America absolutely loves a war...... but rarely does it bring peace

Tallguy88

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Iran has not invaded another country, has not used its military to destroy the legal regime of another country. I'll judge Iran more after my visit.

Iran–Iraq War - Wikipedia

Though not the initial aggressor, Iran spent the last six years of the war on the offensive in Iraq. So they did invade another country, even though Iraq started the war. If you want to argue that that doesn't count, then WW1, WW2, and Afghanistan shouldn't count against the USA.

America has been involved in more wars than any other nation

Gonna need some sort of proof for that claim. Considering the USA is one of the youngest countries in the world, it's hard to believe this is the case vs thousands-of-years-old countries in Europe and Asia, especially considering the super-broad interpretation of what a "war" is that the USA is being held to. Is every feudal border dispute in Europe being counted as a war? Is every dynastic civil war in China being counted against it? Every tribal raid in Africa being counted against those nations? I seriously doubt that the USA has been involved in the most wars in history by any reasonable standard.

and spends more on its miliatary than any any other nation, with all that miliatary hardware available I believe conflict is more likely. The miliatary has too big an influence on policy.

This is a reasonable point of debate. It comes up plenty often enough in our American political debates, though both Democrats and Republicans have no desire to change it. Staying a superpower requires money, and no one wants us to be overtaken technologically or operationally by Russia or China.

And I'm not being indignant, the title of the thread was designed to get attention and it worked. I still think the world would be better if the US and others, involved their miliatary in other people's problems less frequently.
I'm in complete agreement there. There's no need for us to get our people killed fighting in third world cesspools. We gain nothing from it and we don't improve the stability of the region.
 
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Tallguy88

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Sounds to me like you're country is getting fleeced by congress and the military industrial complex.
The F-22 program was started by Congress and killed by Congress. My relative was highly involved in the development of the jet and he certainly isn't happy how he basically spent decades of his life designing a jet that made it all the way to the production stage and was then killed by politicians after only 180 were made.

It's still one of the most (if not THE most) advanced air-to-air fighter jets the world has ever seen. Currently, Lockheed-Martin still produces the parts to maintain the existing aircraft. Boeing likely does the same with the parts the Feds allowed them to produce.

Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor - Wikipedia
 
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Nithavela

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The F-22 program was started by Congress and killed by Congress. My relative was highly involved in the development of the jet and he certainly isn't happy how he basically spent decades of his life designing a jet that made it all the way to the production stage and was then killed by politicians after only 180 were made.

It's still one of the most (if not THE most) advanced air-to-air fighter jets the world has ever seen. Currently, Lockheed-Martin still produces the parts to maintain the existing aircraft. Boeing likely does the same with the parts the Feds allowed them to produce.

Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor - Wikipedia
Hope your pilots aren't rusty when the aliens invade and you need will smith to pilot against them.
 
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Tallguy88

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The revolution cannot be a war, by definition you weren't a country till you won that one, so that counts in your favour.

Historically we British have been in hundreds of conflicts, history is complex, i'm more concerned over the present and the US in my opinion is still too eager to use its vast military might, and we'd all be a little better off if they used it a bit less and used diplomacy a bit more.
In that case, we are only really involved in one war, Afghanistan, that has US boots on the ground. From the get-go, we had broad international support in this war due to the 9/11 attacks. Your own country and most of Europe, Australia, and Canada are involved in the war, so I don't see how you can count it against the US specifically. Iraq was much more questionable, but again, you joined us in that war.
 
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Dave RP

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Iran–Iraq War - Wikipedia

Though not the initial aggressor, Iran spent the last six years of the war on the offensive in Iraq. So they did invade another country, even though Iraq started the war. If you want to argue that that doesn't count, then WW1, WW2, and Afghanistan shouldn't count against the USA.



