All freedoms are at stake, says florist who lost religious liberty case

[Michie]

Baronelle Stutzman, the owner of Arlene's Flowers, said the government 'trying to compel
me to design something that goes totally against my personal conscience and they violated my right to free speech and expression'

Continued below.
All Freedoms Are at Stake, Says Florist Who Lost Religious Liberty Case

 

[Fantine]

I agree, all freedoms ARE at stake--and there are so many people suffering far greater problems that you must forgive me for not making Arlene's Flowers a top priority.

 

[timewerx]

The big flaw of our system is its "all or nothing" reasoning.

It treats all religions the same even if one in particular is causing most trouble will impose the same penalty on all other religions.

If religious extremism of Islam gets worse and all religions get banned (inc Christianity because of it), I wouldn't be surprised.

 

[USincognito]

If religious extremism of Islam gets worse and all religions get banned (inc Christianity because of it), I wouldn't be surprised.

That's not going to happen.

 

[Sword of the Lord]

The big flaw of our system is its "all or nothing" reasoning.

It treats all religions the same even if one in particular is causing most trouble will impose the same penalty on all other religions.

If religious extremism of Islam gets worse and all religions get banned (inc Christianity because of it), I wouldn't be surprised.

Islam is already violent enough. They would wage unholy Jihad unlike anything the world has seen in centuries. Christians wouldn't stand for it. The country would be at war. This will never happen.

 

[Sword of the Lord]

I agree, all freedoms ARE at stake--and there are so many people suffering far greater problems that you must forgive me for not making Arlene's Flowers a top priority.

The baker seemed to get your attention despite far greater problems.

 

[Everybodyknows]

Baronelle Stutzman, the owner of Arlene's Flowers, said the government 'trying to compel
me to design something that goes totally against my personal conscience and they violated my right to free speech and expression'

Continued below.
All Freedoms Are at Stake, Says Florist Who Lost Religious Liberty Case

While I sympathize with the lady, this situation does raise some interesting ethical questions. Where do we as a society draw the line with what people can claim exemption from on the basis of religious belief. For example, would we be ok with a Muslim owned business refusing service to Jewish customers or vice versa? Would we accept a Klan member business' right to refuse to serve black people? If we say no then we are forcing people to act against their conscience and beliefs. There is a fine line between one law for all and having some flexibility to tolerate people's religiously based ethical values.

 

[Michie]

While I sympathize with the lady, this situation does raise some interesting ethical questions. Where do we as a society draw the line with what people can claim exemption from on the basis of religious belief. For example, would we be ok with a Muslim owned business refusing service to Jewish customers or vice versa? Would we accept a Klan member business' right to refuse to serve black people? If we say no then we are forcing people to act against their conscience and beliefs. There is a fine line between one law for all and having some flexibility to tolerate people's religiously based ethical values.

Did you notice all the designers refusing to design a dress for Melania Trump? Barely a peep. What's the difference? Except the designers did not cite religion.

 

[Fantine]

When I see others struggling with challenges far greater than mine, it gives me a sense of perspective about my own problems.

It also has taught me to be grateful for all the blessings I've enjoyed in life--even when times are hard.

And so if I were in her situation, I would be grateful that I had a working business and artistic skills. I would be grateful that I wasn't facing deportation, or heading in a lifeboat for European countries who might turn me away. I see lots of reasons for gratitude.

I had a Catholic obstetrician with 8 children in NY. He partnered with two Jewish obstetricians. If you were his patient and wanted birth control, his partners wrote the prescription and did the exam....

The florist could do that, too. She could subcontract that job out to another florist, or have one employee who didn't object.

I realize she feels disappointed and angry...but in perspective, it's not that big a deal.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Baronelle Stutzman, the owner of Arlene's Flowers, said the government 'trying to compel
me to design something that goes totally against my personal conscience and they violated my right to free speech and expression'

Continued below.
All Freedoms Are at Stake, Says Florist Who Lost Religious Liberty Case

Jesus told us exactly what to do when the law compels us in situations like this to do what we don't want to do.

