America a post-Christian nation

buzuxi02

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The United States.... An evil Protestant nation of greed, avarice, indifference, phony Christianity, exploitation, sinister machinations, cruelty, and barbarism.....that is so bad that all the haters still stay in her bosom conveniently bashing her within her boarders as they live lives of financial comfort and freedoms they'd never have in many countries.

If this country is so irredeemable and Satanic, why are we all living here? At least Rusmeister actually left! I can take his criticisms more seriously....

TAW has been so blasted negative lately. I can be a VERY cynical, negative individual at times. For the love of Pete, can we stop trashing Protestants and my country for a while? I'm the first guy to want to strap Obama to a rocket and hurl him toward the Sun, but I love my country and feel God blessed her and gave her rich graces and abundance. We need some pride and love for America along with all this pessimism once and a while.....

There is nothing wrong to be patriotic. There is that saying "it is my country whether right or wrong" (or something like that). Home is where the heart is.

Now I think most immigrants whether legal or illegal are here to make money. This is based on experience, all my relatives over 45 are immigrants and most of my co-workers are foreign born.

This is also the reason I have no problem being anti-immigrant. The truth is there would have been no difference whether I was born here or in Greece. There are only trade offs. I maybe fortunate that in the summer I have central A/C , but i simply would not have known the convenience of cool air. Likewise if I was born in Greece I would probably have a daily coffee break at the local cafes yapping about current events with friends- as that is the past time over there. Basically we Americans need to stop this "we are exceptional" nonsense at the same time westerners need to stop feeling sorry for the "unfortunate immigrants" coming here for a better life, They are phony sob stories.

Anyhow now about the secularization of Christianity in the west. If we put Christ back into Christmas, it would actually be bittersweet. Because Christmas would have to be dropped as a federal holiday due to seperation of church and state. The only reason Christmas is popular is because of materialism and big busines that market the festivities. Whether jews, hindus, chinese, atheists they all make money selling their wares during the Christmas retail season so its in everyones interest to keep it going.
Imagine if all christians adopt Jan 7 to celebrate the feast of the Nativity. Lets say we opt not to participate Dec 25. We would still have festivities, we will still celebrate with food and sweets just like on Easter. It will be the secular humanists who will realize they are like robots. We will celebrate with food and music and rich traditions while they will be like Jehovahs Witness devoid of holidays. They will peddle their nonsense of the imaginary wars religion wages, while their children will see through it, how bland of a childhood devoid of any festivities. Which I feel is already happening, so many teens I know filling the void by smoking pot and sneaking alcohol because they hace no families to pass down the traditions.
 
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E.C.

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The United States quite officially professes its faith in God, and since the time of the Revolution, the American nation has believed to have had a special mystical relationship with God, sealed by a sacred document. American people consider themselves chosen by God to fulfil a historical mission for the benefit of all humankind. The Declaration of Independence, a sacred document within the American scriptural canon, starts by asserting that the American people wish "to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them," and it concludes with an appeal "to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions" claiming "a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence". The USA has its own creeds, the recitation of the pledge of allegiance to the stars and stripes. It has its own particular hagiography and martyrs like Abraham Lincoln. It is very clear that the US has something of a sacralised nationalism which while related to Protestantism (I'd argue that John Calvin is the spiritual father of America) developed distinct from it and alongside it.
You're not a Jehova Witness are you?

If this country is so irredeemable and Satanic, why are we all living here? At least Rusmeister actually left! I can take his criticisms more seriously....
^_^

Gurney post has got me thinking that we need a American Orthodox Church, that is of course not the OCA.
Much as I do love the OCA and what she stands for, I do have to agree. Not because I see the OCA as a fundamentally flawed organization as some here do, but because I don't see the Orthodox administrative consolidation in the country realistically being achieved as "everyone joins the <insert jurisdiction here>". Sadly at the rate we're going it'll probably take open persecution of Christians (not that red cup bs)for it to happen.


Islam is on the rise in the West, because it is seen as a very reverent and spiritual faith by many people who are seeking faith. Muslims visibly pray 5 times per day, meticulously study the Koran, and most of them still visibly display their faith in their day to day lives. "Far Eastern" Religions like Buddhism are also on the rise in the West for similar reasons.