Gonna need some sort of proof for that claim. Considering the USA is one of the youngest countries in the world, it's hard to believe this is the case vs thousands-of-years-old countries in Europe and Asia, especially considering the super-broad interpretation of what a "war" is that the USA is being held to. Is every feudal border dispute in Europe being counted as a war? Is every dynastic civil war in China being counted against it? Every tribal raid in Africa being counted against those nations? I seriously doubt that the USA has been involved in the most wars in history by any reasonable standard.



This is a reasonable point of debate. It comes up plenty often enough in our American political debates, though both Democrats and Republicans have no desire to change it. Staying a superpower requires money, and no one wants us to be overtaken technologically or operationally by Russia or China.


I'm in complete agreement there. There's no need for us to get our people killed fighting in third world cesspools. We gain nothing from it and we don't improve the stability of the region.
All good points mate, this is how a decent discussion should be.
 
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Tallguy88

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Hope your pilots aren't rusty when the aliens invade and you need will smith to pilot against them.
What? There are 180ish operational at this time, plus tens of thousands of other aircraft. Not sure why our pilots would ever be considered "rusty" if they were called into action.
 
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Dave RP

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In that case, we are only really involved in one war, Afghanistan, that has US boots on the ground. From the get-go, we had broad international support in this war due to the 9/11 attacks. Your own country and most of Europe, Australia, and Canada are involved in the war, so I don't see how you can count it against the US specifically. Iraq was much more questionable, but again, you joined us in that war.

We did, with appalling consequences for the poor people of Iraq. I take your point, I think Iraq has clouded all our judgements, but right now it does feel as if the US flexing its mighty miliatary muscules is not always beneficial.
 
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Tallguy88

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6% of a small amount is a small amount, 4% of a huge amount is a huge amount, what's your point? The UK spends about the same as Russia on Military spending, and some in the UK believe we are not spending enough.
You don't need to spend more because the US protects you and the rest of Western Europe. If we drastically cut military spending, closed all foreign bases and pulled back to the US and became isolationist, what do you think would happen? Russia and China would begin a massive military buildup against each other and start a new cold war between themselves. European and SE Asian nations would also need to majorly ramp up their defenses since they could no longer count on US support.

I'm not necessarily opposed to us pulling back to the US either. But it's really a Pandora's Box situation.
 
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Dave RP

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You don't need to spend more because the US protects you and the rest of Western Europe. If we drastically cut military spending, closed all foreign bases and pulled back to the US and became isolationist, what do you think would happen? Russia and China would begin a massive military buildup against each other and start a new cold war between themselves. European and SE Asian nations would also need to majorly ramp up their defenses since they could no longer count on US support.

I'm not necessarily opposed to us pulling back to the US either. But it's really a Pandora's Box situation.
I don't know, but why the he'll can't we just live and let live??????
 
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Tallguy88

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We did, with appalling consequences for the poor people of Iraq. I take your point, I think Iraq has clouded all our judgements, but right now it does feel as if the US flexing its mighty miliatary muscules is not always beneficial.
Yes. What we aren't so good at, is nation building. Iraq would have gone a lot smoother if we had done them like we did the Japanese and left the Baathist government more-or-less intact, minus the really bad guys like Saddam and Chemical Ali. Instead we got rid of them all (and the Iraq Army) and had to build it all back from the ground up, basically making enemies out of everyone and allies out of no one.
 
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Tallguy88

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I don't know, but why the he'll can't we just live and let live??????
That would be the ideal. But history shows what endless appeasement and concessions bring about. Some people are just evil and want to conquer the world.
 
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Nithavela

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What? There are 180ish operational at this time, plus tens of thousands of other aircraft. Not sure why our pilots would ever be considered "rusty" if they were called into action.
Well, it's not like they're actually fighting something for real, are they?

When was the last time a fighter pilot shot at another plane in anger?
 
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Tallguy88

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Well, it's not like they're actually fighting something for real, are they?

When was the last time a fighter pilot shot at another plane in anger?
Don't know exactly, probably the invasion of Iraq. Are you arguing that we don't need fighter jets?

