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Featured "All dogs go to..." (the new earth)?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by The Righterzpen, Jun 10, 2019.

  1. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

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    Here's a bit of theological "furry" fluff for all the pet lovers out there who've wondered what becomes of their beloved fuzz faces on the other side of eternity?

    I've been thinking about this recently in the wake of my dog having a medical issue where it became quite clear that his pain was not going to be easily controlled by conventional meds used on dogs. (He seemed to have unusual side effects to the most prevalent class of doggy pain meds.) The only permanent solution to this is surgery. (A $8000. to $10,000. endeavor between MRI and post surgical rehab.)

    Anyways, after agonizing about this for 4 days; I opted to request of the vet that my dog could "go live with Jesus". Well, to make a long story short, the end result of what will become of my dog has not been determined yet. He was surrendered to an agency who stated that if they can surgically fix him; they will do so and put him up for adoption. If not, he "goes to live with Jesus".

    So just before staff took my dog off to his temporary kennel; I said: "See you on the other side of eternity."

    Now I have been around enough theological neighborhood blocks to know dog's have not human type souls and so therefore are not held accountable for any disobedience to God's order they may have committed during their lives; in the life immediately here after.

    Yet, if the creation "groans and travails" awaiting the revelation of the sons of God; what about the recreated world? It does seem reasonable to me to conclude that if individual humans are raised to eternal life to reside on a recreated earth; so would individual animals be raised. (Now granted, this may mean "earth" "becomes" a much bigger planet. LOL - that's a lot of cats, dogs, turtles and parakeets.)

    Joking aside though; who else believes they may very well see pets of this life in the recreated earth?
     
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  2. RaymondG

    RaymondG Well-Known Member

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    First, If it gives you comfort to believe you will see your pet again.....hold onto that comfort. No need for validation from anyone else. I personally believe that everyone and everything you desire to be in your new earth.....will be there.

    Question for you.....Do you believe that those who have snakes and lizards for pets....will, likewise, see them resurrected, or do you only feel this for the type of pets you named?
     
  3. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

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    Well considering snakes particularly (don't think the Bible speaks of lizards as having been changed in form as snakes were because of the whole garden of Eden incident and Satan) I think it's possible that they may "re take" on their original form. Now what that was? I don't think any of us know.

    We'll know in the final resurrection though, won't we.

    :amen:
     
  4. RaymondG

    RaymondG Well-Known Member

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    original form? But I want my pet snake to be the same form and color and personality that it was the years I owned it. Are you saying that it is possible that I cannot have this while other might be able to have their cats and dggies?
     
  5. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

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    Maybe your pet snake will be better! No one knows in the new heavens and new earth what exactly things will be like.
     
  6. _Dave_

    _Dave_ Active Member Supporter

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    I definitely empathize with your emotions over your beloved dog, and over your anguish of what to do as their time on this earth draws near. We've been there.

    Personally, I believe that God gave us certain specific animal companions and endowed them with the ability to interact empathetically with humans. I'm speaking of two animals in particular -- dogs and horses. Sorry cat lovers.

    Science has actually discovered brain activity in dogs that just lights up in reaction to stimulus from their owners, cats not so much by a geometric factor.

    Anybody who has "shared a moment" with their dog, staring into its eyes, knows what I mean.

    Having said that, I don't believe we'll see our pets in heaven. I believe God's promise to remove all tears will shelter us from grief at losing our pets, just as we are sheltered from remorse over loved ones who never made the right choice here on earth.

    However, I also do believe that animals will populate the new heaven and new earth, so we can make new pet friends.
     
  7. RaymondG

    RaymondG Well-Known Member

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    Nice.....we are getting somewhere now. So you do not expect or desire to see your current dog.....but a new, better version of this dog?
     
  8. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

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    What "form" any of us take is not known at current. All we come to understand from Scripture is that we will be recognizable to each other. So if this apples to individual humans "change in form" (what ever that constitutes) I think it would be reasonable to conclude it would apply to individual animals should they be raised also in the new earth.
     
  9. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

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    It's interesting that you bring this up about looking into dog's eyes.

    LOL on the cat statement by the way. We have a cat too and cats and dogs are definitely different species!

    It's interesting that dogs don't engage in this behavior with other dogs because a dog staring in the eye of another dog is considered a threatening gesture by that dog.

    So it's fascinating that domesticated animals engage in certain behaviors with humans that they don't engage with animals of their own species, or even other species that they may cohabitant with.