Western Christianity on the other hand has become devoid of spirituality, and many so called "Christians" don't act like it in their daily lives. The fringe elements of Protestantism (like the Westboro Baptist Church) are seen as an analog for all of Christianity by many secularists. The media paints Christians as cold and evil people, bent on instituting racism, sexism and discrimination if they are allowed too much power. This has led to the decline of Christianity in the West, more than anything.
The latest crap I've seen on Facebook has basically been Atheists bragging about being better than Christians because they, the Atheists, are helping the Syrian refugees when the "Christians", when they really mean "Republicans", want nothing to do with refugees.

If Christians, this includes us, started actually acting like it than how much better would our situation be? How many hospitals, schools, homeless shelters and soup kitchens have we opened? Outside of Raphael House, assuming they're still around, none that are really known. Instead we'd rather raise money for unnecessary new social halls when the existing hall is rarely even half occupied after Liturgy. Yeah, it suck that we Christians, as a whole, are getting lumped in with the Westboro Baptist types, but, frankly, we've had it coming for a while. In Seattle, for example, there are two Greek churches that formed when one split from the other because God forbid people worship in English. If that community had not split and instead opened a homeless shelter or even a soup kitchen than think about how much better the community would be for it. Just have people chant from the Psalter during meal times and that's what makes it Orthodox!
 
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Both Gurney and EC are spot on!

There is nothing wrong with being patriotic. There is something wrong however, with American Orthodox rushing to the defense of Russia, ignoring the wrong she does/has done, painting Putin as this savior of the world, and immediately labeling everything that America and the West does as automatically evil. They are also banging the war drums, expressing hope that Russia will bomb Turkey off the map, or that NATO and Russia should go to war right now. They keep bringing up a "prophecy" by Saint Paisios, hoping that it will come true.

I'm seeing tons of comments on FB from American Orthodox friends making such comments like this. This is shameful and a disgrace, and is, and I cannot say this enough, emphatically not Orthodox!

We are to love the country, and the people in our country, city, and neighborhood that God has put us in. Not loving some far off distant country, or pining for some period of history that is long over with and is not going to come back.

We are first and foremost citizens of the Kingdom of God, including you Russians, Greeks (or any other traditional Orthodox ethnicity) Orthodox Christians!

We will never be anything more than a marginalized minority in this country if we continue with such foolish shennanigans.
 
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dzheremi

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Be realistic. You'll never be anything more than a marginalized minority in this country because it will never be popular to pray and fast when you could much more easily not pray and fast, call Orthodox prayers vain repetitions or heresy, call fasting (negatively) "works salvation", etc. It hasn't been since the days of JFK's run at the presidency that people thought that being a member of a "non-American" church was really such a problem (and apparently being Roman Catholic didn't actually stop JFK from getting elected, despite the fears of some that he would take orders from the Vatican). Nowadays if someone refuses to consider an EO church due to its supposed ethnic bias, it's more than likely a debate talking point that they've come up with based on what they assume the church must be like (this is, after all, a common RC talking point; I dunno about Protestants, though), not a realistic criticism, particularly in these modern times of YouTube, message boards, and all this other stuff that allows seekers to find or be shown exactly what they're in for.

You could change every "ethnic" Orthodox church's sign to "Saint Bill Smith's American Orthodox Church of America for Really American Americans" and if a visitor felt uncomfortable for some reason (say, there were brown people there, or there were two seconds of Greek in one of the congregational responses, or some other minor reason), they'd still probably complain that it was too ethnic, too paganistic, too Roman Catholic-ish, etc. It's gotta be too something, because they don't want to fast, or icons make them uncomfortable, or whatever else.
 
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E.C.

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Both Gurney and EC are spot on!

There is nothing wrong with being patriotic. There is something wrong however, with American Orthodox rushing to the defense of Russia, ignoring the wrong she does/has done, painting Putin as this savior of the world, and immediately labeling everything that America and the West does as automatically evil. They are also banging the war drums, expressing hope that Russia will bomb Turkey off the map, or that NATO and Russia should go to war right now. They keep bringing up a "prophecy" by Saint Paisios, hoping that it will come true.

I'm seeing tons of comments on FB from American Orthodox friends making such comments like this. This is shameful and a disgrace, and is, and I cannot say this enough, emphatically not Orthodox!
I've never understood the obsession over fulfilling prophesies whether from my Protestant or Orthodox friends. Especially in matters relating to the End of the World. Much as I would love to see the Lord in the flesh here, I know for a fact I have not yet begun to prepare for it. Besides, the times before He's supposed to come back are supposed to suck and, frankly, I'm not sure if I'd like to be around for that!

