Alternate Understanding of TONGUES

[zeke37]

TONGUES of 1Cor14
i am not a cessationalist, however i don't think the "cloven tongues of fire" of Acts are seen today, at least not that i know of.

that miracle of God kickstarted the Great Commission for us...
where folks heard a message in their very own home dialect,
regardless of what dialect the person speaking it, spoke.
it was to break the language barrier and show absolute "proof" that it was from God.

no one can fake it, because "everyone listening" would bear record....
not one or two or three only...but everyone.

even in ACTS2, everyone understood the words,
even if everyone did not understand what was going on.


biblically tongues has three meanings.
it can mean the actual literal tongue
it can mean what comes out of your mouth, your words
it can mean languages

in 1Cor12/14 tongues simply means languages of men,
either known (to the audience) or not known (to the audience).

the "tongues" of 1Cor12/14 are grossly misinterpreted by the charismatic denoms.
it's not about a special prayer language/ecstatic utterances at all.

it's the proper rules on how to effectively spread the Word of God past all language barriers,
into all tongues of men using the gifts of God mentioned in 1Cor12
including using gifted foreign speaking believers and gifted interpreters of langauges, (diversities of tongues/languages)
so that the speakers words could be interpreted into the audiences language
and thus understood by the audience, so they can come to God.


my contention is that the chapter is the rules for "The Great Commission"....
spreading the Word of God to the ends of the earth

if so, then making it about charismatic prayer language/ecstatic utterances is making void the Word of God, is it not?

anyway, while those IN the practice will disagree with me,
I would still hope that they would read the following few posts with an opened mind,
and perhaps God will grow the seed in them.

as for those that are not in the practice
but who think it's real, just not for them kinda thing,
or for those without an opinion yet,
I would hope to show you the truth of the chapter

after all, it's true message is probably the reason why YOU received the Word
in a language that you could understand in the first place, so as to come to God.
"the Great Commission"

so feel free to comment, but please keep the entire chapter's running thought in mind when doing so.

 

[zeke37]

Cor14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
​

the already written word = prophesy
for a thing to be prophesy to someone, the thing must be understood
to preach something to people so they understand it, is to prophesy to them

the setting is a multi-lingual church assembly...
many different people there, all speaking many different languages
and all eager to either learn or share the Word
but there was confusion while doing so....
so Paul corrects them, over and over again about the same thing.

2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
​

by example;
if a Greek man speaks the gospel in the Greek tongue, to an englishman who does not understand greek
then he'd be preaching to only God...
it's a negative, not a positive.

even tho the greek man is in the Spirit and speaking about God
his words are a mystery to the Englishman
the speaker's knowledge is not exchanged

instead of edifying the englishman in the Lord,
his words would be unintelligible babble
only God would understand the greek man, instead of the englishman,
and the point was to edify the englishman.(the crowd)

it is a negative not a positive

if that tongue is understood, whether by birth/learned/translater/supernatural,
then those words become prophesy,
otherwise, you're speaking to God/the air/the wind/yourself...

3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
​

the positive above

4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
​

the negative first
if the tongue you speak is unknown to the audience,
then you'r only speaking to yourself (as in verse 2, to God only, or verse 9, to the air)

the positive after
if that tongue is understood then your words edify the church

5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
​

if we all spoke all tongue of man, then that would be great
but we dont so those words need to be interpreted to the audience so that those words can become prophesy to them
so the audience can be edified

6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you,
​

that's the negative
if Paul spoke in Hebrew, to those in Rome, what profit is there?

except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
​

that is the positive
the words must be understood to be revelation / knowledge and become doctrine to those in attendance

his words must be understood to be of any value

7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?
​

the negative

9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
​

explained much the same way as i explained it above
this a repeated pattern, over and over again
speak into the air is like verse 2's speak unto God...
a bad thing if you were supposed to edify the audience.

