America Should Pull Out

Nelzador · Feb 13, 2003

Today at 11:07 AM Ajnin said this in Post #84
By the way, I doubt Yugoslavia will become the next "Hitler" state because Yugoslavia no longer exsists....

You should read my comments more throughly first as I said:

Everyone knows that if the U.S. wasn't around and didn't have the will and determination to keep the free world, free then lots of places in Europe, the Middle-East & Asia would be under the oppressive rule of another regime. Israel wouldn't exist, Yugoslavia would be the next Hitler state.

Key words being: "wasn't around." So without the US, Yugoslavia would still exist now as frankly, NATO without the US would not have had the manpower or technology to fight in the Balkans.

ACougar · Feb 13, 2003

Yesterday at 06:09 PM TheBear said this in Post #62

I'll play.

If what you said is true, that's all the more reason we should withdraw military and humanitarian aid. And get it together at home, first.

But, as you know, greed is not exclusive to America. Greed is a sin that has global ties. So, that agument is a straw man.

As far as a capitalistic society, I think Jesus would approve.

Since you jumped in, in the middle of the discussion, tell us what you think about America withdrawing all military and humanitarian aid, and why.

 

Withdraw all military aid immediately, boost humanitarian aid by encouraging economicly and environmentaly sustainable jobs where ever we can.  We should always retain the moral high ground, and treat our fellow man as we would want to be treated.

Lacmeh · Feb 13, 2003

Without the US, Yugoslavia wouldn´t be the next "Hitler State.

Simply because the former Yugoslavia didn´t have the same ambitions.

The reasons for Hitler Germany going to war and Yugoslavia warring in itself were quite different. The Yugoslavia war was fueled by economics. HTe southern states were always funded by the northern states. With he breakup and independence of the Northern states, Serbia would have been cut off from the former fundings. And the old grudges were never worked out, just brutally forced back.

Nelzador · Feb 13, 2003

Today at 01:31 PM Lacmeh said this in Post #87

Without the US, Yugoslavia wouldn´t be the next "Hitler State.

Simply because the former Yugoslavia didn´t have the same ambitions.

The reasons for Hitler Germany going to war and Yugoslavia warring in itself were quite different. The Yugoslavia war was fueled by economics. HTe southern states were always funded by the northern states. With he breakup and independence of the Northern states, Serbia would have been cut off from the former fundings. And the old grudges were never worked out, just brutally forced back.

It may not have had the same ambitions, but it had leaders who were happy to approve of ethnic cleasning. Kosovo for example. Ethnic cleasning on mainland Europe... A painful reminder to the super-powers of what history still cannot teach certain people. Had we left Yugoslavia alone, we would have ignored the worst case of human rights abuses in Europe since WW2.

And I remember the anti-Balkans war movement in the UK before we went in... They soon shut up when the mass graves were uncovered.

TheBear · Feb 13, 2003

Today at 04:16 AM Kiwi said this in Post #82 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=650412#post650412)

To add to the debate about christianity as a individual responsibility only, in the Bible God talks alot about nations, and the responsibilities they have. For example, God is the king of all the nations (Psalms 47:8), God rebukes nations (Psalms 9:5), God makes nations an inheritance (Psalms 2:8), his eyes watch the nations (Psalms 66:7), he will judge nations (Psalms 110:6), in heaven there is a tree with leaves for the 'healing of the nations (Rev 22:2). And the references go on and on, God talks alot about nations. Bear, you obviously love your country and feel hurt when people slander it's government. This is o.k., however it should be kept in perspective. As christians our alligence is to God first, if God tells us to love our enemies and provide food to the naked and the poor (as someone else pointed out), then these duties come before our duty to our nationalist feelings. America has a tradition has a Christian country, it would be shame to see that be defeated by insecurity over remarks made by others. Just as people pulled down Jesus, despite all the good he did, people will pull down your country. And the best way to respond is like Jesus did, he kept on going, out of love for his Father and his people, not because of the response he got.

HOGWASH!!!!

Stop twisting scripture to make a point. Jesus never talked along the lines of "Christian Nations". NEVER! Nothing, in anything He taught, even remotely resembles a concept of a "Christian Nation". Nothing He taught pointed to any form of a Christian government. Nothing He taught suggests that we love our enemies, feed the hungry and clothe the naked, through a government. Everything He taught, without exception, is in the context of the individual. Paul further verifies this in Romans 13:1 "Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God."

When Christ returns in that glorious day, we will be held accountable for our actions, and judged as individuals, not as nations.

I am shocked that people have such little understanding of what Jesus taught.

Kiwi · Feb 13, 2003

Today at 02:43 AM TheBear said this in Post #91

HOGWASH!!!!

