America founded as a "Christian Nation"

[BobRyan]

You may want laws on the Bible but someone else will want laws based on the Quran or the Bagvagita. You have to not allow any because you can't allow them all.

The United States Constitution does mention God. In Article VII, the Constitution states:

Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America the twelfth….


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Question -- in which religion is the phrase "in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven" allowed? Is it Christianity? Judaism, Islam, Hinduism or Buddhism ??

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This was brought to my attention recently -- a resolution in the house of representatives in 2009 contained a number of historic facts that are pertain to the subject of this thread

"facts that do not change" listed in that resolution including

Text - H.Res.397

Whereas the United States Supreme Court has declared throughout the course of our Nation’s history that the United States is “a Christian country”, “a Christian nation”, “a Christian people”, “a religious people whose institutions presuppose a Supreme Being”, and that “we cannot read into the Bill of Rights a philosophy of hostility to religion”;




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So while we were not founded as a "theocracy" the nation's documents point to the fact that it is a Christian nation

 

[BobRyan]

Nothing in the American Constitution says "all world religions are correct.. are equally correct". Our government allows for a paid (paid via taxes) pastor opening each session of congress with prayer. Our House chamber has on its walls the full facing portait of Moses in the center with all other historic figures related to law - only having side-views. Moses in the center because he was given the Law by God - and all others just made-it-up.

So then all the others facing along a line that points to Moses at the center.

The 23 marble relief portraits over the gallery doors of the House Chamber

America - founded as a "Christian nation".

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from Proof That America Was Founded As A Christian Nation – International Cops for Christ
The Paris Peace Treaty was the document which formally ended the Revolution and granted the United States independence from Great Britain. In a real sense, the United States formally became a nation on September 3, 1783.

When the United States became a nation, it was done in the “name of the most holy and undivided Trinity.” The preamble to this Treat states it is based upon the “Holy and undivided Trinity.” The concept of the holy Trinity is unique to Christianity. This statement means the United States was founded on the Christian faith. The complete Preamble follows:

“In the name of the most holy and undivided Trinity”

The Treaty then ends just like the Constitution with a statement it is being signed in the “Year of our Lord.” The witnesses representing the United States were John Adams, Benjamin Franklin, John Jay and D. Hartley. The section in part follows:
“In witness whereof we the undersigned, their ministers plenipotentiary, have in their name and in virtue of our full powers, signed with our hands the present definitive treaty and caused the seals of our arms to be affixed thereto.Done at Paris, this third day of September in the year of our Lord, one thousand seven hundred and eighty-three”

Treaty of Paris 1783 ***

 

[Al Touthentop]

The United States Constitution does mention God. In Article VII, the Constitution states:

Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America the twelfth….
=========================================

Question -- in which religion is the phrase "in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven" allowed? Is it Christianity? Judaism, Islam, Hinduism or Buddhism ??

=========================

So while we were not founded as a "theocracy" the nation's documents point to the fact that it is a Christian nation

"the government of the United States is in no way founded on the Christian religion.”

- Treaty of Tripoli. Signed by President Adams in 1797

 

[timothyu]

Not founded as a Christian nation, founded as a nation by Christians, or more explicitly, followers of the Masonic God.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

The United States Constitution does mention God. In Article VII, the Constitution states:

Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America the twelfth….
=========================================

Question -- in which religion is the phrase "in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven" allowed? Is it Christianity? Judaism, Islam, Hinduism or Buddhism ??

=========================

So while we were not founded as a "theocracy" the nation's documents point to the fact that it is a Christian nation

If we are strictly talking about who settled in America, it was the Puritans. Puritans were Pilgrims who had abandoned local parishes in England, and fled to the New World because of persecution. They formed small congregations of their own because the Church of England was not holy enough to meet their standards. They remained influential until other denominations grew out of their movement.

 

[Archivist]

If we are strictly talking about who settled in America, it was the Puritans. Puritans were Pilgrims who had abandoned local parishes in England, and fled to the New World because of persecution. They formed small congregations of their own because the Church of England was not holy enough to meet their standards. They remained influential until other denominations grew out of their movement.

The Puritans settled much of New England but not all colonies. Pennsylvania and Delaware were originally settled by the Quakers (except for some Swedes who remained from New Sweden). Maryland was Roman Catholic. Most of the south was Anglican. New York had a sizable number of Dutch left over from the Netherland’s colony.

 

[BobRyan]

If we are strictly talking about who settled in America, it was the Puritans. Puritans were Pilgrims who had abandoned local parishes in England, and fled to the New World because of persecution. They formed small congregations of their own because the Church of England was not holy enough to meet their standards. They remained influential until other denominations grew out of their movement.