Either way, the F-22 is a fighter/bomber.
 
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Nithavela

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Don't know exactly, probably the invasion of Iraq. Are you arguing that we don't need fighter jets?
Well, an army needs fighter jets. I'm just wondering if you need fighter jets that are so much better than any competition. What did the Iraqis use, Migs?
 
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Tallguy88

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Well, an army needs fighter jets. I'm just wondering if you need fighter jets that are so much better than any competition.

Well, yes. Of course! That's how you win wars. Your guy's fighters were better than ours at the start of the war, but then we designed better ones and eventually established air superiority over Europe and Japan. Same thing in the Cold War we were always competing with the USSR in technological advances. Even now Russia and China continue aircraft R&D, we are just ahead of them. Why should we wait for them to catch up?

But that was one of the arguments for discontinuing the program in favor of the F-35. That it was just too expensive and too advanced to be needed on a large scale. The F-35 is better bang for our buck, but it's not as advanced of an aircraft.

What did the Iraqis use, Migs?
Probably. Most were destroyed on the ground.
 
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Dave RP

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In that case, we are only really involved in one war, Afghanistan, that has US boots on the ground. From the get-go, we had broad international support in this war due to the 9/11 attacks. Your own country and most of Europe, Australia, and Canada are involved in the war, so I don't see how you can count it against the US specifically. Iraq was much more questionable, but again, you joined us in that war.

We did join you in that war, much to our shame. We had 1,000,000 marching through London before the war but Tony Blair rode roughshod over public opinion and used the famous dodgy WMD intelligence reports to justify the war. The war was bad enough but the US and UK and whoever else so ballsed up the peace that the poor people of Iraq are still suffering now. Saddam Hussein provided stability via his brutal regime.

The legacy of the Iraq war is that it will be nigh on impossible to get any conflict through the UK parliament where British Troops are expected to go to a foreign country, UK public opinion will simply not tolerate interference in other countries without a properly proven threat, and one which is likely to be used.

Western interference in the Middle East has not brought stability, sadly, it's ruined Iraq, it's ruined Libya and I can't see any circumstances where will will go blundering in again, unless we are attacked first.

I'm not sure similar reticence exists in the US.
 
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Paidiske

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franky67

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With tensions rising in Korea and two unstable leaders facing off, the concern must be that the US is the most belligerent nation on earth, has been involved in more wars than any other country, and frequently the outcome is appalling for the countries America was supposed to be helping.

Since WW2 the US has had wars in Lebanon (twice), Cuba, Congo, Vietnam, Thailand, Zaire, Grenada, Libya (twice), Panama, Iraq (twice), Somalia, Haiti, Bosnia, Kosovo and has continuing operations in Syria, Afghanistan and Iraq.

Libya is a total mess with internal factions fighting each other, Iraq has been all but destroyed thanks to the incompetence of the US and its allies, Afghanistan barely functions as a state, Somalia is disintegrating......

So, if you were the North Korea leader, you saw what the US and its allies had done to other countries where (arguably illegal) regime change was on the cards, you saw the might of the US army just over your border and you knew as a poor country with a population of 25 million you could not hold back a conventional assault, what would you do?

The North Koreans know that the only way to truly protect themselves is to have weapons that match the US, and show they might use them. Whilst we might not like that fact, unless and until there is a long term solution to Korea, which involves China and Russia, the US in this instance cannot simply go blundering in and ensure the deaths of millions.

It's time to step back from the brink and find a different way but does Trump have the brain to do so?

"Peace in our time" ?
 
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SBC

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It's time to step back from the brink and find a different way but does Trump have the brain to do so?

The Power to declare war, rests with the Power and Authority of the US Congress.

US Constitution, Article 1, Seciton 8.

God Bless,
SBC
 
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Nithavela

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The Power to declare war, rests with the Power and Authority of the US Congress.

US Constitution, Article 1, Seciton 8.

God Bless,
SBC
The power to declare nuclear strikes rests with the president.
 
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