Be realistic. You'll never be anything more than a marginalized minority in this country because it will never be popular to pray and fast when you could much more easily not pray and fast, call Orthodox prayers vain repetitions or heresy, call fasting (negatively) "works salvation", etc. It hasn't been since the days of JFK's run at the presidency that people thought that being a member of a "non-American" church was really such a problem (and apparently being Roman Catholic didn't actually stop JFK from getting elected, despite the fears of some that he would take orders from the Vatican). Nowadays if someone refuses to consider an EO church due to its supposed ethnic bias, it's more than likely a debate talking point that they've come up with based on what they assume the church must be like (this is, after all, a common RC talking point; I dunno about Protestants, though), not a realistic criticism, particularly in these modern times of YouTube, message boards, and all this other stuff that allows seekers to find or be shown exactly what they're in for.

You could change every "ethnic" Orthodox church's sign to "Saint Bill Smith's American Orthodox Church of America for Really American Americans" and if a visitor felt uncomfortable for some reason (say, there were brown people there, or there were two seconds of Greek in one of the congregational responses, or some other minor reason), they'd still probably complain that it was too ethnic, too paganistic, too Roman Catholic-ish, etc. It's gotta be too something, because they don't want to fast, or icons make them uncomfortable, or whatever else.
Or one could simply have no ethnicity mentioned on the sign. I know that's heresy in some areas, but I don't see anything wrong with taking the "Russian" off of St John's Russian Orthodox Church, especially when according to one priest who was at a dieing parish, removing the ethnic nomenclature would encourage the fourth generation non-Russians in town to become Orthodox.

Besides, with fasting being a matter between one and one's spiritual father; if there were an honest candidate for, say president, and he was poked and proved about his fasting habits than he simply would have to have the spine to answer adequately.
Unfortunately I do know from experience that attending a parish that is mostly of a certain ethnicity is not a mere talking point in conversation. It can, and in my case may or may not have, lead to accusations of disloyalty to the USA, being a terrorist or, my personal favorite, an ISIS sympathizer. I like to believe that in ceasing to raise ethnic ties on a pedestal we could at least be a marginalized minority that IS NOT seen as being a potential fifth column for an Eastern European country. Besides since 1948 has it ever been widespread opinion, outside of neo-Nazis and other anti-Semitic groups, that the Jews are all a fifth column for the State of Israel?
 
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dzheremi

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Or one could simply have no ethnicity mentioned on the sign.

Absolutely. This is already the case in several EO churches I've visited, and I think it's a step in the right direction. My only point is that separate from what you call the church on the sign outside (ethnic identifier or not), plenty of people are uncomfortable with the basics of the faith itself, or what they perceive to be an unwelcoming environment purely because they are from whatever background they are from (i.e., feeling unwelcome because they are a convert or potential convert, which certainly can have an ethnic component, but is also not -- strictly speaking -- something that can be fixed by de-emphasizing the ethnic roots of the church. In other words, if a church without an ethnic identifier is still majority X, then non-X might still feel uncomfortable, and it's obviously not a fit solution to get on other people about being Russian, or Serbian, or Greek, or whatever they are in an environment where that's already consciously de-emphasized).

I know that's heresy in some areas, but I don't see anything wrong with taking the "Russian" off of St John's Russian Orthodox Church, especially when according to one priest who was at a dieing parish, removing the ethnic nomenclature would encourage the fourth generation non-Russians in town to become Orthodox.

One would hope so, yes. If that's all it takes, it'd be stupid to insist on keeping it.

Besides, with fasting being a matter between one and one's spiritual father; if there were an honest candidate for, say president, and he was poked and proved about his fasting habits than he simply would have to have the spine to answer adequately.

True enough.

Unfortunately I do know from experience that attending a parish that is mostly of a certain ethnicity is not a mere talking point in conversation. It can, and in my case may or may not have, lead to accusations of disloyalty to the USA, being a terrorist or, my personal favorite, an ISIS sympathizer.

Yes. I don't mean to be flippant, but did you at some point consider telling these people who said those things that they don't actually know what they're talking about? Because that stuff is routine for people of my church purely because the majority still speak Arabic as a native language, even if all our liturgies are in English (which they by and large are, very consciously so). That sort of gets to my point: Even when/if you do all the right things to blend in or be welcoming, the fact that you're not a WASP is enough in itself to send some people into paroxysms of fear. How do you address that? It seems to me to be something a bit more deeply rooted than the sign on the door, since it's the characteristics that such critics associate with people from "over there" that makes them think that Christians could even possibly be ISIS sympathizers, and those characteristics are apparent the second that our priests, deacons, parishioners, etc. open their mouths, or even just step outside of their houses. I'm sure there are Assyrian Baptists or Arab Mormons or something that still also have to deal with this stuff. How is that fixed by changing signage? Forgive me, but I think that is overly optimistic. Would that it were enough that we spread around "Coptic American and Proud!" bumperstickers (complete with Coptic cross set against the American flag) so that the community would not be under suspicion of those who think it's patriotic to attack others for being brown and having accents. That's sadly not the world we live in. And I know plenty of EO deal with the same, especially if they're recent immigrants from Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, etc.. It's really discouraging.