True - but Roger Williams introduced the idea of "religious liberty" in 1636. This results in the freedom of worship clause in the first ammendment to our constitution saying "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

So then no state religion that everyone was forced to join, and no law prohibiting the free exercise of religion. But thank God that was far from mandating an atheist-state-religion. Or a nation that would not recognize Christ in its formal legal documents.

 

[BobRyan]

"the government of the United States is in no way founded on the Christian religion.”

Founded "on the Christian religion" is different from "founded as a Christian nation". Hence the documents in Post #1, #2 that would not be acceptable at all to a religion other than Christianity - where "Year of our Lord" is only in reference to Christ and the year since Christ's birth as commonly known at the time.

Were it to say "in the year of our lord Krishna" it could not be Christian or Islam it would have to be Hinduism. It is "distinctive". Just as the claim that 1787 is the "year of our Lord" as calculated from the commonly accepted date for the birth of Christ - is "distinctive" so also the term "Trinity" in the Paris Peace Treaty entered in to by the United States.

 

[miamited]

Hi bob,

Well, for my two ¢...

While the Declaration of Independence of the United States gives a glancing bow to their being a Creator God, I really have a hard time seeing the establishment of some 'christian' nation as the intent or impetus of our beginning as a nation, which would have been roughly 1776. There is absolutely no mention of Jesus in any of our national establishment documents that would indicate a 'christian' nation. After all, 'christian' is a word that begins with Christ.

Yes, there were some likely christian men involved in the establishment of our nation, but they don't seem to have pushed any particularly 'christian' initiative in the their work on the new nation's behalf. There were, however, I believe the facts of the historical account of the men who established the nation, many men who believed in a deity. According to most evidence that I've seen, some were agnostic and quite a few are actually labeled as Deists.

Here's a clip from AmericanProgress.org:
Many of the founding fathers—Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, Madison and Monroe—practiced a faith called Deism. Deism is a philosophical belief in human reason as a reliable means of solving social and political problems.

In his book 'The Faiths of the Founding Fathers', byDavid L. Holmes of the College of William & Mary

The main thesis of the book, found on page 134, is that the U.S. Founding Fathers fell into three religious categories:

1. the smallest group, founders who had left their Judeo-Christian heritages and become advocates of the Enlightenment religion of nature and reason called "Deism". These figures included Thomas Paine and Ethan Allen.[page needed]
2. the founders who remained practicing Christians. They retained a supernaturalist world view, a belief in the divinity of Jesus Christ, and an adherence to the teachings of their denomination. These founders included Patrick Henry, John Jay, and Samuel Adams. Holmes also finds that most of the wives and daughters of the founders fell into this category.
3. the largest group consisted of founders who retained Christian loyalties and practice but were influenced by Deism. They believed in little or none of the miracles and supernaturalism inherent in the Judeo-Christian tradition. Holmes finds a spectrum of such Deistic Christians among the founders, ranging from John Adams and George Washington on the conservative right to Benjamin Franklin and James Monroe on the skeptical left.

It will likely be argued for decades to come as it has been for decades preceding, whether or not there really was any particularly 'christian' intent in establishing the United States as a sovereign nation. I think that most of the historical record points to a body of people who wanted freedom from the tyranny of England, and while they did, as I say give a nod to a Creator God, it was really this issue of being parted from the rule of England more than the establishment of a christian nation that they were after.

However, it should be pointed out that there are actually many nations upon the face of the earth who have given much similar acquiescence to God in their establishment documents.
Algeria recently established an invocatio that says: "In the Name of God the Merciful and the Compassionate"
Albania tended to hedge its reliance on God: "We, the people of Albania, proud and aware of our history, with responsibility for the future, and with faith in God and/or other universal values, ... We establish this Constitution:"
Australia: "Whereas the people of New South Wales, Victoria, South Australia, Queensland, and Tasmania, humbly relying on the blessing of Almighty God, have agreed to unite in one indissoluble Federal Commonwealth under the Crown ... Be it therefore enacted ... as follows:"
Ireland holds the most 'christian' invocatio: "In the Name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom is all authority and to Whom, as our final end, all actions both of men and States must be referred, We, the people of Éire, humbly acknowledging all our obligations to our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ, who sustained our fathers through centuries of trial, (...) do hereby adopt, enact, and give to ourselves this Constitution."

So, if we are to rate nations as 'christian' based on some of the same factors by which we rate the establishment of the U.S., I would have to say that Ireland is a more 'christian' nation than the U.S.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

 

[HARK!]