    I find it ironic and "oxymoronacle" that people speak of "intelligent life" and often fail to see how much intelligence is within the animal kingdom of this very planet. We live in a "smart world". And seeing how some of those pieces fit together and interact with each other is a further testament to the genius of God.
     
  10. RaymondG

    RaymondG Well-Known Member

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    understandable.....let us leave the fate of Mr Spots and Sir Slithers a mystery to be revealed after death.

    I say, however, we not wait that long to discover our own fates.... I say we pass from death to live now,yet while in our flesh by trusting the words of Christ....
    "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

    What do you say? are you with me?
     
  11. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    I read somewhere that a young boy asked his pastor if his dog would be with him in heaven. The pastor answered, "If God thinks you need your dog to be happy in heaven, he will be there."
     
  12. DennisTate

    DennisTate Newbie Supporter

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    Little Colton Burpo reported meeting lots of pets in heaven. Actually about one near death experience in six involves a meeting with a previously deceased pet.
     
  13. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

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    Well, it certainly is a question a lot of people ask. My "furry fluff hypothesis" here has more to to with the recreated earth than "heaven" so to speak.

    I know lots of people have "near death experiences". I've had one myself. I would agree that these are phenomena that are real to those experiencing them; but are they real as in: "I really went to heaven" or "I really went to hell". That I'm a little more skeptical of.

    I was in a catastrophic car accident in 2010 and I still remember the vast majority of it; like I was watching a movie. Once in a while the memories pop back up; but I'm also a veteran who did clean up after a war and so I was rather familiar with PTSD before this accident ever happened.

    Well somewhere between the chopper ride to the hospital and being in the OR; I remember "standing" in this black space and suddenly there was a "tear" in the "fabric of time / space" (what ever you might want to call it). And from out behind a silhouette of a male figure in a long garment came this piercing light that "ripped through" the "space". My first thought was "Jesus!" and I started running toward the figure. He pointed behind me and said: "Stop, go back. Your son needs you." And I stopped and said: "O.K..." And that was it.

    Now I didn't remember that until like 6 months after the accident; so was that something that "happened" in the hospital or a dream about it from later? I don't know?

    When I got my medical records from the lawyer after the case was closed; there was evidence in the file that I believed I was somewhere other than the hospital. There were incidents I only partially remembered of thinking Jesus was in my room and then He was walking around the hospital. Well, obviously that was more a byproduct of the heavy doses of sedatives and painkillers I was on than it was based in reality! No one else saw Jesus walking the hallways of Strong Memorial Hospital! LOL

    So, yeah. What's actually involved in the process of death is still pretty mysterious and our brains are capable of doing some pretty amazing things to help us cope with extreme physical and emotional stress.
     
  14. DennisTate

    DennisTate Newbie Supporter

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    Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I so thank you for this!!!!!!!

    You might rather like this other discussion:

    Friends of yours watch Heaven Is For Real and ask you about it?
     
  15. DennisTate

    DennisTate Newbie Supporter

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    I am not certain......
    but String Theory gives us hints that higher invisible dimensions of space - time might well exist.
    Rick Joyner had dreams that remind me of the writings of C. S. Lewis and I for one could not rule out the possibility that he may have experienced one of those higher invisible dimensions / alternate universes during his dreams. He would perceive time as a few hours and be told that seventeen years had gone by in that realm?!


     
  16. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

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    I read through most of this thread and watched some of (and portions of some of) the videos and I think where someone stands on these types of occurrences; depends on whether they are Biblical cessationist or not.

    Cessationism is the doctrine that what would be defined as Biblical miracles ended with the completion of the canon of Scripture and therefore the next and only "Biblical event" humanity will experience is the second coming.

    I am a cessationist and so no; I don't believe Colton "went to heaven", nor do I believe my experience was a bonafide "vision" as the Scripture would define.

    Now the question becomes (because there is certain consistency to people's experiences) are these things "real"?

    To answer that question, I think we need to make distinctions between what is psychologically valid to the participants experience, as opposed to what's "really happening".

    This being said; we have to delineate the difference between this sort of phenomena and what was Scripturally miraculous as it applied to the record we have from the penning of the canon. The miracles that happened in the Scripture were proposed for the reason of writing the Scripture. They were the evidence presented by God to the world that the people who were saying these things were telling the truth and were indeed messengers sent by God. And this is why those who question these modern events, have a valid point about: "What do we now add this to the Bible?"

