"Almost" all the world's religions agree on one detail about "the end"

[BobRyan]

No doubt people have a lot of points where they differ on the millennium topic - but on this thread I am looking for a common theme.

I have often posted that Christianity Today pointed out in Feb 2015 - that the Seventh-day Adventist church had grown from the mid 1800's to then being the 5th largest denomination in the world as of 2014-2015. It "appears to me" that the SDA denomination is the one "hold out' when it comes to an almost unanimous POV held by both Christian and non-Christian religions of the world.

First Question:
All religions appear to teach that mankind will continue on Earth until it finally experiences a global age of peace. And my first question on this thread is - do you agree with that high-level common-ground statement?


For most religions this is a point in the future when some non-Earth being comes to Earth (a populated Earth with people living on it) and sets up a kingdom, an age of peace (after some initial "adjustments made" depending on the religion that you ask). Some call it "The Millennial kingdom on Earth" with Christ as King, the second coming, some call it an "Age of peace", ... many different names for it.

"All the world" (both Christian and non-Christian) appears to come into line on that detail.

Even though Rev 13, and 2Thess2 and Matt 24 point out that in fact "all the world" is deceived at the end of time. Almost everyone gets it wrong according to the Bible.

Adventist believe that the rapture takes place just before the literal millennium of 1000 years and then Christ's sets up His kingdom on Earth as in Rev 20 - 1000 years after the rapture and destruction of all lost people on Earth - associated with the "lake of fire event" in Rev 20 and the second resurrection that happens at that time.

====================

SECOND Question is here - #4

 

[BobRyan]

Christians have the concept of the "rapture" and the "second coming" --- and as noted above, for some of us those are two different events - with the rapture taking place just before the literal millennium of 1000 years and then Christ's setting up His kingdom on Earth as in Rev 20 - 1000 years after the rapture and destruction of all lost people on Earth.

But for most Christians Christ sets up His kingdom on Earth during the 1000 years (or the 1000 years is symbolic and He sets up His kingdom on Earth as soon as things get all sorted out on Earth).

=========================

Mormon's say this

“A thousand years of peace, love, and joy will begin on the earth at the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. This thousand-year period is called the Millennium. The scriptures and the prophets help us understand what it will be like to live on the earth during the Millennium.”

=============

ISLAM teaches this -

"According to Islamic tradition, Jesus' descent will be in the midst of wars fought by the Mahdi (lit. "the rightly guided one"), known in Islamic eschatology as the redeemer of Islam, against the al-Masih ad-Dajjal (literally "the false messiah", synonymous with the Antichrist) and his followers.[61] Jesus will descend at the point of a white arcade, east of Damascus, dressed in saffron robes — his head anointed. He will then join the Mahdi in his war against the Dajjal. Jesus, considered in Islam as a Muslim (one who submits to God) and one of God's messengers, will abide by the Islamic teachings. Eventually, Jesus will slay the Antichrist Dajjal, and then everyone from the People of the Book (ahl al-kitāb, referring to Jews and Christians) will believe in him. Thus, there will be one community, that of Islam. Sahih Muslim, 41:7023

After the death of the Mahdi, Jesus will assume leadership. This is a time associated in Islamic narrative with universal peace and justice."

================= Judaism


According to Jewish tradition, the Messianic Era will be one of global peace and harmony; an era free of strife and hardship, conducive to the furtherment of the knowledge of the Creator. The theme of the Messiah ushering in an era of global peace is encapsulated in two of the most famous scriptural passages from the Book of Isaiah:

They shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks; nation will not lift sword against nation and they will no longer study warfare.

— Isaiah 2:4


In his Mishneh Torah, Maimonides describes the Messianic Era:

"And at that time there will be no hunger or war, no jealousy or rivalry. For the good will be plentiful, and all delicacies available as dust.

The entire occupation of the world will be only to know God... the people Israel will be of great wisdom; they will perceive the esoteric truths and comprehend their Creator's wisdom as is the capacity of man. As it is written (Isaiah 11:9): "For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of God, as the waters cover the sea."

According to the Talmud, the Midrash, and the ancient Kabbalistic work, the Zohar, the Messiah must arrive before the year 6000 from the time of creation. In Orthodox Jewish belief, the Hebrew calendar dates to the time of creation, making this correspond to the year 2240 on the Gregorian calendar.


