perhaps still do with homosexuality.


Basically, these protections were designed and are kept in place to ensure all citizens can participate fully in society -- they can live their lives as they chose without having to worry about whether an area will be "friendly" to their "kind" (i.e. not face discrimination, or worse).

OK, now you are switching the context from "beating and murder" to "friendly and kind". There's a vast in-between gap with these concepts.

Likewise, you are confused as to what's Government job should be. Government job is to protect against immoral extremes. It's not there to enforce ideals. If someone is crabby hermit by nature of their existence, it's not government's job to force them to be a polite socialite.

Likewise no one owes anyone "the full participation in society". I know someone who is extremely shy and insecure with the world because of restrictions, expectations of him that were placed by his parents. As a result, he never dated a woman and is terrified of failure or rejection, and is afraid of job interviews, and the guy is 40. As a result of this psychological abuse by parents, he is also unable to fully participate in society... more so than many homosexuals today.

There are plentiful cases like that, and it's not up to the government to resolve these cases.
 
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RestoreTheJoy

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I'll be sure and tell my child she does not exist.

The baker violated man's law, thus he violated God's commands:

In this case, God's law and man's law did not conflict. Baking wedding cakes does not violate God's law, and it does not violate God's law to not discriminate. If the Christian baker believed baking wedding cakes violated God's law, he should have chosen another means of earning a living.

Had he himself chosen to enter into a homosexual marriage (or civil union which was legal), that would have violated God's command. As far as I am aware, no one asked him to enter into a SSM or a civil union. I am unaware of any command that God has given us that states we are to not provide services to non-Christians who we believe are violating God's commands. If God did in fact tell us not to provide services to people we believe are sinning, then there would be no Christian businesses. Instead God is pretty clear it is His job to judge non-Christians (1 Corinthians 5:9-13).

The business owner could have opened a members only business so he could have served only those he wished to, or he could have stopped discriminating. If he choose instead to close down or stop selling wedding cakes, that is also his choice, but no one forced him to close or stop selling wedding cakes. All he was forced to do was decide in what manner he wished to adhere to God's commands and man's law. This always a personal decision of a business owner.

To advocate for Christians being able to deny services to those they feel are sinning is to advocate for NO Christian owning a business. Not a wise course of action in my opinion.
What?

What do you mean you will tell your child she does not exist. ?? Non sequitur

Nobody knows who your child is and it isn't relevant to the discussion here.

He did not violate his conscience and his faith. In God's law, there is no such thing as same gender marriage. It is not recognized. It is not valid. It does not exist. Jesus Himself, said, "Let a man leave his father and mother, cling unto his wife, and the two shall be one flesh." All of them, Jesus included, being Jewish, were well grounded in Jewish law and did not need to be reminded that marriage was between a man and a woman. Hence, why Jesus never went on and on about it, saying nothing but this one statement because it wasn't necessary. It was well understood.

If this baker is abiding by God's law by not providing custom services for something that is an abomination in his faith, he is free to do that under the First Amendment (or should be). It comes above man's law, and he was willing to to pay the price for it, which he sure did. The forces against him made sure of it. He could have easily have just lied and said he was booked that day - the point that everyone seems to be missing - but his conscience wouldn't permit it and he spoke the truth and paid the consequences.

He was willing to sell them a cake - which is what he does, as a baker. He was not willing to invest his artistry into creating a custom cake for an event that did not exist legally and violated his religious tenets. He should be perfectly free to do that.

What's next? He doesn't create Halloween cakes either. Are the pagans who celebrate on that night going to sue him next?
 
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Moral Orel

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No, the negative claim is not merely about "no harm", the negative claim is about lack of action or refusal to act that causes that lack of harm. If we appropriately modify your example with feather, it would be:

People are not harmed if we refuse to touch them with feathers.

Now, do you want to try to prove that one to me? Do we really need to find people who really want to be touched with feathers and test refusal a 100 times in order to prove the point above, if the context is physical harm?

And ... yes I do mean physical harm and not mental harm. I've already explained why.
As long as the only harm you acknowledge as being real is physical harm, we can go ahead with that. You started deflecting my questions when I derived that conclusion from the answers to my questions though. If you think there are other types of harm that can follow from refusal of services, then you aren't just talking about physical harm when you claim "no harm". So are there other types of harm or not?

Aside from that, I already fulfilled your request 100%. That is "a context of harm in which one can say 'It doesn't harm you' and would prove it with anything other than absence of evidence." Stop shifting the burden of proof and prove your own claim. Action or inaction, it doesn't matter. The un-bloody arm would result and be the evidence of the absence of harm.
 
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RestoreTheJoy

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The fine was not for the discrimination, there was/is no fine in the statute for not baking a cake. The fine was for things like posting the full text of the complaint on Facebook, without redacting personal information about the complainants. Between constantly going online complaining about how "evil" this couple was, particularly for forcing them to court and having the lesbian couples name and address posted, the court found this caused severe harassment of the couple. The harassment and death threats were so bad, the lesbian couple had to leave their home and go live with Rachel's mother in Washington state and the FBI became involved in the investigation of the death threats.