    In terms of psychology, people can have experiences that are real to them, but not really happening. I watched a documentary once on "alien abductions" and an experiment the researches did with volunteers and electromagnetic energy.

    The researches got their idea from seismologists; because these scientists noticed that just before and after earthquakes there was an uptick in people seeing "ghosts", "aliens", "angels" "demons" "Jesus", "Buddha", "jinn" etc. What ever the belief system of the individual was. There was a notable statistical increase in the sightings of such things. So the researchers came to the conclusion that this had something to do with electromagnetic energy; which is released by the earth's crust when there is quake activity.

    So they took a bunch of volunteers who'd stated they'd never had any sort of supernatural encounter and put a helmet on them that was wired with electrodes and conducted an experiment to see if they could duplicate these "visions" or "visitations" in the laboratory. They were successful. The participants were frightened, felt unable to move, felt a presence with them, and saw humanoid looking forms. The participants were able to speak and explain to the researchers who they could hear speaking to them what they were seeing and experiencing and were able to tell the experimenters to stop the experiment if they became too frightened.

    This same phenomena can be experienced by people having complex partial seizures of the occipital lobe. My son has epilepsy and he's had a couple of these types of events. The seizure is experienced in the same manner as the subjects of this electromagnetic experiment encountered. My son sometimes describes these as "waking dreams" where he sees "grey people". Now the context this can happen in may be colored by his imagination, if this happens while he's actually in REM sleep and not exactly awake. Other times it has happened when he was fully awake, conscious and could describe it as the event unfolded. It's happened at home and has happened at school. The counselor thought he was hallucinating when it happened. They are not hallucinations as happens with Schizophrenia though, because they are infrequent, short lived and internally consistent.

    So this phenomena can have a variety of reasons for its manifestation.

    Now electromagnetic energy also manifests itself as little balls of light. These can be seen and recorded on camera. They come out of the ground in places where the earth's crust is thinner and magma underneath is closer to the surface, which obviously is in places where known fault lines are. When there are shifts and frictions in the fault lines, this energy is released and these balls of light tend to be more noticeable in certain places even though an earthquake may not be "felt" on the surface. They can travel through walls and can cause humans (and probably animals) to hallucinate.

    These electromagnetic energy balls being energy sources are attracted to other energy sources. They operate sort of like lightening in that if you get too close within the path of the concentration of the electromagnetic energy felid you will get "zapped".

    This almost happened to me one night in my living room. It was like 3 AM. I'd taken some tylenol because I had a headache, shut off the light in the kitchen and was headed back to bed when this ball of light came through the wall in an arc toward me. I wasn't afraid of it because I knew what it was. I ducked and it flew past my left ear. It made the hair on the back of my neck stand up. I was like "Woah God, that was weird!" I eventually shook off the creepy feeling and went back to bed.

    So translate this in to near death experiences. Most of these NDE's are recorded as having happened in hospitals and often where people have been "de-fibbed'. Now obviously if the doctor or medic sends an electronic pulse through the heart, it travels through the body and affects the brain. Now the brain may be functioning up to 3 minutes after the heart stops beating. "Death" is not an instantaneous event, "medically speaking" it does happen in "stages". Medical science has never brought back someone who has no brain waves. (i.e. brain dead) even if machines are keeping the body alive. This is often the case for people who are "brain dead" who are "kept alive" temporarily on request of the family for transplant purposes.

    Now as per my experience, there is nothing in the medical record that I'd found that stated I'd been "de-fibbed". That doesn't mean I wasn't "de-fibbed". It's possible that I was and it wasn't recorded? So thus in my case, I think my experience was probably more a dream than an event caused by electronic energy passing through my brain. Now it is also possible that my experience was the result of a seizure. I did have a traumatic brain injury, although at this point I am not reported as having epilepsy.

    So, all that being said; let's consider the psychological impact of all this.

    From the stand point of psychology; dreams (especially recurring ones) are often understood as as subconscious way of trying to cope with, or make sense of psychological stress. This is why dreams play a major role in PTSD.

    Dose this mean dreams are not valid or have no meaning to the dreamer? No it doesn't. Yet on the same token, it doesn't mean the dream "comes from God" either.