===================

 

[BobRyan]

Evangelicals have some version of the rapture followed by the second coming - and it is all pre-mill where as my view is that the rapture is pre-mill - and it takes place at Christ's appearing -- but the 2nd coming "to Earth" is post-mill in Rev 20 associated with the second coming.

I fully expect that the SDA view is not the common one - my real question for this thread is whether the one I am calling the commonly-accepted one (given a high enough level view of it rather than parsing each detail) is something everyone here agrees with.

 

[BobRyan]

SECOND Question:

Would you agree that excluding the view I hold to - it really does not matter what the details are in any of the other views commonly held today - because in all other options it is like going on a ride at Disney. While on the ride you may comment "ohhh I thought we would be going straight just then instead of making that hard-right-turn like we did" but the fact that it was not what you expected changes nothing.

IN that case You were simply "mistaken" about that detail - but either way it is going to be an age of peace for those not at war with God - and God will be right there on Earth to explain it to you.

================

I am not trying to argue for or against a particular view - just asking for general observation about the commonality for all.

 

[dqhall]

Evangelicals have some version of the rapture followed by the second coming - and it is all pre-mill where as my view is that the rapture is pre-mill - and it takes place at Christ's appearing -- but the 2nd coming "to Earth" is post-mill in Rev 20 associated with the second coming.

I fully expect that the SDA view is not the common one - my real question for this thread is whether the one I am calling the commonly-accepted one (given a high enough level view of it rather than parsing each detail) is something everyone here agrees with.

The SDA church is about 21 million people of a total 2.6 billion Christians. There are 80 - 100 million Non-denominational Christians.
List of Christian denominations by number of members - Wikipedia

2 Peter offers different point of view. It does not describe millennialist doctrine. Planet earth is temporary. A day of judgement is coming.

2 Peter 3:8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

 

[Albion]

I have often posted that Christianity Today pointed out in Feb 2015 - that the Seventh-day Adventist church had grown from the mid 1800's to then being the 5th largest denomination in the world as of 2014-2015.

I know you like to say this ^ and it is technically true, but it's only true to the extent that the SDA church is a single church, very much like the Roman Catholic Church in that respect.

Other branches of Christianity--Eastern Orthodox, Pentecostal, Baptist, etc. --are arranged into a number of jurisdictions and have their membership statistics counted separately for each nation.

Yet for the purposes of talking about which churches are the largest in the world, each of them might as well have all its followers totaled together, wherever they live and irrespective of whether they're United Methodist, Free Methodist, African Methodist Episcopal or some other Methodist church, for one example.

It "appears to me" that the SDA denomination is the one "hold out' when it comes to an almost unanimous POV held by both Christian and non-Christian religions of the world.

All religions appear to teach that mankind will continue on Earth until it finally experiences a global age of peace. And my question on this thread is - do you agree with that high-level common-ground statement?

Well, is that particularly interesting to anyone but a Seventh-day Adventist?

What I mean is that the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Mormons, Christian Science, Spiritualists, Swedenborgians, like the SDA, are known for their respective doctrinal uniqueness, but none of that amounts to more than a matter of curiosity to mainline, orthodox, Christianity.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Even though Rev 13, and 2Thess2 and Matt 24 point out that in fact "all the world" is deceived at the end of time.

Actually, NONE of those references even speak of "an end of time". They speak of an "END" of something, but not of time itself. An end of TIME is never spoken of in scripture. That is merely an assumption. Instead, Daniel 12:4 speaks of a "time of the END" - of Daniel's people, before their power was to be shattered in Daniel 12:7.

Neither do any of these 3 scripture texts given above speak of "all the world" (oikoumene - the whole habitable world) being deceived. What they DO describe is a time when those in "all the EARTH" (tes ges) would be deceived. This is the LAND (tes ges) of Israel, which in its "last state" in the first century was deceived by its own deceptive, two-horned, Pharisee / Sadducee False Prophet leadership.

Christ gave a more optimistic outlook for the culmination of fallen man's history on this planet at the last resurrection. He gave multiple examples, such as the mustard seed, the inexorable growth of leaven, Daniel's stone of Christ's kingdom that will eventually grow and "fill the earth" over time, and also the promise regarding Christ, that "of the increase of His government and of His peace there shall be no end." This is a continual increase promised for the effects of Christ's kingdom on this world's inhabitants.