The lesbian couple have two children and they were in the process of trying to adopt, both children apparently with special needs. They couple feared the negative attention would slow or prevent the adoption process, as well as some articles claim there was a concerted effort by those harassing the couple to get the children removed from the lesbian's -- with at least one article I saw claiming the Klein's supported (at least verbally) that effort.



Yes, GoFundMe shut down their appeal for money but the Klein's did get all the money paid at the time the campaign ended. My recollection is that GoFundMe claimed they ended the campaign because the do not allow people to raise money to pay legal fines; at that point the Klein's had just been fined and were urging people to donate to help them pay that fine. Regardless, GoFundMe paid the Klein's all the money donated to that point.



Yes, after they were dropped by GoFundMe they moved their fundraising campaign to Samaritan's Purse. As your article states, they got $352,000 on that site in two months, and were continuing to fundraise. Add that to the $109,000 they got from GoFundMe, plus a few more months on Samaritan's Purse, it isn't hard to see they got at least $500,000.



As I mentioned above, the fine was not for the discrimination, it was because of the harassment the lesbian couple faced, both from the Klein's releasing the gay couples home address as well as keeping the case in the news as they continued to try and garner support.

Additionally, I think the free speech claim is quite weak. In this case, as soon as the bakery heard it was for the wedding of two women, the bakery refused. There was no talk about what the cake would look like -- they may have wanted a wedding cake that was little different from cakes the bakery had made previously.

Edit: I fixed a couple of bad quote tags.

Not what I'm finding. They were charged 135,000 for discrimination. From here: https://christiannews.net/2015/04/2...s-for-declining-to-make-cake-for-gay-wedding/


"In February, a judge with the Oregon Bureau of Labor and Industries ruled that the Christian bakers are guilty of discrimination for declining to make the cake, thus moving the matter into the sentencing phase. The Kleins have expressed concern for months that if they were forced to pay a fine for declining the cake over their Christian convictions, the penalty would “definitely” bankrupt the family. Speculations were that the fine could range from $75,000 to $150,000.


On Friday, Alan McCullough, an administrative judge with the bureau, recommended a fine of $135,000, with one of the women receiving $75,000 and the other $60,000. Prosecutors had sought damages of $75,000 each.


According to the Daily Signal, the two women, who have been identified as Rachel Cryer and Laurel Bowman, submitted individual lists of just under 100 aspects of suffering in order to receive the damages. They included “acute loss of confidence,” “doubt,” “distrust of men,” “distrust of former friends,” “excessive sleep,” “discomfort,” “high blood pressure,” “impaired digestion,” “loss of appetite,” “migraine headaches,” “loss of pride,” “resumption of smoking habit,” “shock” “stunned,” “surprise,” “uncertainty,” “weight gain” and “worry.”


But the Kleins told the court that they too had suffered because of the attacks that they received over their desire to live out their Christian faith in the workplace. They stated that they endured “mafia tactics” as their car was vandalized and broken into on two occasions, their vendors were harassed by homosexual advocates resulting in some businesses breaking ties with them, and they received threatening emails wishing rape, death and Hell upon the family. As a result, they had to close their business and move it into their private home."



Sounds like they each should have simply moved on with their lives instead of this mess. Suffering all around. Some of what the ladies listed is ridiculous. "resumption of smoking", "distrust of men" "weight gain"? Really? Give me a break.

The Kleins suffered vandalism, death threats, loss of their vendors, and emails threatening rape, death, and hell to them and their kids. So pardon me if I don't have a lot of sympathy for the ladies and think they should have just found another bakery to get their "commitment cake" (because again, same sex marriage was not even a legally recognized entity).
 
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devolved

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As long as the only harm you acknowledge as being real is physical harm, we can go ahead with that.

Sure in this context of refusing to bake a cake... I acknowledge that the only viable harm is a physical harm. I already indicated that. See "floodgates principle" as to my reasons why.
 
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Mayzoo

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What?

What do you mean you will tell your child she does not exist. ?? Non sequitur

Nobody knows who your child is and it isn't relevant to the discussion here.

He did not violate his conscience and his faith. In God's law, there is no such thing as same gender marriage. It is not recognized. It is not valid. It does not exist. Jesus Himself, said, "Let a man leave his father and mother, cling unto his wife, and the two shall be one flesh." All of them, Jesus included, being Jewish, were well grounded in Jewish law and did not need to be reminded that marriage was between a man and a woman. Hence, why Jesus never went on and on about it, saying nothing but this one statement because it wasn't necessary. It was well understood.

If this baker is abiding by God's law by not providing custom services for something that is an abomination in his faith, he is free to do that under the First Amendment (or should be). It comes above man's law, and he was willing to to pay the price for it, which he sure did. The forces against him made sure of it. He could have easily have just lied and said he was booked that day - the point that everyone seems to be missing - but his conscience wouldn't permit it and he spoke the truth and paid the consequences.