    Now I commonly dream about Biblical things. I've dreamt about the end of the world. I've dreamt about wars (I"m a veteran though, so I'm not sure if that "counts". LOL) I commonly pray in my sleep. I hear Christian music in my sleep. One of the people I see most frequently in my dreams is Jesus. (Jesus and my son.) Sometimes I dream about my parents (who are both deceased). Now someone might read this and think - "Oh how wonderfully spiritual that your dreams are of such consistent content - they must be Divinely imparted!" Yet, I don't believe they are.

    Why is that?

    Primarily because they aren't Biblically consistent. Sometimes they are, but even when that's the case; I still don't believe they are Divinely imparted. (Over the past 30 years, one of my most consistently recurring dreams containing Jesus is sexual in nature. Now how many Christians would ever admit to that sort of dream? In 30 years, I think I've only ever met one other; yet I would hypothesis that this sort of thing is probably not that uncommon. People just don't talk about it. And I've never encountered anyone who'd say such type dream is Divinely imparted. So if you want to know the basic reason, I don't take a lot of stock in dreams being "Divinely imparted" that's why.)

    On the flip side of this, I don't think my "less than Biblical dreams" are demonic either. I've come to understand they represent psychological conflict in me that's connected to my past life experiences and attempts to make "spiritual sense" out of my life. The wacky things that sometimes happen in my dreams don't shock me anymore. I chalk them up to something else the subconscious is trying to sort through and pray about straightening my conscious thoughts to be ordered and fixed on things that are rightly divided.

    I've always been the kind of person who liked to put my mind to mysteries I don't understand. Can I solve the puzzle. So I do tend to be analytical when looking at controversial subjects; as well as psychologically heavy subjects like what makes someone a serial killer or a pedophile etc. Sometimes consistencies researches have found in some of these realms have helped me answer theological questions related to sin, wrath and retribution.

    So, for I guess what ever I've discovered is worth to you; there's my "two cents".

    LOL
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2019
  17. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

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    I'm a bit familiar with "string theory" yet admittedly, have not studied it much; so I can't say I've formulated an opinion on such.

    I do agree though; it's certainly Scriptural that there are realms and dimensions of this created world that we don't "see".
     
  18. DennisTate

    DennisTate Newbie Supporter

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    I could be wrong... but at this time these near death experience accounts are the best fulfillment of this promise that I have found yet?

    Jhn 16:25

    These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.
     
  19. DennisTate

    DennisTate Newbie Supporter

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    I could be wrong but until 1988 I was all caught up in the Soul Sleep doctrine and these near death experience accounts helped me to look at 2 Corinthians 12
    I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago (whether in the body, I know not; or whether out of the body, I know not; God knoweth), such a one caught up even to the third heaven.

    3 And I know such a man (whether in the body, or apart from the body, I know not; God knoweth), 4 how that he was caught up into Paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

    in a new light..... and break out of that misunderstanding.

    Dr. George Ritchie's Near-Death Experience
     
  20. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

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    I agree, that I don't believe in "soul sleep" either; but I don't think you need NDE's to prove that.

    The story of the rich man and Lazarus makes an interesting account of the consciousness of people in Sheol. I'd discussed this with a couple of other people in various other threads (now of course I don't remember what threads those were)? Those conversations involved defining "Abraham's bosom" and "the third heaven", "paradise", "the tree of life" (being in the 3rd heaven / synonymous with "paradise" (I.E Jesus telling the thief "Today you will be with me in paradise.")

    Sheol, of course is different than the lake of fire.

    One of those (and off the top of my head; I can't remember which one; but I believe the reference is the lake of fire) depicts a "place where they are not heard"; which I think is where the confusion of the "soul sleep" doctrine is coming from.

    They're "not being heard" isn't on account of their lack of consciousness; it's because God has shut them in a place where they are void of any comfort of His mercy. They are in the "outer darkness" away from His presence; and what a terrifying proposition that is! The epitome of retribution as being utterly forsaken by God! The irony thereof being that in this life that's all they wanted. The desire of the natural man is to be separated from God so he can enjoy his sin in peace, being a lover of darkness rather than light. And in the end, what the unregenerate desire is exactly what they receive; to be cast out of God's presence.

    "Be careful what you wish for; because you just might get it all. You just might get it all; and then some you don't want...." (Home - Daughtry)

    If you look at the context of the reference in John that you quoted. "I will show you plainly of the Father." has to do with knowing Christ is the Redeemer. We know this because if you follow the response of what the disciples say to Jesus; they say to him: "We know you came from God..."