 

[Hazelelponi]

What non-Christians either believe or disbelieve has no bearing on what is factually true or untrue. In other words, just because other belief sets believe something neither strengthens or weakens the truth as it was given us by Christ and the disciples and apostles...

In other words... who cares? It's completely irrelevant what others may believe. The only way it would be relevant would be if they all believed the exact same truth we were given. They don't, so it's not.

 

[Jeshu]

What i find so disturbing about all this literal stuff is that flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God. It is therefore easily understood that like Scripture teaches and Jesus Himself confirms, a spiritual kingdom, in which each believer in Christ is build by the Holy Spirit through the truths of Scripture.

1 Corinthians 15:50
"I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable."

Revelation 20:7-10 shows us that even while Jesus has His Spiritual Kingdom in full swing for a thousand years, the devil and his hordes will come back in full force, turn the whole world up against God's anointed, even surrounding the camp of God's people in the hundred of millions, before they are wiped out once and for all. How can that be? How can Jesus rule this earth for a thousand years, where all people do good to each other, everyone is taught by God Himself, no war, people becoming as old as trees, predators eating grass, and then have the whole world turn against God in favour of evil? Only spiritually such story makes perfect sense, but not otherwise.

i believe the bible is talking about two realities dwelling on in this world, in which we people have life here on this world, life in lies and life in His truth. Life in lies, although completely spiritual in and of itself, has overpowered life in the flesh.

i believe therefore that the Word of God clearly shows us the spiritual manifestation of the outcome of His loving truth working Himself through humanity from beginning to end. His Word does not lie. So when Jesus says that He is coming Soon, we should not think He tarries for two thousand years, such is the lie religious teachings have planted into peoples hearts, still now, after two thousand years of no Jesus, they look into the sky and expect to see Him to be saved and forget that Scriptures says. See I stand at your door and knock! That is NOW! Like Scripture says elsewhere today is the day to be saved, and again flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, surely that shows us enough?

So many believers are looking the wrong way and listen to the religious teachings of the truth, rather than apply the words of God to the what is living in their hearts.

i know the book of Revelation basically accumulates bad life in the spirituality of the lie, in the shapes of the two beasts, the false prophet, the great prosecute, the numbered, the frogs, the dragon and all the slain of chapter 19. For all these things have happened in my heart, many times over. The truth, as Ezekiel show Him, is wheels within wheels, big wheels, and small wheels. Such is life in His Word, so awesome to behold.

So i don't believe this word is just telling us about the future. Jesus doesn't lie. When He says that He is coming soon , then He means what He says. This Word is not just about the future of this world brothers and sisters, rather this word about what lives within you spiritually. The Word is meant to be read by you to you, For The Word is for the spiritually discerning.

i reckon one of the biggest traps in my life was reading the bible outside of myself, this is what religion taught me to do, and have only ever caused massive division and spiritual genocide within.

Rather we have to look inside of ourselves to find the wicked in control over our life in sin, and find liberation of these forces through the New Life in His loving truth, which we receive from Jesus, when we willingly lay down our lives in sin, because the Word in Spirit revealed those evildoers inside our psyche, and His loving truth cuts us to the heart. At such times the wicked die and the angels rejoice and Heaven sings and in our heart, as one more chosen one is added to the ever growing kingdom of Christ in our life in Him and with Him.

Zion Descending

At first I heard Dad say,
"Son let us make tracks,
its near getting dark now,
the chosen are all asleep,
now would be best,
as darkness reigns its peak,
for arrogance has him blinded,
to what is really going on."


I saw the sunlight darkened,
the moon turn to blood,
and the stars falling from Heaven.
I felt everything shaking in its boots.
I heard about wars and rumours of wars.
I experienced famine and drought,
grand scale living in wantonness,
rulers making a living out of sin,
Satan's forces installed everywhere,
loveless forces ruling untruthfully.


I heard my inner world crying out in her dying pain,
"What is going on?
The Father is leaving us without the Son,
this can only evil mean."
I heard the angels blow the trumpets!
"Woe to the inhabitants of this soul!"

I heard the agonising cries,
coming from underneath the altar,
the dead in God's love, longingly,
awaiting newness of life!
"Yes, oh Lord, pour out their blood as they did ours!"