10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.
11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.
​

again
if we speak and hear babble, then it will sound like babble
this refers to gentile tongues/languages.

if we were to speak greek to an Englishman, the Englishman here's barbarian speech

12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.
​

edify the church by them understanding your words.
remember that this is a multi-lingual gentile nation.
folks gathered there to share scriptures and the gospel and to praise God

it evidently was mass confusion because there was no order
ie. the greek man preaching in greek, to a crowd filled with a multitude of people
speaking different tongues/languages/dialects than each other...
people talking over one another etc
probably 10 sermons going on all at once...wow what a headache
confusion

13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
​

that he (his greek words) may be interpreted by another in attendance
someone who is a believer, that also who speaks one or more of the crowds tongue/language

having an orderly way to spread the Good News is paramount

14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
​

if I pray out loud, to an audience in my ie. native greek language
and that audience doesn't understand greek
then even tho i am in the Spirit, even tho i'm speaking the Gospel,
the fruit i am trying to produce is unfruitfull to the audience

15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
​

can't be more plain
pray with the Spirit AND understanding
if you are there to edify the church, then your words must be understood by those listening

16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
​

we have to understand the words to have the desired response to them

17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.
​

you speaking greek to a culturally diverse audience, you might give thanks to God well,
but the audience would'nt know it

18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
​

Paul spoke many languages that we know of
He was a Roman citizen, Hebrew, tribe of Ben, house of Judah
God chose him to travel around for the gentiles
he was a linguist
and his speaking multiple tongues/languages was a reason why he was chosen

19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
​

even though he speaks many different languages
speaking 1000's of words in greek to an english audience, would accomplish nothing
he'd rather speak 5 words that they'd understand than 1000 that they don't
it is paramount that the audience understand his (our) words so they can come to God.

 

[zeke37]

20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.
21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
​

hebrew greek latin english french german, etc YOU AND I

22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
​

tongues, here, means interpreted tongues
the Good News spreading from one langauge into another that edifies them that believe not (yet)
when one understands those words, it's a sign to God for them

it is NOT a sign for those that ALREADY believe, because they don't need the Word translated for them.
they already know.

23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
​

the ie. is that there are many different tongues/languages represented under one roof
if there was no order, and people just started to preach in what ever tongue was their own
it would do the others who did not understand their tongue no good,
and even confuse those who were new/unlearned/searching
they'll think you're nuts
imagine ten people, speaking ten different languages, all preaching at the exact same time,
over each other...causing confusion obviously.

Paul is trying to show them that they need order
like when going from one language to another

24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

​

if what is preached/sung/prayed is understood, then that's prophesy, and the unlearned can learn.
everyone can agree, meaning multiple witnesses to the truth of what is said
one must understand the invitation to open themselves to God fully

26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
​

this verse assumes that the speaker and audience speak different languages, and only have one church
and they wish to (are commissioned to) share what they have learned/read
and spread the gospel to the ends of the earth

27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
​

it's ok to speak greek to them,
but make sure your greek words are interpreted by an interpreter that speaks their language
so the crowd can understand

but not too many interpreters at one time tho
greek, to english, to french
ok, but stop there, otherwise it would become too confusing

one preacher preaching,
maybe two or three different speaking interpreters interpreting,
that understand the preachers words,
each in turn interpreting to the multi-lingual congregation
so all can come to God

28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
​

if no one there speaks chineese, not even any interpreters
then don't confuse the congregation by giving your testimony in chineese
it would mean nothing to them, and sound like babble

29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
​

as above
two or three at a time
so as not to confuse the audience...
they have to judge if what you say is right or wrong

since this is speaking about anyone wanting to preach
sharing the Good News with others, be they believers or not,
then that means if they judge what you say to be true, then they can come to God

30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
​

if you understand one of the translated languages, or the original, but your brethren beside you does not
don't explain it to him right there and then...as you might miss the message and disrupt others listening around you

wait until your alone later, to explain it to your neighbour,
so you continue to hear the entire message and you won't disrupt anyone else there

32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
​

God does not author confusion
charismatic tongues bring confusion and this chapter is just not about that at all.

34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
​

don't explain things in the middle of the service as that would disrupt things.
plus i think there was another contending "religion" female based,
that Paul was contending with at Corrinth.

