America--No Longer a Christian Nation

[Skaloop]

If a guy that went and steared a plane into the world trade center said he was an atheist, does that mean all atheists are bad?

Of course not. But it does mean that an atheist flew a plane into the world trade center.

Just like the fact that Christians in the past persecuted Jews doesn't mean all Christians are bad. But Christians in the past still did it.

 

[Godisgood12]

So if you distance "Christians" from the common policies of the federal and local governments of the US, as well as the common social mores and biases of the US, then you're agreeing that the US was not a Christian nation....

Only by the grace of God is America prosperous. Who attempts to take credit for what is given?

In other words, America is prosperous and only by the grace of God is it prosperous. When God leaves, so does it's prosperity.

 

[Godisgood12]

Of course not. But it does mean that an atheist flew a plane into the world trade center.

Just like the fact that Christians in the past persecuted Jews doesn't mean all Christians are bad. But Christians in the past still did it.

How come?

Back my point.

Muslims abroad claimed that Muslims wouldnt attack and kill for their cause. So who were those self proclaimed muslims claiming they were serving?

Claiming that Christians in the past are to blame for those that fought against God are to blame for wicked acts, is an act of those that commited the wicked acts.

 

[RDKirk]

Only by the grace of God is America prosperous. Who attempts to take credit for what is given?

In other words, America is prosperous and only by the grace of God is it prosperous. When God leaves, so does it's prosperity.

The government of the Pharaoh became prosperous when Joseph connived all the wealth and property of the Egyptians into the Pharaoh's hands.

Babylon was prosperous, even before Nebuchadnezzar took Israel captive.

The government of Emperor Nero was prosperous. So were the empires of England, France, and Spain.

For sure, that was all by the grace of God and for His purposes. But it doesn't say anything directly about the Godliness of those nations...only that it served God's purpose for them to be prosperous for a time.

 

[Godisgood12]

The government of the Pharaoh became prosperous when Joseph connived all the wealth and property of the Egyptians into the Pharaoh's hands.

Babylon was prosperous, even before Nebuchadnezzar took Israel captive.

The government of Emperor Nero was prosperous. So were the empires of England, France, and Spain.

For sure, that was all by the grace of God and for His purposes. But it doesn't say anything directly about the Godliness of those nations...only that it served God's purpose for them to be prosperous for a time.

2 Chronicles 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

 

[RDKirk]

2 Chronicles 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

There is that "called by my name" part to consider.

First, note that this is a passive clause. It is not "who call themselves by my name," but "who are called by my name." God does the calling, who identifies those who are "his people."

That might mean "Christians," as long as Christians realize they are Christians and not "Americans" or some other name.

And it also means that as China gains more and more Christians (it is expected that within 20 years there will be more Christians in China than the entire population of the US), God may pay more attention to the well-being of China. That's where the "growth market" is.

 

[Skaloop]

There is that "called by my name" part to consider.

First, note that this is a passive clause. It is not "who call themselves by my name," but "who are called by my name." God does the calling, who identifies those who are "his people."

Where does it say God is the only one who can call them Christians? If I call you a Christian, I am doing the calling. Nowhere does it say it has to be God.

That might mean "Christians," as long as Christians realize they are Christians and not "Americans" or some other name.

And it also means that as China gains more and more Christians (it is expected that within 20 years there will be more Christians in China than the entire population of the US), God may pay more attention to the well-being of China. That's where the "growth market" is.

But they're just calling themselves Christians. How do you know whether God or anyone else has called them Christians?

 

[Godisgood12]

There is that "called by my name" part to consider.

First, note that this is a passive clause. It is not "who call themselves by my name," but "who are called by my name."

"which are called by my name".

 

[Godisgood12]

Where does it say God is the only one who can call them Christians? If I call you a Christian, I am doing the calling. Nowhere does it say it has to be God.

It is in fact God alone that calls. A mere man may attempt, and only fool him/her self.

God have mercy if I cannot promote God on a God based site.

If an atheist calls me a christian, that is to none effect for me, for it is God alone that establishes the truth since, in fact, God alone created all that is.

Who is a human to assume credit for what he/she received?

 

[AFM]

That was the Old Testament, and an Old Testament promise. I've heard a sermon that put it this way: If you want to pick blessings out of the OT, then you have to accept all the curses as well, because you can't just be partially under the law. The blessings were given to those who obeyed the law fully and were under the law in full. That would mean sacrifices and a whole lot of other things.

 

[Skaloop]

It is in fact God alone that calls.

But again, where does it say that? It says "which is called in my name". It doesn't say who calls anyone something.

 

[AFM]

I think it means those which are recognized by the world as being Christians - ie, their behavior is a definite indicator that they are a separated people, a strange people, not like the world and not partaking in the world's ways, but rather following a God the world does not know nor wants to know.

 

[Dave Ellis]

The kicker is, all want heaven(no pain, eternal glory). Even you dave ellis.

Depends on how you define it. There are certain versions of heaven I am quite happy do not exist.

 

[Dave Ellis]

If a guy that went and steared a plane into the world trade center said he was an atheist, does that mean all atheists are bad?

No.... why would it? Same goes for that example if it were Christians, or Muslims. Just because the real hijackers were Muslim, does not mean all Muslims are bad.

But, if a society had widespead views and institutionalized repression, then it is a mark on the overall society. That does not mean all people within society agree, however the discrimination and persecution exist and is being carried out regardless.

 

[Dave Ellis]

By their fruits one shall know them.

Did their works glorify God or fight against Him?

If God says love thy neighbor, and those claiming to be christian worship hatred against a neighbor, who says they are for God, whom clearly states, love thy neighbor?

Depending what parts of scripture you read, persecuting non believers can certainly have biblical backing.

 

[AFM]

@Dave

But then how would persecuting non-believers be reaching out to them? They would see Christians as a religion of self-righteous haters rather than loving, humble people living under the Grace of God.

 

[Dave Ellis]

2 Chronicles 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Citation needed

 

[Dave Ellis]

@Dave

But then how would persecuting non-believers be reaching out to them? They would see Christians as a religion of self-righteous haters rather than loving, humble people living under the Grace of God.

There are a number of people out there that view Christianity exactly in that light.

 

[RDKirk]

@Dave

But then how would persecuting non-believers be reaching out to them? They would see Christians as a religion of self-righteous haters rather than loving, humble people living under the Grace of God.

And they do.

 

[RDKirk]

That was the Old Testament, and an Old Testament promise. I've heard a sermon that put it this way: If you want to pick blessings out of the OT, then you have to accept all the curses as well, because you can't just be partially under the law. The blessings were given to those who obeyed the law fully and were under the law in full. That would mean sacrifices and a whole lot of other things.

Most Protestant preachers "map" the Church to "Israel in the Promised Land" and extract the Promised Land promises for the Church. And, yes, that does logically mean they should extract the whole Law with the curses as well.

In 2 Corinthinans 8, however, Paul maps the Church to "Israel in the wilderness." The Church is no longer in the bondage of Egypt, but the Church is definitely not yet in her "promised land."

That induces an entirely different view.

For one thing, the Promised Land promises did not apply to "Israel in the wilderness." Nor did the most of the Legal requirements, nor even did the economic system of "Isreal in the Promised Land" apply to "Israel in the Wilderness."

The model is wholly different when we look at the Church as "Israel in the wilderness."