I heard the thunders rolling throughout my being,
"Let evil brood fear The Truth of God almighty!
Let judgement begin in The House of God!"

I knew judgement had already began,
when I beheld those massive hails stones,
tumbling down on the heads of the wicked.
I watched my enemies flee in terror!
Scorpion stings burning wrong,
horse hooves kicking up dirt,
truthfulness uncovering shame,
honesty baring nakedness,
the dung of the earth warring,
lies sores causing agony,
pestilence threatening,
as grasshoppers devoured,
my enemies food and good life!

It was fascinating to see,
how weak those are...,
.....so strong in lies!

Yes, honest!
Loving truth is like that!
The freedom to be,
true to yourself,
both in good and bad,
in His love to be.

Oh the release of faith!
Heart rendering awe!
Shouts of glorious praise!
Jumping joy - pure ecstasy!
Glorying in God almighty,
my life's tormentors died,
perishing one after the other.

Seeing Jesus on His white horse,
a blazing sword coming out of His mouth,
His all conquering loving truth
my inner world of being to reap.
Casting dead what is so good to have gone,
raising alive that which I had lost,
bringing new life at each dawn,
His kingdom ruling my world of being,
His presence bringing rest and peace.

Time and again He comes past like this,
(terrorising the wicked agonising their mates demise,)
as all His wheels turn into place.
The Word alive in heavenly love.
Costly gifts descending from above.
beholding the temple of the most high,
the truth of His love Himself my Zion.

 

[BobRyan]

The SDA church is about 21 million people of a total 2.6 billion Christians. There are 80 - 100 million Non-denominational Christians.

True - so that would make it difficult to claim that they belong to "the same organized denomination" if they are "non-denominational". If that is your point I can see how that would be.

 

[BobRyan]

What i find so disturbing about all this literal stuff is that flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God. It is therefore easily understood that like Scripture teaches and Jesus Himself confirms, a spiritual kingdom, in which each believer in Christ is build by the Holy Spirit through the truths of Scripture.

This flawed decaying flesh does not inherit heaven as 2 Cor 5:1-3 points out - it is the decaying tent - but we have a physical body (tent) that is of heaven that will not decay according to that same chapter.

In Revelation 19 Jesus is literal - the wicked being killed are literal - the event is literally true. When people die in Rev 19 and their corpse remains - birds literally feed on the remains.

In Both NT and OT Jesus' physical features are described - literally true. Jesus meets with the disciples in Luke 24 - in John 21 Jesus literally eats literal fish to literally prove He is literally present in resurrected form. In 1 John 3 - John literally says the resurrected saints will literally be in the same form as Jesus.

But my question was not so much for people to object to some view they don't like but rather to indicate if they agree with this general statement -

"All religions appear to teach that mankind will continue on Earth until it finally experiences a global age of peace. And my question on this thread is - do you agree with that high-level common-ground statement?"

 

[BobRyan]

What non-Christians either believe or disbelieve has no bearing on what is factually true or untrue.

Clearly they "can be mistaken" - and I don't argue for their accuracy in this thread. My question is this "All religions appear to teach that mankind will continue on Earth until it finally experiences a global age of peace. And my question on this thread is - do you agree with that high-level common-ground statement?"

Are you able to answer the question in your own case

In other words, just because other belief sets believe something neither strengthens or weakens the truth as it was given us by Christ and the disciples and apostles...[/quoe]

As noted in the OP "the Truth" of scripture tells us that all the world "gets it wrong" in the end - and in Matt 7 we see even Christian "get it wrong" when they say to Christ "Lord Lord how can we possibly be counted as lost when we did all these miracles IN YOUR name?"

"All the world" has to include both groups - by definition.

In other words... who cares? .

The purpose of this thread is not to force people post that do not care about the topic -- rather it is to ask people to comment on the world-wide agreement I find for this and respond to the OP question "All religions appear to teach that mankind will continue on Earth until it finally experiences a global age of peace. And my question on this thread is - do you agree with that high-level common-ground statement?"

 

[BobRyan]

Actually, NONE of those references even speak of "an end of time". They speak of an "END" of something, but not of time itself.

Ok .. fine.. but the OP question is what we are interested in - can you answer this?