Stop twisting scripture to make a point. Jesus never talked along the lines of "Christian Nations". NEVER! Nothing, in anything He taught, even remotely resembles a concept of a "Christian Nation". Nothing He taught pointed to any form of a Christian government. Nothing He taught suggests that we love our enemies, feed the hungry and clothe the naked, through a government. Everything He taught, without exception, is in the context of the individual. Paul further verifies this in Romans 13:1 "Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God."

When Christ returns in that glorious day, we will be held accountable for our actions, and judged as individuals, not as nations.

I am shocked that people have such little understanding of what Jesus taught.

This is what the scriptures say, sorry if you don't like it. Even if you have a different interpretation of them you don't need to be rude about it. God did and does judge nations. That's why Israel was sent off to Babalyon, because, as a nation, they disobeyed God. Now there were individuals in there that would have been obeying God, but no matter, they all got sent off. God also judges individuals as well, so I am not disagreeing with you on that. I don't believe there are such things as 'Christian nations' either, basically because there is never a government made up totally of christians in the modern world. But there are nations founded on christian principles, that's why many western countries have a welfare system, so the poor will not go hungry and the naked will be clothed. This is off the point of the topic so I will finish, but at least stop resorting to insults when you reply.

Michael0701 · Feb 13, 2003

I read in yesterday's paper that the US is re-evaluating it's troop deployment throughout the world. It doesn't take a history major to see how the US ended up with permanent troops in places like Germany and Japan, but I for one am glad to see that the present administration is seeing that they may no longer be "needed" )you could substitute "wanted" if you like).

Maybe it is time for the EU to step up and police it's own. For Nato to disband (or for the US to pull out at the very least). Things are certianly changing, oh what interesting times we live in today.

A side note if I may: I have seen a few posts, please don't ask me to quote, where the US is supposedly the great beast (nation) mentioned in revelation, has anyone given any thought to the EU?

datan · Feb 13, 2003

I've heard everything from the EU [the fifteen? starts] to the Vatican [can't remember why] to the US [um...new Bablyon?]...so pls take all these with a grain of salt...

ACougar · Feb 13, 2003

Today at 08:43 AM TheBear said this in Post #91

HOGWASH!!!!

Stop twisting scripture to make a point. Jesus never talked along the lines of "Christian Nations". NEVER! Nothing, in anything He taught, even remotely resembles a concept of a "Christian Nation". Nothing He taught pointed to any form of a Christian government. Nothing He taught suggests that we love our enemies, feed the hungry and clothe the naked, through a government. Everything He taught, without exception, is in the context of the individual. Paul further verifies this in Romans 13:1 "Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God."

When Christ returns in that glorious day, we will be held accountable for our actions, and judged as individuals, not as nations.

I am shocked that people have such little understanding of what Jesus taught.

     Apparently the Old Testament scriptures play a greater role in his interpretation of GOd's will than they do in yours.  That said, I agree that Jesus cared little for the governments of man.  On the other hand shouldn't a government be a reflection of the governed?  The United States is a predominately Christian country, shouldn't the value's of it's people be reflected in thier government?

     It seems odd that Christians are sometimes opposed to governmental action which is Christ like...  Could it be that you resent such action because it is on behalf of the American people and therefor Christian, Hindu, Buddhist, Jewish, Muslim, Agnostic, Pagan, ect.. instead of your brand of Christianity?

Something to think about...

strathyboy · Feb 13, 2003

Today at 09:15 PM Michael0701 said this in Post #95 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=651416#post651416)

Maybe it is time for the EU to step up and police it's own. For Nato to disband (or for the US to pull out at the very least). Things are certianly changing, oh what interesting times we live in today.

Given that NATO was created primarily as a defence against the USSR, one could question whether it is still needed.

Today at 09:15 PM Michael0701 said this in Post #95 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=651416#post651416)

A side note if I may: I have seen a few posts, please don't ask me to quote, where the US is supposedly the great beast (nation) mentioned in revelation, has anyone given any thought to the EU?

I'm currently studying the Reformation, and you see this sort of thing a lot. Everyone calls everyone else the Great Satan, the servant of the Beast, and so on and so forth. Anyone who doesn't agree with one's own personal opinion MUST be from the devil. I wouldn't pay too much attention to such claims.

Auntie · Feb 13, 2003

Today at 03:56 PM ACougar said this in Post #97 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=651496#post651496)

It seems odd that Christians are sometimes opposed to governmental action which is Christ like... Could it be that you resent such action because it is on behalf of the American people and therefor Christian, Hindu, Buddhist, Jewish, Muslim, Agnostic, Pagan, ect.. instead of your brand of Christianity?