H. RES. 397

Affirming the rich spiritual and religious history of our Nation’s founding and subsequent history and expressing support for designation of the first week in May as “America’s Spiritual Heritage Week” for the appreciation of and education on America’s history of religious faith.

 

[miamited]

H. RES. 397

Affirming the rich spiritual and religious history of our Nation’s founding and subsequent history and expressing support for designation of the first week in May as “America’s Spiritual Heritage Week” for the appreciation of and education on America’s history of religious faith.

Hi hark,

To be clear, none of that is particularly 'christian' in nature. As is now the new norm in public discourse, when we acknowledge 'religious faith', we are acknowledging 'all' religious faith. That runs from Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, and Judaism to about another dozen or so basic religions. Despite the anger that his words inflamed, President Obama was correct when he stated that America is not only a christian nation. I don't think that we could ever have said about America that it was only a christian nation.

For me, for that resolution to be about 'christian' faith, then it has to give some acknowledgement to Jesus, our Lord. For it is Jesus, and him alone that sets the faith of Israel, Judaism, apart from the faith preached by Paul and the first disciples.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

 

[HARK!]

Hi hark,

To be clear, none of that is particularly 'christian' in nature. As is now the new norm in public discourse, when we acknowledge 'religious faith', we are acknowledging 'all' religious faith. That runs from Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, and Judaism to about another dozen or so basic religions. Despite the anger that his words inflamed, President Obama was correct when he stated that America is not only a christian nation. I don't think that we could ever have said about America that it was only a christian nation.

For me, for that resolution to be about 'christian' faith, then it has to give some acknowledgement to Jesus, our Lord. For it is Jesus, and him alone that sets the faith of Israel, Judaism, apart from the faith preached by Paul and the first disciples.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

Hi Ted,

You might want to read through it again, a little more carefully.

Whereas political scientists have documented that the most frequently cited source in the political period known as The Founding Era was the Bible;

Whereas political scientists have documented that the most frequently cited source in the political period known as The Founding Era was the Bible;

Whereas upon approving the Declaration of Independence, John Adams declared that the Fourth of July “ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty”;

Whereas in 1777, Congress, facing a National shortage of “Bibles for our schools, and families, and for the public worship of God in our churches,” announced that they “desired to have a Bible printed under their care & by their encouragement” and therefore ordered 20,000 copies of the Bible to be imported “into the different ports of the States of the Union”;

Whereas in 1782, Congress pursued a plan to print a Bible that would be “a neat edition of the Holy Scriptures for the use of schools” and therefore approved the production of the first English language Bible printed in America that contained the congressional endorsement that “the United States in Congress assembled … recommend this edition of the Bible to the inhabitants of the United States”;

Whereas the 1783 Treaty of Paris that officially endied the Revolution and established America as an independent begins with the appellation “In the name of the most holy and undivided Trinity”;

Shalom

 

[miamited]

Hi Hark,

Thanks for your response:
Certainly there are some evidences that christian men were working within our government. I haven't ever denied that.

As to the bibles being imported in 1777...

Bibles had always been imported into the states. There was always a need for bibles because there were fellowships in the colonies just as there are today that met on Sunday and likely a few other days for worship and Scriptures study and exposition. Yes, there were christians living in the colonies before we became a nation and those same people were living here in 1777 and desired bibles. The English law prohibited the printing of bibles in English accept under authority of the crown. This authority had only been given to a select group of English printers (Oxford and Cambridge University press, and one printer in Scotland). So, under English law all bible has to be imported from England. However, the war threw broke that supply chain and so, as a normal part of replacing goods that the colonies had been receiving from England, new sources had to be found and so Congress did put out an order to bring in bibles from Holland, Scotland or anywhere else where they may be obtained.

The Congressional request was not incited by Congress itself, but three clergy men appealed to the Congress to find a way to get bibles. Initially requesting that bibles be printed in the colonies, but printing and paper were not available in the colonies at that time.

My source: JULY 15 - Congress approves printing Bible - 'The Bible of the Revolution'

As to your second claim that Congress enacted a law allowing the printing of bibles in 1782 for the purpose of 'schools' is arguable. This action actually stemmed from the previous action of 1777. We still didn't have a reliable source of bibles and so Robert Aitken appealed to the Congress to authorize a printing of his translation of the Scriptures. They did.