"All religions appear to teach that mankind will continue on Earth until it finally experiences a global age of peace. And my question on this thread is - do you agree with that high-level common-ground statement?"

Daniel's stone of Christ's kingdom that will eventually grow and "fill the earth" over time, and also the promise regarding Christ, that "of the increase of His government and of His peace there shall be no end." This is a continual increase promised for the effects of Christ's kingdom on this world's inhabitants.

Though you don't outright say "yes I also agree with that" you do appear to agree -- true?

 

[BobRyan]

I know you like to say this ^ and it is technically true, but it's only true to the extent that the SDA church is a single church, very much like the Roman Catholic Church in that respect.

True. My question for this thread is this --

================================== from OP

"All religions appear to teach that mankind will continue on Earth until it finally experiences a global age of peace. And my first question on this thread is - do you agree with that high-level common-ground statement?"

For most religions this is a point in the future when some non-Earth being comes to Earth (a populated Earth with people living on it) and sets up a kingdom, an age of peace (after some initial "adjustments made" depending on the religion that you ask). Some call it "The Millennial kingdom on Earth" with Christ as King, the second coming, some call it an "Age of peace", ... many different names for it.

"All the world" (both Christian and non-Christian) appears to come into line on that detail.

=================

Second question - (from post #4)

Would you agree that excluding the view I hold to - it really does not matter what the details are in any of the other views commonly held today - because in all other options it is like going on a ride at Disney. While on the ride you may comment "ohhh I thought we would be going straight just then instead of making that hard-right-turn like we did" but the fact that it was not what you expected changes nothing.

IN that case You were simply "mistaken" about that detail - but either way it is going to be an age of peace for those not at war with God - and God will be right there on Earth to explain it to you.

 

[3 Resurrections]

But my question was not so much for people to object to some view they don't like but rather to indicate if they agree with this general statement -

"All religions appear to teach that mankind will continue on Earth until it finally experiences a global age of peace. And my question on this thread is - do you agree with that high-level common-ground statement?"

On the one hand it is true that the unsaved world is not where we look for confirmation of Christian beliefs. Yet this almost universal belief that the world will eventually be purged of evil seems to come from an instinctive knowledge that humanity was meant for better things than the present conditions in which we live. Some theologians call this "the God hole" in humankind's conscience - a deep-down awareness that the purpose for mankind's existence is more than mere survival of the fittest.

This instinctive knowledge is confirmed by God's revelation of His purpose for mankind in scripture. "The Lord hath made all things FOR HIMSELF; yeah, even the wicked for the day of evil." As for His intentions for this planet's existence, it is said of God that "He created it NOT in vain; He formed it TO BE INHABITED." God intends this globe to be inhabited by humanity forever, and will, in the last resurrection and judgment, finally get rid of the presence of any and all remnants of human evil that have blighted His creation since the Fall.

It is NOT the millennium that will bring this about. The already-fulfilled Rev. 20 millennium (which ended in AD 33) only provided a preliminary type of the final stage of purification in our distant future, when the entire globe will be purged of the presence of human evil. That former, fulfilled millennium when Satan's deception of the nations was bound for a literal thousand years only proved that humanity was more than capable of coming up with deception on its own, without Satan's contributing influence. It is HUMAN evil that ultimately needs to be eradicated, and God will eventually accomplish that using various means. Either God changes a person into an adopted child by the power of His Spirit, and gives them incorruptible immortality in the resurrection, or if they have persevered in their rebellion, the consuming fire of His utter holiness will annihilate them in the final judgment - body, soul, and spirit. End result - absolute purity of the world's inhabitants, so that God can dwell among them forever.

 

[Bob Crowley]

All religions appear to teach that mankind will continue on Earth until it finally experiences a global age of peace. And my first question on this thread is - do you agree with that high-level common-ground statement?

Christianity in general does not teach that "mankind will continue on Earth until it finally experiences a global age of peace."

I don't have much time for the Rapture, but I fully accept there will be a cataclysmic Second Coming, which will also presage the end of this universe.

This universe adds up to nothing anyway, as it is a "sum zero energy universe."

Zero-energy universe - Wikipedia.

As my old pastor, "I don't think God would give the human race a really solid universe". He'll keep the "really solid universe" for those who have shown they are prepared to obey Him.