37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
​

the Word of God is not for anyone alone
and certainly not like it is presented with regards to charismatic tongues

39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
​

travelling around and spreading the Word is not limited to Hebrew, Greek, or Latin, but rather it is for all tongues

it's ok to spread His message to others in a foreign tongue
as long as your words are translated for them, into their tongue
now, that may seem a tad obvious today, but that is what the entire chapter is about back then.
it is not about charismatic tongue, and making it such makes void the word of God that the chapter contains about the great commission

 

[zeke37]

who here at this forum "thinks" charismatic tongue are biblical, but doesn't use them?
anyone?

 

[JohnRabbit]

good job zeke!

very edifying to me.

 

[NorrinRadd]

Zeke, with all due respect, it's abundantly clear that fruitful interaction with you is impossible. Your viewpoint is simply too far divergent from those of us who in the P/C ranks. We just plainly see things differently at a very basic level. It's like someone trying to explain how red something is to someone who sees it as green. Even your insistence that you are not a "cessationist" is from our point of view, "babbling," because you are using your own definition of that very word. For most of us, denial of the P/C gift of tongues IS a defining feature of cessationism.

 

[kspchemist]

Zeke, with all due respect, it's abundantly clear that fruitful interaction with you is impossible. Your viewpoint is simply too far divergent from those of us who in the P/C ranks. We just plainly see things differently at a very basic level. It's like someone trying to explain how red something is to someone who sees it as green. Even your insistence that you are not a "cessationist" is from our point of view, "babbling," because you are using your own definition of that very word. For most of us, denial of the P/C gift of tongues IS a defining feature of cessationism.

I have read this and would have to agree with some of what Zeke says. We are to have an interpretation when a public tongues message is given. Then as Paul says, "there should only be 2 or 3". That part I will agree with Zeke. Which shouldn't be too far from P/C teaching unless they neglect to teach that part.

I think Zeke misses it when saying there is no prayer language. Paul states that he prays in tongues more that you all! So there is a prayer language that is uttered through the Spirit. Also, I have heard a first account witness of the Acts 2 tongues Zeke was talking about. It is still there, but we may not always notice it.

 

[squint]

who here at this forum "thinks" charismatic tongue are biblical, but doesn't use them?
anyone?

If the practices were not so thoroughly abused it would probably be easier to accept. Unfortunately the charismatic churches in general are filled with

A. blatant manipulators of people

B. people who blindly believe them

It's probably a good thing the Spirit isn't speaking too much nowdays because I don't think any of us would care much to hear the facts anyway.

As long as it's a 'rosy scenario' for me, me, me it is bought hook, line and sinker, hand over fist.

s

 

[JohnRabbit]

I have read this and would have to agree with some of what Zeke says. We are to have an interpretation when a public tongues message is given. Then as Paul says, "there should only be 2 or 3". That part I will agree with Zeke. Which shouldn't be too far from P/C teaching unless they neglect to teach that part.

I think Zeke misses it when saying there is no prayer language. Paul states that he prays in tongues more that you all! So there is a prayer language that is uttered through the Spirit. Also, I have heard a first account witness of the Acts 2 tongues Zeke was talking about. It is still there, but we may not always notice it.

what i highlighted in your quote is not what paul said!

Zeke quoted the verse:

18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

so the argument you have after the "highlighted" is without merit.

 

[Albion]

Zeke, the only reason I'm a cessationist is because...tongues ceased.

Sure, there was a reintroduction of the practice in some churches a few centuries back, but that doesn't mean that they hadn't ceased before then. There were isolated reports of tongues-speaking from here or there during the Middle Ages, but as a feature of the Christian religion or of the Christian experience...no. The rebuttal to that which so many P/C attempt--"Oh yes there were tongues then; they just were done in secret and totally escaped the notice of records, anthropologists, historians, etc." only makes that side of the debate look foolish.

 

[sunlover1]

Zeke, with all due respect, it's abundantly clear that fruitful interaction with you is impossible. Your viewpoint is simply too far divergent from those of us who in the P/C ranks. We just plainly see things differently at a very basic level. It's like someone trying to explain how red something is to someone who sees it as green. Even your insistence that you are not a "cessationist" is from our point of view, "babbling," because you are using your own definition of that very word. For most of us, denial of the P/C gift of tongues IS a defining feature of cessationism.

And again, can anyone here answer that question NorrinRadd asked in another thread:
WHY, if tongues is simply a foreign language, did Paul have to WARN them not to "forbid tongues"
Anyone?