As I previously said, this issue will likely continue to be debated, and while I'm not particularly convinced that we were established as a christian nation, yes, there were things done that would be christian in nature. However, for what purpose and how we were established 300 years ago isn't really of much importance to us. We have to deal with the here and now, and I personally feel that it is quite evident that as a nation, we aren't particularly christian. First off, we are way to warmongering to be any representation of what Jesus taught that we should be as christians. Secondly, as a nation we seem to be constantly battling any effort to show love and concern for the least and the lost.

It seems to me that most of those who claim some deep christian roots that established our nation are really more about patriotism than godliness. When I look at God's establishment of Israel, I don't see that He gave them full flight for their freedoms as we seem to enjoy today. In fact, God's law upon Israel put them under a heavier burden to follow a law that was quite a bit more strict than other nations enjoyed in that day. I'm always humored when Americans get their tighty whiteys all twisted up about personal freedoms and the practice thereof. Most of what we hold as personal freedoms, I don't think Jesus would be approving of. You see, as I see it, too much personal freedom leads to exactly what we have become.

I know that there will be disagreements regarding this, but I don't honestly believe that Jesus is ok with our freedom to own private firearms. It has led to our being the most murderous nation in the world. Do you think that's how Jesus sees a nation following after his heart? Do you really think that Jesus, looking down from the right hand of the father, sees all the murder, lust, greed and general mayhem of what is the United States of America and says, "that's the nation after my heart."

God bless,
In Christ, ted

 

[HARK!]

However, for what purpose and how we were established 300 years ago isn't really of much importance to us. We have to deal with the here and now, and I personally feel that it is quite evident that as a nation, we aren't particularly christian. First off, we are way to warmongering to be any representation of what Jesus taught that we should be as christians. Secondly, as a nation we seem to be constantly battling any effort to show love and concern for the least and the lost.

Our founders warned us about foreign entanglements. As a conservative American, one should adhere to the principles laid out by the founders.

I know that there will be disagreements regarding this, but I don't honestly believe that Jesus is ok with our freedom to own private firearms. It has led to our being the most murderous nation in the world. Do you think that's how Jesus sees a nation following after his heart?

Yahshua made it clear that he supported personal protection; when he told his disciples to go buy swords. (an illegal act under Roman law to my understanding) Concerning murder, I would encourage you the read More Guns, Less Crime by John Lott. It debunks the propaganda purported by the Left, concerning guns in the hands of law abiding Americans. In the vast majority of cases, the murderous intruder is scared off without a shot being fired.

 

[miamited]

Hi hark,

Thanks for your response:

I would encourage you the read More Guns, Less Crime by John Lott. It debunks the propaganda purported by the Left, concerning guns in the hands of law abiding Americans.

Well, there are facts out there. The U.S. has more guns in the hands of the public than pretty much any other nation on a per capita basis. On that some per capita basis we also have a vastly greater number of deaths by firearms. I doubt that your author could really convince me that those facts aren't true. That Americans are safer than the citizens of all the other nations that have fewer firearms in the hands of the populace from firearms deaths because we have more guns. For me, the premise just seems to obviously ring false when held against the evidence that we have around the globe. Now, it may be true that in some cases, although you seem to think that there are a 'vast' number, someone owning a firearm may stop a killing. I think it's probably more likely that someone who owns a firearm may stop a crime, than stop a killing.

If I remember to, I'm going to ask the Lord when we meet, because I hear the argument all the time that Jesus meant for us to protect ourselves when he instructed his disciples to buy a sword, yet when two offered that they had such an item he said that was enough, whether that discussion was in order that the disciples could protect themselves. Reading the lives of the disciples and studying their known history, it doesn't seem that's how the disciples understood it. There is, to my knowledge, not a single account of any disciple doing such a thing though they were nearly all persecuted and martyred.

However, each is free to believe as they are led.

Just for fun, I googled 'defensive gun statistics'. It's amazing the broad swath of numbers that are out there on this subject. Some claiming that there are millions of cases of defensive gun use and some claiming only a few. For example:

The latest data show that people use guns for self-defense only rarely. According to a Harvard University analysis of figures from the National Crime Victimization Survey, people defended themselves with a gun in nearly 0.9 percent of crimes from 2007 to 2011.

vs.

The most comprehensive study ever conducted about defensive gun use in the United States was a 1995 survey published by criminologist Gary Kleck in the Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology. This study reported between 2.1 and 2.5 million defensive gun uses every year.

However, I think that all of these studies overlook the option of what it might be like if none of the guns were there. Not the criminals, nor the victims.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

 

[BobRyan]

Hi bob,

Well, for my two ¢...

While the Declaration of Independence of the United States gives a glancing bow to their being a Creator God, I really have a hard time seeing the establishment of some 'christian' nation as the intent or impetus of our beginning as a nation, which would have been roughly 1776. There is absolutely no mention of Jesus in any of our national establishment documents that would indicate a 'christian' nation.