    From this Jesus explains that he will die; they won't see him and then they will see him again. The peace and security they will have is known at Pentecost when they are indwelled by the Holy Spirit. I don't need someone's (half truth account at best) of a "near death experience" to be assured that heaven is real and that there is a new world coming. I know that is a reality because the Holy Spirit bears record of that as the entity obviously having witnessed all these events the Scripture speaks of. This is why the only testimony I trust is the Scripture.

    Things people claim happen may be interesting. They may be a genuine phenomena explainable by other means; yet still not be wholly reliable as "Divine truth" if they are reliable at all?

    When the figure told me "Go back, your son needs you." That was true. My son does need me. But was that merely a manifestation of what my subconscious already knew, despite my personal struggle with my own desire to leave this world?

    Ultimately, whether we live or die is in the hand of God. I can't "will myself dead" if it isn't my appointed time. Yet I distinctly remember saying to God before the paramedics pulled me out of the car and stuck me in the chopper: "God if You want me to survive this; than You're going to have to make that happen; because I can't." And I knew that was true. If I was going to survive this accident, that was not going to happen just because I "willed it". If death was going to come; I also wasn't of the will to fight that either. I was resigned to the fact that whether or not I lived or died was in God's hands. (Matter of fact, of the condition I was in, the paramedics were shocked that I was still conscious. Both paramedics and police said that.)

    Now there did come a time that the shock of the trauma did overcome my ability to remain conscious. I passed out in the chopper and woke up and vomited a couple of times and I vaguely remember being rolled through the corridor to the OR and people cutting my clothing off in preparation for surgery. I'd been intubated and they were "breathing" for me. I just laid there with my eyes open, not really thinking about anything. I couldn't "see" much because of the bright lights. (I couldn't see out of one eye anyways; my face was all torn up and one eye had a "globe rupture"). I remember a nurse saying: "She's awake." and being told I was about to get anesthesia. I felt a sense of relief. I either was going to wake up after surgery or I wasn't going to wake up at all.

    The next time I did wake up. I was screaming. It was hard to breath and it felt like my back was broken. I remember the nurse saying: "No, your back isn't broken. You just need to be repositioned and she moved me around and stuck some pillows under my shoulder. It took about 10 minus, but I felt better and "went back to sleep". I think I was in the OR recovery room? (It was bright in there too.) Eventually I was taken to surgical ICU. I don't remember much of that, other than periodically waking up screaming because I was in pain. I remember "trying" to watch TV. and having absolutely no sense of time. I kept asking the staff when ever I woke up what day was it; what time was it. They kept pointing me to the clock on the wall.

    One of those points when I woke up. I was asking: "Where is he, where'd he go?" There was one person there. She said: "You're husband in on the 7th floor." I said: "No, I know where he is." Then she said: "Your son is on the 4th floor." Then I said: "That must be where he went." At this point a nurse had come in the room. Then I said: "When he comes back, send him in here. I want him to stay with me." And the one staff said: "Who?" I said: "Jesus". The other staff said: "Jesus who?" And I yelled at them. "Jesus Christ. The guy who rose from the dead. It's Easter Sunday. What's the matter with you people!" The one looked at the nurse and the nurse whispered: "The doctors think she has a head injury." (Which was true I did.)

    At some point after that they called a chaplain. He came to see me again the next day when I went into surgery for my leg and he asked me if I remembered talking to him the night before and I said no. He kind of laughed and said: "Well that's probably a good thing." I asked: "What, did I say something stupid?" He said: "Well, you weren't making a lot of sense." Then he asked me if I was Roman Catholic and I said no. He said: "Oh, OK?" and we started talking a little bit about theology. He told me I'd been in a bad car accident. I said: "Yeah, I know that." We talked about finding purpose for things that happen to us. He was what I'd call a "run of the mill, evangelical Baptist type preacher". He'd come to the conclusion that my beliefs were probably similar to his. I remember telling him that I'd be "theologically calvinistic if you were to stick a doctrinal label on me." He said he knew what that was; quoted a couple of Bible passages and we talked about those. I told him about my son; a lot of his trials and tribulations.

    He stayed with me until they came and got me for surgery. I asked him if he was going to come back and see me after surgery. He said he was just "on call" and wasn't a regular chaplain there. So unless he got called again. I probably wouldn't see him; but he said if he did and I was still in the hospital, he'd come look me up. I don't know if he'd been called again while I was there. We'd been in the hospital for about a month; but I never saw him again.

    So... on the other side of eternity; I guess I'll find out who the mysterious chaplain was that day?
     
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