I like to believe that in ceasing to raise ethnic ties on a pedestal we could at least be a marginalized minority that IS NOT seen as being a potential fifth column for an Eastern European country.

I guess I'm just more pessimistic than you are concerning these things. Unfortunately, you cannot control other peoples' perceptions of you, even as you seek to influence them by showing that you're Christian, you love America, etc. Some of my Coptic friends have even joked with me sometimes (well, semi-joked) that they must love America more than I do because they make a bigger deal out of the Thanksgiving holiday than I do, holding big celebrations of it in individuals' houses and eagerly talking about experiencing this "Black Friday" that the news keeps talking about (blehhhh). Yet none of that makes them American enough to satisfy some people's prejudices. They're tan to black skinned, they speak English with noticeable accents, they sometimes pray in "terrorist" languages (even if they're really praying in Coptic...it's not English, so it must be that terrorist mooslim secret code), etc. That's the problem for all Middle Eastern Christian immigrants, I would imagine: in their home countries they're half a Westerner by virtue of being Christian, while in their adopted countries they're half a Muslim by virtue of being from the Middle East (which means 100% terrorist to the kind of people who intimidate them just for being here).

Besides since 1948 has it ever been widespread opinion, outside of neo-Nazis and other anti-Semitic groups, that the Jews are all a fifth column for the State of Israel?

I don't know. Furthermore, I'm a bit confused as to the thinking behind this question. It can be argued that the Jews have assimilated nearly to the point where Judaism is more an ethnic identity than a widely-practiced faith in this country...isn't that exactly what you're arguing against by writing about the dangers involved in placing ethnic identity on a pedestal, above practicing or spreading the faith? I'm not sure I understand you. Can you please clarify? Thank you.
 
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E.C.

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Absolutely. This is already the case in several EO churches I've visited, and I think it's a step in the right direction. My only point is that separate from what you call the church on the sign outside (ethnic identifier or not), plenty of people are uncomfortable with the basics of the faith itself, or what they perceive to be an unwelcoming environment purely because they are from whatever background they are from (i.e., feeling unwelcome because they are a convert or potential convert, which certainly can have an ethnic component, but is also not -- strictly speaking -- something that can be fixed by de-emphasizing the ethnic roots of the church. In other words, if a church without an ethnic identifier is still majority X, then non-X might still feel uncomfortable, and it's obviously not a fit solution to get on other people about being Russian, or Serbian, or Greek, or whatever they are in an environment where that's already consciously de-emphasized).
It needs to happen more. The two Palestinian parishes I've been to both had icons of St. Patrick and are the only ones that did that weren't mostly convert. I don't know of any other saint more revered in the Western mind than he. I have to hand it to the Arabic EOs because they at least acknowledge that they're Americanizing.



Yes. I don't mean to be flippant, but did you at some point consider telling these people who said those things that they don't actually know what they're talking about? Because that stuff is routine for people of my church purely because the majority still speak Arabic as a native language, even if all our liturgies are in English (which they by and large are, very consciously so). That sort of gets to my point: Even when/if you do all the right things to blend in or be welcoming, the fact that you're not a WASP is enough in itself to send some people into paroxysms of fear. How do you address that? It seems to me to be something a bit more deeply rooted than the sign on the door, since it's the characteristics that such critics associate with people from "over there" that makes them think that Christians could even possibly be ISIS sympathizers, and those characteristics are apparent the second that our priests, deacons, parishioners, etc. open their mouths, or even just step outside of their houses. I'm sure there are Assyrian Baptists or Arab Mormons or something that still also have to deal with this stuff. How is that fixed by changing signage? Forgive me, but I think that is overly optimistic. Would that it were enough that we spread around "Coptic American and Proud!" bumperstickers (complete with Coptic cross set against the American flag) so that the community would not be under suspicion of those who think it's patriotic to attack others for being brown and having accents. That's sadly not the world we live in. And I know plenty of EO deal with the same, especially if they're recent immigrants from Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, etc.. It's really discouraging.
Oh believe me there have been several one-way conversations! What helped my cause (or not depending one one's outlook) is the fact that I speak Levantine Arabic and need to maintain it somehow.