He was willing to sell them a cake - which is what he does, as a baker. He was not willing to invest his artistry into creating a custom cake for an event that did not exist legally and violated his religious tenets. He should be perfectly free to do that.

What's next? He doesn't create Halloween cakes either. Are the pagans who celebrate on that night going to sue him next?

Civil unions were perfectly legal at that time, so insisting the event was not legal is erroneous.

Baking cakes for sinners does not violate God's commands. Disobeying man's law does violate God's commands. While it is great he chose to not sin in lying, it would have been better to obey God in all this interaction, not just part of it.

Not baking Halloween cakes for anyone does not violate man's law so far as I know.
 
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devolved

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Civil unions were perfectly legal at that time, so insisting the event was not legal is erroneous.

Baking cakes for sinners does not violate God's commands. Disobeying man's law does violate God's commands.

Not baking Halloween cakes would not violate man's law so far as I know.

So who gets to decide what is a viable God's laws and what is not?
 
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Mayzoo

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And if Christians disagree like your disagreement with the baker?

Then it usually is let go, talked through, or taken to a pastor/priest/clergy much like any family structure.

On a forum like this where our opinions are largely irrelevant, we just talk it through for others to read. I know I will not change the mind of the person I am talking to. I am posting my thoughts merely for those whose minds are not made up yet.
 
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RestoreTheJoy

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Civil unions were perfectly legal at that time, so insisting the event was not legal is erroneous.

Baking cakes for sinners does not violate God's commands. Disobeying man's law does violate God's commands. While it is great he chose to not sin in lying, it would have been better to obey God in all this interaction, not just part of it.

Not baking Halloween cakes for anyone does not violate man's law so far as I know.


Excuse me? Not baking wedding cakes or any kind of cakes does not violate the law. Investing your artistry - which is entirely separate from baking a cake - should not be compelled against one's religious conviction. Who even WANTS someone who doesn't want to do your event compelled to do it? I sure don't. All of the bakers could have simply said they were booked. But they were honest about their religious convictions and penalized for it.

Go to another baker.

This isn't about baking a cake. Baking a cake does not violate any law, and the baker (Jack Phillips anyway, if you are referring to that case) was perfectly willing to bake any cake. He simply could not be compelled to invest his artistry in cake decorating for an event that violates his conscience. And that should be perfectly protected.
 
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RestoreTheJoy

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Excuse me? Not baking wedding cakes or any kind of cakes does not violate the law. Investing your artistry - which is entirely separate from baking a cake - should not be compelled against one's religious conviction. Who even WANTS someone who doesn't want to do your event compelled to do it. None of the bakers had to agree. They all could have said they were booked up. But they werehon

The baker's religion does not recognize civil unions or any other permutation of God's commandment of one husband and one wife. Many other bakers could not care less. Go to one of them.

This isn't about baking a cake. Baking a cake does not violate any law, and the baker (Jack Phillips anyway, if you are referring to that case) was perfectly willing to bake any cake. He simply could not be compelled to invest his artistry in cake decorating for an event that violates his conscience. And that should be perfectly protected.
Pardon the messed up post. Not sure how that copied twice.
 
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Mayzoo

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Excuse me? Not baking wedding cakes or any kind of cakes does not violate the law. Investing your artistry - which is entirely separate from baking a cake - should not be compelled against one's religious conviction. Who even WANTS someone who doesn't want to do your event compelled to do it? I sure don't. All of the bakers could have simply said they were booked. But they were honest about their religious convictions and penalized for it.

Go to another baker.

This isn't about baking a cake. Baking a cake does not violate any law, and the baker (Jack Phillips anyway, if you are referring to that case) was perfectly willing to bake any cake. He simply could not be compelled to invest his artistry in cake decorating for an event that violates his conscience. And that should be perfectly protected.

This is about discrimination, which in this case was illegal; thus, violating God's commands.

I would hope most Christians find it more concerning to violate God's commands than to violate their self-imposed conscience.

Of course he is allowed to violate God's commands. We all must choose every moment of every day to either obey or disobey God. BUT, when we violate man's law, there is fairly immediate consequences, unlike when we violate God's commands.
 
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RestoreTheJoy

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This is about discrimination, which in this case was illegal; thus, violating God's commands.

I would hope most Christians find it more concerning to violate God's commands than to violate their self-imposed conscience.

Of course he is allowed to violate God's commands. We all must choose every moment of every day to either obey or disobey God. BUT, when we violate man's law, there is fairly immediate consequences, unlike when we violate God's commands.
Right. Violating God's commandment to honor marriage would be wrong. This does not honor God's design for marriage. Hence, he took the expected attacks and ridiculously high fine.

Hebrews 13:4 Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage bed be undefiled, for God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterous.
 
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