Certainly we can agree that the founding documents for our civil government are not "doctrinal dissertations" on all the doctrines of Christianity. But that is not "the test" of whether the nation was established as a "Christian nation" - the test is in the references to God in its founding documents, treaties, etc. If it appeals to atheism, or Krishna, or Allah, or Muhammad then fine it is distinctively one of those sorts... but if it is using phrases distinctive of Christ "in the year of our LORD 1787" or a direct appeal to "The Trinity" as in the Paris Peace treaty - then it is not at all a case of being founded without any reference to the Christian God.

By contrast no reference at all to "Lord Krishna" or to atheism or Allah, or ... which you might expect if we were founded as one of those kinds of nations, or if we were trying to place every reference to Christ and the Trinity in a kind of 'also ran' status , and so listing all the others as well each time one distinctive mention of Christ comes up.

 

[BobRyan]

Yes, there were some likely christian men involved in the establishment of our nation,

But my OP and second post here are not referencing a note dropped into our documents of the form "by the way - some of us here happen to be Christians" - I am pointing out the fact that document makes distinctively Christian references in terms of the birth of Christ for 'The Year of our Lord" and the Trinity itself in the Paris Treaty - none of which would be acceptable for Hindus, Muslims, Atheists etc.

but they don't seem to have pushed any particularly 'christian' initiative in the their work on the new nation's behalf.

The various documents establishing and founding this civil government do not cover a lot of "doctrine" - other than the fact that God is Creator, the Trinity, and Christ was born 2000 years ago. But they are not supposed to be doctrinal texts - so the fact that they include any of that is "instructive".

But it is "telling" that they provide for each session of congress to be opened by prayer - a paid clergyman and for the first few hundred years I don't think it was composed of a "rotation" between Muslim, atheist, witches, Christians... it was always Christian.

Christian Deism: "Christian deism is a standpoint in the philosophy of religion, which branches from Christianity. It refers to a deist who believes in the moral teachings—but not divinity—of Jesus."

Which cannot be said of the "Trinity" reference in the Paris Treaty -- but given the non-doctrinal content of the Constitution - you could get some Christian deists to agree on the year as the "Year of our Lord". Their decision to pay a Christian pastor to pray at the opening of each session of Congress indicates the fact that they knew that pure deism was not the will of the people or the majority of congress.

 

[Al Touthentop]

Founded "on the Christian religion" is different from "founded as a Christian nation". Hence the documents in Post #1, #2 that would not be acceptable at all to a religion other than Christianity - where "Year of our Lord" is only in reference to Christ and the year since Christ's birth as commonly known at the time.

That was the common nomenclature of the time, it does not indicate a preference for any particular religion. The founders were not Christians but Deists.

We have system where we are told we have a participatory role. Thus we're allowed to do so. Some people would read Romans 13 so tightly that it would make us obedient to people like Hitler. Peter told the Sanhedrin that our loyalty is to God rather than men. So no matter what sort of government we have, when it resorts to murder (such as the drone bombing of a 16 year old citizen under Obama, or the shooting of an 8 year old little girl - his sister, under Trump) we can rightfully reject it's actions as not the will of our Lord.

Our Presidents have rarely been Christian or acted on any Christian principles going all the way back to Washington.

 

[Al Touthentop]

Hi hark,


However, I think that all of these studies overlook the option of what it might be like if none of the guns were there. Not the criminals, nor the victims.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

Then they would use other weapons. Going after the weapons is folly. Switzerland has a nation in which every household has two fully automatic machine guns for every male of age, issued by the government. They don't use them to kill each other.

The issue is with human behavior, not the instrument. In spite of the media hype, crime has been going down rather than up, including gun crimes.

Crime has gone back down to the level it was in the 60s and it still continues to decline.

 

[BobRyan]

That was the common nomenclature of the time, it does not indicate a preference for any particular religion. The founders were not Christians but Deists.
.

Correction: Some of them were Christians and a few others were "Christian Deists" they believed in Jesus and would have all agreed that it was "the Year of Our Lord 1786" without question. The debate on the part of "a few" was simply over the divine nature of Christ - which they do not insert into the Constitution as it could never have been accepted by the majority of Americans with language such as that... and they knew it.

More "telling" is that the voted to have tax dollars pay a minister to open every session of congress even though they knew that minister "would not be a deist".

The point in the OP and title is not "all signers of the constitution were Baptist". The point is that the founding documents point unmistakably to Christianity.