I had my prejudices about Arabs when I started learning, though not as strongly as others due to a Palestinian grandma - type in my old parish. What helped our entire class of twelve (including a few VERY redneck Marines) was talking to our teachers as people. That and picnic days. But really once we could have a conversation with them and find out more about their backgrounds as we'd watch the Lebanese soap operas in our spare time we began to realize, as a class, that not only are Arabs, especially the Muslims, still living breathing human beings, but they also want the same things we do: a better life than before. Americans are always going to be prejudiced against the people from the Middle East; 9/11 cemented that. The only first step one can make is acknowledging that the other person is indeed human. I remember one teacher was raised a Lebanese Druze and spent his younger years working in one of the two Germanys, smoking like a chimney and drinking like a sailor a good part of the time. Sometimes we'd see him at the local hookah lounge.

A good start is always with talking. Festivals help. We celebrate Pascha beginning Saturday night and then Sunday afternoon have Agape Vespers before the food fest. I've always been a believer that we should advertise the Sunday afternoon service as, "Missed Easter? Come here two weeks later!"


I guess I'm just more pessimistic than you are concerning these things. Unfortunately, you cannot control other peoples' perceptions of you, even as you seek to influence them by showing that you're Christian, you love America, etc. Some of my Coptic friends have even joked with me sometimes (well, semi-joked) that they must love America more than I do because they make a bigger deal out of the Thanksgiving holiday than I do, holding big celebrations of it in individuals' houses and eagerly talking about experiencing this "Black Friday" that the news keeps talking about (blehhhh). Yet none of that makes them American enough to satisfy some people's prejudices. They're tan to black skinned, they speak English with noticeable accents, they sometimes pray in "terrorist" languages (even if they're really praying in Coptic...it's not English, so it must be that terrorist mooslim secret code), etc. That's the problem for all Middle Eastern Christian immigrants, I would imagine: in their home countries they're half a Westerner by virtue of being Christian, while in their adopted countries they're half a Muslim by virtue of being from the Middle East (which means 100% terrorist to the kind of people who intimidate them just for being here).
The Copts have a unique struggle because from my experience with them they don't consider themselves to be Arabs whereas EO in the Levant do. It's ignorance and sadly we can't do much to change that other than not be the stereotype.

I don't know. Furthermore, I'm a bit confused as to the thinking behind this question. It can be argued that the Jews have assimilated nearly to the point where Judaism is more an ethnic identity than a widely-practiced faith in this country...isn't that exactly what you're arguing against by writing about the dangers involved in placing ethnic identity on a pedestal, above practicing or spreading the faith? I'm not sure I understand you. Can you please clarify? Thank you.
There was chatter earlier in this thread about Russians, Greeks, etc; could be seen as potential fifth column saboteurs. I don't remember if it was you, Gurney or buzuxi, but that was on my mind while typing my reply.
I believe the point that I was making was that in not even emphasizing any given ethnicity perhaps it could lessen that suspicion. The Jews, in all their ethnic divisions, have never been seen as potential fifth columnists yet there is a synagogue for nearly every ethnic division of Judaism. Perhaps it is because they've been noticed longer (Orthodox have been on this continent nearly as long just not in the East Coast). I simply don't agree with the notion that ethnicity = fifth columnist for Orthodox Christians since no one else believes that the Jews are such for the State of Israel.
 
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~Anastasia~

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I've never understood the obsession over fulfilling prophesies whether from my Protestant or Orthodox friends. Especially in matters relating to the End of the World. Much as I would love to see the Lord in the flesh here, I know for a fact I have not yet begun to prepare for it. Besides, the times before He's supposed to come back are supposed to suck and, frankly, I'm not sure if I'd like to be around for that!

Maybe not central to the topic at hand, but I have to SO AGREE with this part!

Especially when I had so many friends who gleefully counted up every little thing they felt was part of "end times a-comin'!" ... I always wondered if they REALLY thought about what we'd have to endure? (On second thought - no they didn't. They are expecting a fly-ticket outta here before it gets difficult - maybe it's no wonder after all they look forward to it.)

But I've always felt unprepared, and especially ached for other I see not even thinking about preparing, and have long since been no longer convinced of the "left behind" scenario.

Sorry for the interruption. I so agree!
 