So this one will be swept away.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states as follows -

V. THE LAST JUDGMENT

1038 The resurrection of all the dead, "of both the just and the unjust,"623 will precede the Last Judgment. This will be "the hour when all who are in the tombs will hear [the Son of man's] voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment."624 Then Christ will come "in his glory, and all the angels with him. . . . Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. . . . And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."625

1039 In the presence of Christ, who is Truth itself, the truth of each man's relationship with God will be laid bare.626 The Last Judgment will reveal even to its furthest consequences the good each person has done or failed to do during his earthly life:

All that the wicked do is recorded, and they do not know. When "our God comes, he does not keep silence.". . . he will turn towards those at his left hand: . . . "I placed my poor little ones on earth for you. I as their head was seated in heaven at the right hand of my Father - but on earth my members were suffering, my members on earth were in need. If you gave anything to my members, what you gave would reach their Head. Would that you had known that my little ones were in need when I placed them on earth for you and appointed them your stewards to bring your good works into my treasury. But you have placed nothing in their hands; therefore you have found nothing in my presence."627
1040 The Last Judgment will come when Christ returns in glory. Only the Father knows the day and the hour; only he determines the moment of its coming. Then through his Son Jesus Christ he will pronounce the final word on all history. We shall know the ultimate meaning of the whole work of creation and of the entire economy of salvation and understand the marvelous ways by which his Providence led everything towards its final end. The Last Judgment will reveal that God's justice triumphs over all the injustices committed by his creatures and that God's love is stronger than death.628

1041 The message of the Last Judgment calls men to conversion while God is still giving them "the acceptable time, . . . the day of salvation."629 It inspires a holy fear of God and commits them to the justice of the Kingdom of God. It proclaims the "blessed hope" of the Lord's return, when he will come "to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at in all who have believed."630

There won't be two Second Comings. There will only be one, and no man knows the day or the hour.

 

[Jeshu]

This flawed decaying flesh does not inherit heaven as 2 Cor 5:1-3 points out - it is the decaying tent - but we have a physical body (tent) that is of heaven that will not decay according to that same chapter.

No that is not true brother, you have that completely wrong. Heaven is a spiritual place, and His Word are spiritual words to the spiritual man, building us a new creation spiritually, that is what Scripture teaches about all that.
1 Corinthians 2:12-13
What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words

See here also
1 Corinthians 15:35-50
So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.


I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

n Revelation 19 Jesus is literal - the wicked being killed are literal - the event is literally true. When people die in Rev 19 and their corpse remains - birds literally feed on the remains.

No brother the book of Revelation is not literal, it is a spiritual book, and it talks about the battle of good versa bad within believers inner world of Being.

Surely you don't expect a man riding on horse through the sky with a flaming sword coming out of His mouth killing all the wicked on earth. In the book of Revelation we meet beasts, locusts, horses, scorpions, frogs, a dragon with a prostitute riding its back, a man flying through the sky killing evildoers, a complete city of gold coming out of the sky down upon the earth.

You really expect to see all of these descriptions in physical form? You are waiting for God's kingdom like that? Oh my dear brother are you on the wrong track thinking like that. i have just shown you that God's kingdom is spiritual, and for the spiritual, not the mortal.

If the book of Revelation was a literal book, then Jesus is a big liar, not coming for two thousand years, when He says He will be soon, And if in the end he finally decides to be true to His word we are going to see some really strange creatures roaming around on this world.

No none of these things i have seen in physical form in my battle with the wicked brother.

Yet all of these creatures mentioned in the book of Revelation, and all its events written therein, i find back inside my inner world of being, including Jesus coming soon, instead of having to wait for Him without Him showing up ever.

So no Revelation is a spiritual book, relevant for every age, it will always be the true word of God for those who seek after Him in Spirit. For only when we have life in His Spirit do we become eternal, not otherwise.

"All religions appear to teach that mankind will continue on Earth until it finally experiences a global age of peace. And my question on this thread is - do you agree with that high-level common-ground statement?"

1 Peter 2:3 Teaches us the truth of what fate this world in flesh awaits.
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.


So in keeping with what The word of God teaches us i do not believe this world, as a whole, will experience God's Kingdom here on earth.

