America--No Longer a Christian Nation

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Glass*Soul

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That might mean "Christians," as long as Christians realize they are Christians and not "Americans" or some other name.

QFT. A strong correlation between the use of the terms "Christian" and "American" are not good for either Christians or America. Christianity is an internal phenomenon that knows no national boundaries. To say that we are Americans is to comment on our outward circumstances, not our inward states.
 
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Glass*Soul

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It is in fact God alone that calls. A mere man may attempt, and only fool him/her self.

God have mercy if I cannot promote God on a God based site.

If an atheist calls me a christian, that is to none effect for me, for it is God alone that establishes the truth since, in fact, God alone created all that is.

Who is a human to assume credit for what he/she received?

I will have to come down on your side in that the Isrealite's writings do indicate that they thought of themselves as named by Yahweh. That they knew the terms their God had specified to Moses when he asked who he should say sent him, that Yahweh knew their names, and that he specifically called them by his name, was a concept of mystical importance to them.

Some examples:

"Listen to me, O coastlands, and give attention, you peoples from afar. The Lord called me from the womb, from the body of my mother he named my name. He made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand he hid me; he made me a polished arrow; in his quiver he hid me away. And he said to me, “You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified.” But I said, “I have labored in vain; I have spent my strength for nothing and vanity; yet surely my right is with the Lord, and my recompense with my God.” And now the Lord says, he who formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob back to him; and that Israel might be gathered to him— for I am honored in the eyes of the Lord, and my God has become my strength—" ~ Is. 49:1-26

"But now thus says the Lord, he who created you, O Jacob, he who formed you, O Israel: “Fear not, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by name, you are mine." ~ Is. 43:1

"Because he holds fast to me in love, I will deliver him; I will protect him, because he knows my name. ~ Ps. 91:14"

"And the Lord said to Moses, “This very thing that you have spoken I will do, for you have found favor in my sight, and I know you by name. ~ Ex. 33-17"

[emphasis mine]

Revelation is quite famous for contrasting those whose names are written in the Book of Life vs those who have been marked by the name of Christ's enemies.

So, yes, others may call them this or that name, but the "If my people..." verse from II Chron. is probably speaking of a mystical naming rather than a mundane one.
 
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Psalm 91

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Most Protestant preachers "map" the Church to "Israel in the Promised Land" and extract the Promised Land promises for the Church. And, yes, that does logically mean they should extract the whole Law with the curses as well.

In 2 Corinthinans 8, however, Paul maps the Church to "Israel in the wilderness." The Church is no longer in the bondage of Egypt, but the Church is definitely not yet in her "promised land."

That induces an entirely different view.

For one thing, the Promised Land promises did not apply to "Israel in the wilderness." Nor did the most of the Legal requirements, nor even did the economic system of "Isreal in the Promised Land" apply to "Israel in the Wilderness."
The model is wholly different when we look at the Church as "Israel in the wilderness."



Whaaaa? :confused:
 
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Psalm 91

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The government of this country is not Christian but the country itself is Christian, even the non-practicing and nominal Christians are still statistically counted as Christian. We were founded on Judeo-Christian values. We are all entitled to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, which is not a pagan value. Obama doesn't know the difference between a Christian and a pagan so he is really no authority on the subject.
 
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Glass*Soul

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The government of this country is not Christian but the country itself is Christian, even the non-practicing and nominal Christians are still statistically counted as Christian. We were founded on Judeo-Christian values. We are all entitled to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, which is not a pagan value. Obama doesn't know the difference between a Christian and a pagan so he is really no authority on the subject.

Being entitled to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are Enlightenment values.
 
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Glass*Soul

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And what are "Enlightenment" values?

That is a big question and I am not an expert on the Enlightenment.

If I may make a humble effort: It was an effort to elevate reason and skepticism over superstition and tradition, to advance the scientific method, to question and break down the inter-meshing of the hereditary aristocracy and the church and the resulting concept of the "Divine Right of Kings", to lessen religiously fueled warfare, to promote freedom, democracy and "natural law" which Enlightenment thinkers considered universal.

The Declaration of Independence is just oozing with Enlightenment thought. Just in this small portion...

[FONT=arial, geneva]We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness...


It appeals, not to tradition or any religious text, but to what is recognized as "self-evident" truth. It refers to "unalienable rights" rather than privileges granted. It appeals to reason rather than authority in that "We hold...," not "I say."

That's the Enlightenment right there in a nutshell.

Someone who knows more help me out here.



[/FONT]
 
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RDKirk

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QFT. A strong correlation between the use of the terms "Christian" and "American" are not good for either Christians or America. Christianity is an internal phenomenon that knows no national boundaries. To say that we are Americans is to comment on our outward circumstances, not our inward states.

About 30 years ago, I was stationed in Okinawa. While exploring the local town, I ran across a storefront Christian church, which looked much like a USO, so I went inside.