Oh absolutely, you are correct oh great see'r of unknown truths. Your enlightenment soars far beyond the sordid state of us lowly Christian bigots.

May the pagan god's bless you with anchovies on all your pizza's.

Sauron · Feb 13, 2003

Yesterday at 11:57 AM Auntie said this in Post #2

Sad to say, but I agree with you. As it is, our taxes are sky high due to tremendous military costs protecting people who despise us. My wages go to pay for the protection and support of people who despise me. Insanity, insanity, by any other name would still be just as crazy.

Right.  I"m sure we're protecting these folks out of humanitarianism, as opposed to keeping the flow of goods and raw materials open to our own markets. 

Unfortunately, I'm a latecomer to this particular thread, so I'm going to assume that it's been hashed to death.  If not, someone let me know.

Sauron · Feb 13, 2003

Today at 06:43 AM TheBear said this in Post #91

HOGWASH!!!!

Stop twisting scripture to make a point. Jesus never talked along the lines of "Christian Nations". NEVER! Nothing, in anything He taught, even remotely resembles a concept of a "Christian Nation".

Uh huh.
MAT 24:14      And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
 
MAT 25:32      And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
MAT 25:33      And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
 
MAT 28:19      Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
 
REV 7:9      After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
REV 7:10      And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
 

 Nothing He taught pointed to any form of a Christian government. Nothing He taught suggests that we love our enemies, feed the hungry and clothe the naked, through a government.

Click to expand...

Except that the Jewish theocracy was such a govt, and that social services were performed via that govt.  You can check the Torah for instructions on how this was to be carried out.

Everything He taught, without exception, is in the context of the individual. Paul further verifies this in Romans 13:1 "Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God."

[/quote]

So if the govt says that we need to provide for the poor via taxes, then you need to obey the govt and stop whining about it, because the govt is put in place by God and you have no business complaining about it.  Works for me.

Sauron · Feb 13, 2003

The verses that got munged by the bbs code above should be:

MAT 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

MAT 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
MAT 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

MAT 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

REV 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

REV 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

 

Auntie · Feb 13, 2003

Today at 08:46 PM Sauron said this in Post #100 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=652008#post652008)

Right.  I"m sure we're protecting these folks out of humanitarianism, as opposed to keeping the flow of goods and raw materials open to our own markets. 

Yeah, like Porches, BMW's, Mercedes.

Lord knows, America would surely collapse without these fine products.

Sauron · Feb 13, 2003

Today at 07:21 PM Auntie said this in Post #103

Yeah, like Porches, BMW's, Mercedes. Lord knows, America would surely collapse without these fine products.

Perhaps you should be more specific: we have troops stationed in Germany now. 

Do you think it's for humanitarian reasons?  Explain.

Who are we protecting them from?  Explain.

ACougar · Feb 13, 2003

Today at 08:07 PM Auntie said this in Post #99

Oh absolutely, you are correct oh great see'r of unknown truths. Your enlightenment soars far beyond the sordid state of us lowly Christian bigots. May the pagan god's bless you with anchovies on all your pizza's.

I'll resist the temptation to pretend you weren't being sarcastic

and instead admit I was trying to provoke a response.  Not necessarily sarcasm but the real reason some Christians would prefer not to see the Governement in the Charity/Social Services business.  Mmmm anchovies, yum! 

geocajun · Feb 13, 2003

I do not think we should stop any "humanitarian aid" -- generally the poor starving folks are not responsible for their condition and should not suffer because of bad leadership.

I am not against pulling out our military though in certain cases, like that of Korea.

Serving4Christ · Feb 13, 2003

Today at 08:21 PM Auntie said this in Post #103

Yeah, like Porches, BMW's, Mercedes. Lord knows, America would surely collapse without these fine products.

Dont forget internet!

Caedmon · Feb 13, 2003

Yesterday at 02:27 PM TheBear said this in Post #8 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=649228#post649228)
Also, I want all our troops home now. Let the world events unfold as they will. Let the chips fall where they may.

AMEN BROTHER!!!

Leave Saddam alone FOR GOODNESS' SAKE! If we go trampling all over his country with "peace keeping" and "inspection" armed forces, what do you think he's going to do?! He's going to retaliate. And who is he going to retaliate on? The nearest countries. And then who are we going to truck yet more of our troops to? Saddam's neighbors. Not to mention that we've got a nuclear capable North Korea saying that they will consider sanctions to be an act of war, and India and Pakistan are breathing down each others' necks with nuclear warheads. I mean, hey, look... WE DON'T NEED THE OIL THAT BAD... Oi vey...

America Should Pull Out

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