This is the error the disciples at first believed as well, but Jesus taught them to understand different, especially when they saw the Spirit of Jesus at work in their hearts. Then they understood and shared with us the truth of God's Gospel in Jesus Christ.

i reckon we all need to be saved from this sinful world, spiritually taken away! When we are, then we will begin to serve God rightly in the flesh, and much of the curse of sin will be lifted. But as we all know from the believers who went before us, death still comes and kills us in the flesh, only God's Kingdom Alive in their Hearts saved those brothers and sisters from that final passing over from the physical into the spiritual.

So no i don't believe in the Kingdom of God on this world in physical shape for everyone. Rather like Peter points out - everything will be destroyed - when God collapses this sinful universe and turns it into the everlasting lake of fire.

It is the Spiritual Kingdom that you want brother, where instead of looking outside of yourself to find that His Word is true, you have to turn your attention inward, and watch what The Spirit of Christ does in your heart through the truth of His word. The Living Word is an utter marvel to behold. So glad i got to know Him. He does as He says, and He always comes soon, just like He says. i will love Him forever from saving me from this body of death.

Peace.

Zion Descending

At first I heard Dad say,
"Son let us make tracks,
its near getting dark now,
the chosen are all asleep,
now would be best,
as darkness reigns its peak,
for arrogance has him blinded,
to what is really going on."


I saw the sunlight darkened,
the moon turn to blood,
and the stars falling from Heaven.
I felt everything shaking in its boots.
I heard about wars and rumours of wars.
I experienced famine and drought,
grand scale living in wantonness,
rulers making a living out of sin,
Satan's forces installed everywhere,
loveless forces ruling untruthfully.


I heard my inner world crying out in her dying pain,
"What is going on?
The Father is leaving us without the Son,
this can only evil mean."
I heard the angels blow the trumpets!
"Woe to the inhabitants of this soul!"

I heard the agonising cries,
coming from underneath the altar,
the dead in God's love, longingly,
awaiting newness of life!
"Yes, oh Lord, pour out their blood as they did ours!"

I heard the thunders rolling throughout my being,
"Let evil brood fear The Truth of God almighty!
Let judgement begin in The House of God!"

I knew judgement had already began,
when I beheld those massive hails stones,
tumbling down on the heads of the wicked.
I watched my enemies flee in terror!
Scorpion stings burning wrong,
horse hooves kicking up dirt,
truthfulness uncovering shame,
honesty baring nakedness,
the dung of the earth warring,
lies sores causing agony,
pestilence threatening,
as grasshoppers devoured,
my enemies food and good life!

It was fascinating to see,
how weak those are...,
.....so strong in lies!

Yes, honest!
Loving truth is like that!
The freedom to be,
true to yourself,
both in good and bad,
in His love to be.

Oh the release of faith!
Heart rendering awe!
Shouts of glorious praise!
Jumping joy - pure ecstasy!
Glorying in God almighty,
my life's tormentors died,
perishing one after the other.

Seeing Jesus on His white horse,
a blazing sword coming out of His mouth,
His all conquering loving truth
my inner world of being to reap.
Casting dead what is so good to have gone,
raising alive that which I had lost,
bringing new life at each dawn,
His kingdom ruling my world of being,
His presence bringing rest and peace.

Time and again He comes past like this,
(terrorising the wicked agonising their mates demise,)
as all His wheels turn into place.
The Word alive in heavenly love.
Costly gifts descending from above.
beholding the temple of the most high,
the truth of His love Himself my Zion.

Peace.

 

[BobRyan]

Christianity in general does not teach that "mankind will continue on Earth until it finally experiences a global age of peace."

I don't have much time for the Rapture, but I fully accept there will be a cataclysmic Second Coming, which will also presage the end of this universe.

This universe adds up to nothing anyway, as it is a "sum zero energy universe."

Zero-energy universe - Wikipedia.

As my old pastor, "I don't think God would give the human race a really solid universe". He'll keep the "really solid universe" for those who have shown they are prepared to obey Him.

So this one will be swept away.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states as follows -



There won't be two Second Comings. There will only be one, and no man knows the day or the hour.

It appears you do agree with the OP to a degree.. let me know if this is right.

First Question:
All religions appear to teach that mankind will continue on Earth until it finally experiences a global age of peace (after some adjustments). And my first question on this thread is - do you agree with that high-level common-ground statement?"

So then you appear to have everyone on Earth doing "whatever" then God shows up where He then wipes out the entire universe (but does not kill the saints) -- and forever-peace for the saints is all that remains.