I wound up in a very pleasant conversation with the Japanese man working there. He wound up inviting me to dinner in his home, which extended our conversation into the night.

We talked about all the deep issues of life: Love and hate, good and evil, honor and dishonor...and it was all from the perspective of Christ. Even though his English wasn't perfect and my Japanese was non-existent, even though he was born (the first time) and raised on the other side of the planet from me, I was amazed at how perfectly we saw these things eye-to-eye. We had the same worldview, the perspective of the world from Heaven.

Tick.

A few months later, I was back in the States. I found myself in a very similar conversation with someone who--outwardly--was very much like me. But we saw nothing eye-to-eye. Our moral perspectives were utterly different. In fact, our world views were different.

It made me wonder: Certainly, "native culture" is more than one's taste in food. If we disagree on the basics of morality, how can we claim to be of the same culture or even of the same nationality?

Tock.

Which man was my true fellow countryman? What was even my true nationality? I realized then at the gut level: This is not my home, this is not my culture, these are not my fellow countryman. That guy in Okinawa was my fellow countryman.

Now, I have had the useful experience of having spent 13 years in the Far East, walking amidst cultures that were clearly alien to my own upbringing. So I have already had the experience of looking at the practices of the local natives and saying, "That's not my culture" and having a detachment from it, even if those native practices were physically pleasant. "That's not how we do things in my home."

I carried out my mission in those places and never invested myself into them. I did not "go native."

Over the last 30 years, I've taken the same attitude in the United States. I can see things happening in American culture and realize, "Of course this does not seem right...it's not my native culture." And can look at it with a measure of detachment--because I realize this is not my home--and see how American culture has always been wrong.

American culture did not just recently stop being the culture of my home...it's never been the culture of my home, and the fruit it bears today comes from the seeds planted 300 years ago and cultivated until today. Nothing is being reaped that had not been sown.

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the aliens dispersed throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, Bithynia, [United States, Japan, England, China, and India]

Chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.


Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,


To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you. -- 1 Peter
 
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Psalm 91

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That is a big question and I am not an expert on the Enlightenment.

If I may make a humble effort: It was an effort to elevate reason and skepticism over superstition and tradition, to advance the scientific method, to question and break down the inter-meshing of the hereditary aristocracy and the church and the resulting concept of the "Divine Right of Kings", to lessen religiously fueled warfare, to promote freedom, democracy and "natural law" which Enlightenment thinkers considered universal.

The Declaration of Independence is just oozing with Enlightenment thought. Just in this small portion...



It appeals, not to tradition or any religious text, but to what is recognized as "self-evident" truth. It refers to "unalienable rights" rather than privileges granted. It appeals to reason rather than authority in that "We hold...," not "I say."

That's the Enlightenment right there in a nutshell.

Someone who knows more help me out here.



[/FONT]

Most of the founding fathers were Freemasons so I guess that is a Freemason idea. Anyway, I think that self-evident could mean obvious. So, IMO, those rights are obvious and I'll give you the Judeo-Christian values since the founding fathers weren't necessarily believers. But most of the people of that time were mostly Christian whether born again, nominal or non-practicing. And the situation remains the same, though there are many unbelieving and pagan religions along with many atheists today so Christianity is more diluted, but still is the major philosophy of this country. We can do what we want in our private lives and because the major religion was always Christianity, we had more rights in the market place as well in the not too distant past. However, the enemy has control over the earth for a short time and he is working very hard to turn people away from the Lord and he's doing it by secularizing the country. Secular is THE word these days and everyone wants to be cool and hip. That's how the enemy works. He makes sin and unbelief so attractive that people want to be part of a movement. But God is still in control and He always saves a remnant. So as atheism grows and Islam and other religions grow, it's okay. As Christians become more hated, it's okay. We've already been warned it would happen. Let the enemy have his day because he's going into the Lake of Fire very soon and those who follow him will stand in judgement too. In the meantime, I will still say that the government is secular but the country is still Christian.
 
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wing2000

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QFT. A strong correlation between the use of the terms "Christian" and "American" are not good for either Christians or America. Christianity is an internal phenomenon that knows no national boundaries. To say that we are Americans is to comment on our outward circumstances, not our inward states.

Well said.
 
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wing2000

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Now, I have had the useful experience of having spent 13 years in the Far East, walking amidst cultures that were clearly alien to my own upbringing. So I have already had the experience of looking at the practices of the local natives and saying, "That's not my culture" and having a detachment from it, even if those native practices were physically pleasant. "That's not how we do things in my home."

I carried out my mission in those places and never invested myself into them. I did not "go native."

Over the last 30 years, I've taken the same attitude in the United States. I can see things happening in American culture and realize, "Of course this does not seem right...it's not my native culture." And can look at it with a measure of detachment--because I realize this is not my home--and see how American culture has always been wrong.