Matt 5:39-47 But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also. Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two. Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you. You have heard that it was said, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. NASU

 

[Everybodyknows]

Did you notice all the designers refusing to design a dress for Melania Trump? Barely a peep. What's the difference? Except the designers did not cite religion.

No, haven't heard about that. So we won't tolerate discrimination based on race, religion or sexuality but it's ok to discriminate if we think your husband is a jerk! It's not discrimination if I don't like you personally

 

[Fantine]

No, haven't heard about that. So we won't tolerate discrimination based on race, religion or sexuality but it's ok to discriminate if we think your husband is a jerk! It's not discrimination if I don't like you personally

Or given President Trump's history of not paying people who do work for him.

Even my piano tuner told me that. He actually builds pianos (savant college student) and can get real ivory keys from Asia--at $10,000 a keyboard. I joked with him that he could build a piano for the president. And he said, "When Trump declared bankruptcy on his Atlantic City casino, a local piano store who had provided all the pianos for his casino-hotel went out of business because Trump never paid him a dime. No piano tuner would ever work for Trump."

Maybe designers who have had similar experiences have networked with one another.

 

[USincognito]

Did you notice all the designers refusing to design a dress for Melania Trump? Barely a peep. What's the difference? Except the designers did not cite religion.

Designers aren't businesses open to the public and subject to public accommodation laws.

 

[Everybodyknows]

Or given President Trump's history of not paying people who do work for him.

Even my piano tuner told me that. He actually builds pianos (savant college student) and can get real ivory keys from Asia--at $10,000 a keyboard. I joked with him that he could build a piano for the president. And he said, "When Trump declared bankruptcy on his Atlantic City casino, a local piano store who had provided all the pianos for his casino-hotel went out of business because Trump never paid him a dime. No piano tuner would ever work for Trump."

Maybe designers who have had similar experiences have networked with one another.

Is this more fake news? I can't believe that an honest born again Christian would do such things.

 

[Sword of the Lord]

Or given President Trump's history of not paying people who do work for him.

Even my piano tuner told me that. He actually builds pianos (savant college student) and can get real ivory keys from Asia--at $10,000 a keyboard. I joked with him that he could build a piano for the president. And he said, "When Trump declared bankruptcy on his Atlantic City casino, a local piano store who had provided all the pianos for his casino-hotel went out of business because Trump never paid him a dime. No piano tuner would ever work for Trump."

Maybe designers who have had similar experiences have networked with one another.

Riiiiight. You always "know someone."

 

[USincognito]

Riiiiight. You always "know someone."

I sold Trump $100K worth of pianos for his Atlantic City casino. Then he stiffed me.
>> But when I requested payment, the Trump corporation hemmed and hawed. Its executives avoided my calls and crafted excuses. After a couple of months, I got a letter telling me that the casino was short on funds. They would pay 70 percent of what they owed me. There was no negotiating. I didn't know what to do -- I couldn't afford to sue the Trump corporation, and I needed money to pay my piano suppliers. So I took the $70,000. <<

 

[Everybodyknows]

I sold Trump $100K worth of pianos for his Atlantic City casino. Then he stiffed me.
>> But when I requested payment, the Trump corporation hemmed and hawed. Its executives avoided my calls and crafted excuses. After a couple of months, I got a letter telling me that the casino was short on funds. They would pay 70 percent of what they owed me. There was no negotiating. I didn't know what to do -- I couldn't afford to sue the Trump corporation, and I needed money to pay my piano suppliers. So I took the $70,000. <<

Praise God he still got 70%. What's the guy complaining about? Many wish they could give Trump such a gift.

 

[Michie]

No they are not exempt from the law and are hired on a regular basis to anyone willing to pay.

Designers aren't businesses open to the public and subject to public accommodation laws.

 

[USincognito]

No they are not exempt from the law and are hired on a regular basis to anyone willing to pay.

Please cite which law makes the wife of the president a protected class and/or show me where/how your average citizen can walk into Vera Wang's design studio and purchase a dress from her.

 

[Michie]

Are you kidding? Designers have high end shops and merchandise. Check out New York, California, Florida. Designers do sell off the rack as well.

Please cite which law makes the wife of the president a protected class and/or show me where/how your average citizen can walk into Vera Wang's design studio and purchase a dress from her.