If the practices were not so thoroughly abused it would probably be easier to accept.

Paul didn't have that problem.

It's probably a good thing the Spirit isn't speaking too much nowdays

God is indeed still speaking to His church.

because I don't think any of us would care much to hear the facts anyway.

The 'facts" are wonderful, you can find them in Scripture.
The Hero showed up and saved the princess bride.

 

[squint]

Paul didn't have that problem.

If Paul saw what goes on in charismatic churches today he'd either puke or laugh his head off.

Probably both.

Their doctrines across the board are so filled with lies and nonsense I lost track of trying to keep up with it.

Oh, but hollar shunamaagunnama in the name of God and people will come a runnin to join the show.

s

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Here is something that many may not consider as speaking with new tongues as Jesus described.

Some speak as man (carnal understanding)
Some speak as angels (spiritual understanding)

Both of these languages can be spoken in, lets say english; but not all who speak english can perceive what is being spoken spiritually. (in a mystery)

For instance the carnally minded man cannot receive the spiritual words of God, meaning he does not understand what is being said by the Spirit. (only those who have ears to hear with can hear what the Spirit is saying)

That is also why the Lord said hearing they will not hear. They heard the message in their own language, but they could not perceive it because they were yet carnal, and they only spoke as carnally minded men.

That is why Paul said he spoke both with the tongues of man,(fleshy minded) and also the tongues of angels (spiritually minded.)

Here is proof of this....

1 Corinthians 3:1
And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

They being yet carnally minded, could not receive those deep spiritual things (the mysteries in Gods Word) which can only be understood by those with the mind of the Spirit. (which Spirit would also give them ears to hear with)

 

[sunlover1]

If Paul saw what goes on in charismatic churches today he'd either puke or laugh his head off.

Probably both.

Their doctrines across the board are so filled with lies and nonsense I lost track of trying to keep up with it.

Oh, but hollar shunamaagunnama in the name of God and people will come a runnin to join the show.

s

Predictable

 

[squint]

Predictable

factual

 

[sunlover1]

factual

If you've been to every church on earth then you are qualified to say
such a thing. Otherwise, no.

 

[sunlover1]

Here is something that many may not consider as speaking with new tongues as Jesus described.

Some speak as man (carnal understanding)
Some speak as angels (spiritual understanding)

Both of these languages can be spoken in, lets say english; but not all who speak english can perceive what is being spoken spiritually. (in a mystery)

For instance the carnally minded man cannot receive the spiritual words of God, meaning he does not understand what is being said by the Spirit. (only those who have ears to hear with can hear what the Spirit is saying)

That is also why the Lord said hearing they will not hear. They heard the message in their own language, but they could not perceive it because they were yet carnal, and they only spoke as carnally minded men.

That is why Paul said he spoke both with the tongues of man,(fleshy minded) and also the tongues of angels (spiritually minded.)

Here is proof of this....

1 Corinthians 3:1
And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

They being yet carnally minded, could not receive those deep spiritual things (the mysteries in Gods Word) which can only be understood by those with the mind of the Spirit. (which Spirit would also give them ears to hear with)

That's nice ISIT, God bless you

 

[squint]

If you've been to every church on earth then you are qualified to say
such a thing. Otherwise, no.

They are nutcake pits for the most part. Don't have to see them all to see that much.

 

[kspchemist]

what i highlighted in your quote is not what paul said!

Zeke quoted the verse:

18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

so the argument you have after the "highlighted" is without merit.

Ok so you negate one sentence Whoopie! You neglect the first hand account I mention. What about that. Anyway is it hard to quote scripture on the iPhone please excuse the memory failure

 

[ImaginaryDay]

If Paul saw what goes on in charismatic churches today he'd either puke or laugh his head off.

Probably both.

Their doctrines across the board are so filled with lies and nonsense I lost track of trying to keep up with it.

Oh, but hollar shunamaagunnama in the name of God and people will come a runnin to join the show.

s

I think that if Paul saw what goes on today that the 'Pentecostals' would hear a Pentecostal sermon like they never heard before. I wonder who would dare to speak in so-called 'tongues' when he was done...