American culture did not just recently stop being the culture of my home...it's never been the culture of my home, and the fruit it bears today comes from the seeds planted 300 years ago and cultivated until today. Nothing is being reaped that had not been sown.

Thanks for sharing.

Living abroad affords one the opportunity to step outside our American culture and reflect on its strengths and weaknesses.
 
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Dave Ellis

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We were founded on Judeo-Christian values. We are all entitled to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, which is not a pagan value.

If you read your bible, those aren't Christian values either.... And the country was not founded on "Judeo-Christian" anything.
 
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AFM

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If you read your bible, those aren't Christian values either.... And the country was not founded on "Judeo-Christian" anything.

Exactly! America is the child of rebellion against Great Britain, it's mother country. 1 Peter 2:13: "Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;"

As I said before - America is not a Christian nation nor was one in it's past. It simply had a lot of Christians in it. It's not a 'Christian house' It's a 'house with Christians in it'. Think of it like a Christian running into a bar because there's a terrible hurricane outside. He doesn't approve of the bar nor call it Christian. His presence doesn't make it Christian either. If you put a thousand Christians in there, what will it be? A very crowded bar.
 
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Dave Ellis

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Exactly! America is the child of rebellion against Great Britain, it's mother country. 1 Peter 2:13: "Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;"

As I said before - America is not a Christian nation nor was one in it's past. It simply had a lot of Christians in it. It's not a 'Christian house' It's a 'house with Christians in it'. Think of it like a Christian running into a bar because there's a terrible hurricane outside. He doesn't approve of the bar nor call it Christian. His presence doesn't make it Christian either. If you put a thousand Christians in there, what will it be? A very crowded bar.



Or a place with a lot of drunken Christians :)
 
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Stone Butterfly

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America will always boast itself a Christan nation. Because Christians played a huge role in its creation and because Christians will always live here.

Atheists hate that! That's why they fail when they try to rewrite the history.

Thanks be to God for the Christians who have posted the evidence that refutes the fables some hope to create about America not having a Christian history.

If the Atheists and the anti-freedom groups get their way there will be no evidence of Christianity in America.
This thread should alert all Christians as to that agenda. The major players for it are posting here.
 
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Gadarene

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America will always boast itself a Christan nation. Because Christians played a huge role in its creation and because Christians will always live here.

Atheists hate that! That's why they fail when they try to rewrite the history.

Thanks be to God for the Christians who have posted the evidence that refutes the fables some hope to create about America not having a Christian history.

If the Atheists and the anti-freedom groups get their way there will be no evidence of Christianity in America.
This thread should alert all Christians as to that agenda. The major players for it are posting here.

I'm a major player for the Evil Atheist Conspiracy? Awesome! They never sent me the memo.
 
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Dave Ellis

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America will always boast itself a Christan nation. Because Christians played a huge role in its creation and because Christians will always live here.

Atheists hate that! That's why they fail when they try to rewrite the history.

Thanks be to God for the Christians who have posted the evidence that refutes the fables some hope to create about America not having a Christian history.

If the Atheists and the anti-freedom groups get their way there will be no evidence of Christianity in America.
This thread should alert all Christians as to that agenda. The major players for it are posting here.



The only people trying to rewrite history is the religious. I'm not denying some of the founding fathers were Christian, of course they were.

What I'm arguing against is the historical revisionism pushed by the religious right that says the founding fathers were all extremely pious hardcore bible thumpers. They weren't, and many key founding fathers showed outright hostility towards Christianity.

However, the government, constitution and basis of US law has absolutely no grounding in Christianity. The country was founded in secularism, although many citizens were Christian and the church certainly has had a cultural impact on the country, sometimes good, sometimes bad.
 
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AFM

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America will always boast itself a Christan nation. Because Christians played a huge role in its creation and because Christians will always live here.

Atheists hate that! That's why they fail when they try to rewrite the history.

Thanks be to God for the Christians who have posted the evidence that refutes the fables some hope to create about America not having a Christian history.

If the Atheists and the anti-freedom groups get their way there will be no evidence of Christianity in America.
This thread should alert all Christians as to that agenda. The major players for it are posting here.

Don't you remember that George Washington led an attack on Christmas Day? Not a very Christian act, is it?

And remember this - A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, neither a bad tree good fruit.
 
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Dave Ellis

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Don't you remember that George Washington led an attack on Christmas Day? Not a very Christian act, is it?

And remember this - A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, neither a bad tree good fruit.


A lot of people aren't aware congress sat in session on Christmas Day for many years in the early stages of the nation.
 
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AFM

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A lot of people aren't aware congress sat in session on Christmas Day for many years in the early stages of the nation.

I was one of them. Thanks. That's another batch of fuel for the fire.

(Not saying I approve of Christmas or anything the way America celebrates it, but a day supposedly about Christ's birth ought to be holy.)
 
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