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All4Christ

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Yes, I think I could also be quite confident in saying I won't see another 80 years in this body, unchanged. ;)
This makes me feel old but I'm very unlikely to do that as well...although my husband's great-grandma lived to 105! The Social Security office actually visited to make sure she was still alive, lol. Still though...I'd be a bit older than 105 80 years from now. I don't know of many older than 105 :)
 
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~Anastasia~

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This makes me feel old but I'm very unlikely to do that as well...although my husband's great-grandma lived to 105! The Social Security office actually visited to make sure she was still alive, lol. Still though...I'd be a bit older than 105 80 years from now. I don't know of many older than 105 :)
Lol well I'd be older than that. I think I can very confidently assert I won't possibly see 70 years either, and 60 is next to impossible. I'll stop there though. Some days I wonder if I'll see 30 more years, lol.
 
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LivingWordUnity

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I've never understood the obsession over fulfilling prophesies whether from my Protestant or Orthodox friends. Especially in matters relating to the End of the World. Much as I would love to see the Lord in the flesh here, I know for a fact I have not yet begun to prepare for it. Besides, the times before He's supposed to come back are supposed to suck and, frankly, I'm not sure if I'd like to be around for that!
It looks like we already are around for it. The world is currently flooded with evil. It's just that in the West the devil has chosen to act primarily in a hidden way by deceiving people with lies while in the East he is primarily showing his violent side openly. But it's two sides of the same coin. A lot of people in the West are on the road to Hell and don't know it or don't care because the devil is making himself appear as an angel of light. Actually, if abortion (infanticide) is taken into consideration, the West is just as barbaric as the East if not more so. And in the West, modern/postmodern philosophy denies that truth/reality even exists. In today's world, it is said on television that "sin is in"; evil is called good and good called evil. And lies are endorsed and enforced by the most powerful government on earth which works aggressively to spread its errors to the whole world.
 
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It looks like we already are around for it. The world is currently flooded with evil. It's just that in the West the devil has chosen to act primarily in a hidden way by deceiving people with lies while in the East he is primarily showing his violent side openly. But it's two sides of the same coin. A lot of people in the West are on the road to Hell and don't know it or don't care because the devil is making himself appear as an angel of light. Actually, if abortion (infanticide) is taken into consideration, the West is just as barbaric as the East if not more so. And in the West, modern/postmodern philosophy denies that truth/reality even exists. In today's world, it is said on television that "sin is in"; evil is called good and good called evil. And lies are endorsed and enforced by the most powerful government on earth which works aggressively to spread its errors to the whole world.

Sometimes I tell myself these things. But then sometimes I wonder how bad things could POSSIBLY get, and I have to say that I can imagine worse, Lord have mercy.

Things have been bad for Christians particularly at other times and places in the history of the world.

I'm not arguing with you, btw. I rather hope this is almost the worst. I just don't know ...
 
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It looks like we already are around for it.

He did also say that when we hear of wars and rumors of wars, the end has not yet come. so while we need to be wary, we ain't there yet.
 
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He did also say that when we hear of wars and rumors of wars, the end has not yet come. so while we need to be wary, we ain't there yet.
Yes, I understand that. I'm not claiming to know the date of the Second Coming. However, I don't believe that it will be a long time away. What I mean by that is I believe that maybe it could happen within my lifetime or perhaps not long after my death.
 
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buzuxi02

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There was chatter earlier in this thread about Russians, Greeks, etc; could be seen as potential fifth column saboteurs. I don't remember if it was you, Gurney or buzuxi, but that was on my mind while typing my reply.
I believe the point that I was making was that in not even emphasizing any given ethnicity perhaps it could lessen that suspicion. The Jews, in all their ethnic divisions, have never been seen as potential fifth columnists yet there is a synagogue for nearly every ethnic division of Judaism. Perhaps it is because they've been noticed longer (Orthodox have been on this continent nearly as long just not in the East Coast). I simply don't agree with the notion that ethnicity = fifth columnist for Orthodox Christians since no one else believes that the Jews are such for the State of Israel.

Your probably thinking of me. But not in the context your thinking.
What im saying is the U.S. government already has in place 5th column agents/subversives/provacative saboteurs, within the ranks of the clergy and laity to turn on the Church and throw it under the bus.
This is why I dont want to see an american patriarch because all he would be is a paid agent of the CIA, the same way the the so called "Kievan patriarch" and the Dalai Lama are on CIA payrolls. Such 5th column saboteurs have been at work since the 17th century, how do you think there were able to divide the Syrian church between syriac miaphysite uniates and antiochan melkite uniates.
 
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