=========================

from: The Second Coming.

The Second Coming

• FR. KENNETH BAKER, S.J.

After professing the Resurrection and Ascension of Jesus at the right hand of the Father, the Nicene Creed next affirms: He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.

"Though not stressed much today, the idea of the Second Coming of Jesus occurs frequently in the New Testament. It is also called the "Day of the Lord" and the "Parousia", which means the "presence" or "arrival" of someone.

"By the expression "the Second Coming", we are referring to the Christian belief in the words of Jesus that he will come again in glory to judge all men. The Parousia will signal the end of human history as we know it. When this will take place no one knows but the Father (Acts 1:11),

"When Jesus comes again in glory, human history will be terminated. All will be transformed, both the living and the dead (see 1 Cor 15:51-56). Thus everything now is provisional. There was a current of thought among early Christians, reflected strongly in St. Paul's two letters to the Thessalonians, that the glorified Lord would come soon. This is to be understood as a hope and an expectation that the Lord would soon come and establish his definitive kingdom by destroying all of the powers of sin and evil.

============ Catholic Catechism


672 Before his Ascension Christ affirmed that the hour had not yet come for the glorious establishment of the messianic kingdom awaited by Israel 562 which, according to the prophets, was to bring all men the definitive order of justice, love and peace.563 According to the Lord, the present time is the time of the Spirit and of witness, but also a time still marked by "distress" and the trial of evil which does not spare the Church564 and ushers in the struggles of the last days. It is a time of waiting and watching.565


681 On Judgment Day at the end of the world, Christ will come in glory to achieve the definitive triumph of good over evil which, like the wheat and the tares, have grown up together in the course of history.

682 When he comes at the end of time to judge the living and the dead, the glorious Christ will reveal the secret disposition of hearts and will render to each man according to his works, and according to his acceptance or refusal of grace.

1040 The Last Judgment will come when Christ returns in glory. Only the Father knows the day and the hour; only he determines the moment of its coming. Then through his Son Jesus Christ he will pronounce the final word on all history. We shall know the ultimate meaning of the whole work of creation and of the entire economy of salvation and understand the marvelous ways by which his Providence led everything towards its final end. The Last Judgment will reveal that God's justice triumphs over all the injustices committed by his creatures and that God's love is stronger than death.​

 

[BobRyan]

No that is not true brother, you have that completely wrong. Heaven is a spiritual place,

your response to my reference to 2 Cor 5:1-3 appears to be - to not quote it.

2 Cor 5

For we know that if our earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made by hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For indeed, in this tent we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven, 3 since in fact after putting it on, we will not be found naked. 4 For indeed, we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave us the Spirit as a pledge.​

Rev 22 - Heaven on Earth described - after the 1000 years. With a lot of references to its physicality.

And he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, 2 in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him; 4 they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads. 5 And there will no longer be any night;​

 

[Bob Crowley]

It appears you do agree with the OP to a degree.. let me know if this is right.

......

So then you appear to have everyone on Earth doing "whatever" then God shows up where He then wipes out the entire universe (but does not condemn the saints) -- and forever-peace for the saints is all that remains.

Pretty much, except that I also believe in Heaven, Purgatory and Hell, as a Catholic. Protestants generally think only of Heaven and Hell.

Anyone in Purgatory gets to Heaven eventually, although in some cases it might take a long time.

Both of the quotes you inserted in your post were Catholic - one from a Jesuit, and the other from the Catholic Catechism, so I've got no quibbles there.

When my old pastor died way back in 1992 (I often refer to him in my posts), my wife and I visited one of his son's homes about a month later. There was a small photograph of the pastor on the wall near a door frame. It was just a head shot. As I stood there reflecting on things, I had this strange sense of a torrid sweatiness on his part.

I was still Protestant then, and I found it hard to pin down. But I think I was being given an insight into the fact he was in Purgatory. Even a good and holy man like him apparently had a fault or two that needed to be cleaned up before he got the final ticket through the Pearly Gates.

I don't think he would have been there long. That was only about a month after he died, and in his case it was like someone in a sweat. although a very uncomfortable sweat.

We had a fairly close relationship. The night he died, this real sense of peace descended on me for about 30 minutes starting at around 3am, which is when he died.