Alec Baldwin accidentally shoots cinematographer Halyna Hutchins dead on set.

Desk trauma

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I'll need to look more closely, but I don't think I've ever seen recoil in a movie displayed as it should naturally be shown.
Movies that exclusively use CGI for gun fire can be awful to the point where it's immersion breaking for a non-firearms expert such as myself. Muzzle flashes are over done to absurdity and recoil is either a total no sell or overblown way out of proportion. I recall the most egregious example being someone standing flat footed firing from the hip on full auto while the rifle remained perfectly still.
 
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Tinker Grey

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The first time my daughter fired a pistol, she looked over at me and exclaimed, "Movies lie!"

I'll need to look more closely, but I don't think I've ever seen recoil in a movie displayed as it should naturally be shown.
I've only been to a shooting range once. My "movies lie" moment was realizing how loud hand-cannons are. (I was firing a .22, but those in other lanes were firing much larger guns.)

Perhaps verisimilitude is myth movie makers tell themselves. (Or, perhaps I'm just wrong.) I doubt I'd notice a difference between an actor handling/reacting to a fake gun and a real one.

ETA: @Desk trauma certainly has a point about firing a full-auto gun.
 
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Tinker Grey

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Off the top of my also non-industry involved head I don't think it would be so hard to make a prop non-projectile firing gun with internal workings that cause enough kick back to provide believable visuals or at least ques that an actor could work with. Hopefully that notion isn't unique to me and should it exists it will become more widely used or some prop maker is currently sweating and swearing one into existence in their shop.

An overly dramatic phrase from the industry I am involved in comes to mind: the safety rules are written in blood.

It's worth noting, I think, that this is "only" the 2nd gun fatality in nearly 30 years in the movie industry. While any such death is tragic, I don't know that this one warrants more rules.
 
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Desk trauma

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It's worth noting, I think, that this is "only" the 2nd gun fatality in nearly 30 years in the movie industry. While any such death is tragic, I don't know that this one warrants more rules.

In my eyes it comes down to eliminating a risk entirely when possible. If an activity does not need to take place at all due to technology offering an alternative solution I lean in that direction.
 
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RDKirk

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Movies that exclusively use CGI for gun fire can be awful to the point where it's immersion breaking for a non-firearms expert such as myself. Muzzle flashes are over done to absurdity and recoil is either a total no sell or overblown way out of proportion. I recall the most egregious example being someone standing flat footed firing from the hip on full auto while the rifle remained perfectly still.

I see that in old pre-CGI movies.
 
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RDKirk

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It's worth noting, I think, that this is "only" the 2nd gun fatality in nearly 30 years in the movie industry. While any such death is tragic, I don't know that this one warrants more rules.

I think if they followed their existing armorer procedures properly, they would be safe. Their conditions are narrow and controllable. In this case, it's becoming clear that the armorer had let things--and even contributed to things--get far, far out of the intended level of control.
 
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Tinker Grey

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In my eyes it comes down to eliminating a risk entirely when possible. If an activity does not need to take place at all due to technology offering an alternative solution I lean in that direction.
Yeah, I mostly agree.

However, there is sometimes a cost to a new rule that isn't acceptable. (But I'm not saying about this case.) For example, I work for a defense contractor. As you may be aware, people have sold secrets to our (US) enemies. It isn't acceptable in my opinion (given the rarity) to search every person every day as they leave to see if they are stealing secrets.

"No risk is acceptable" just isn't feasible. There is a risk I will die driving home, but I'll take it every day.

Again, though, I think it may be plausible/feasible to implement a reasonable protocol that'd limits incidents even further.
 
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stevil

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So, ultimately, Hollywood needs to be practicing the same safety standards when handling a firearm that normal people are supposed to. Meaning that, at the very least, the person on set responsible for the firearm needs to show the actor that the firearm is not loaded. Saying cold or hot is not good enough. Also, if the actor is going to be practicing his or her quick-draw (as recent reports have stated Baldwin was doing) or anything else with the firearm, they need to be facing away from people, loaded or not. That alone would have prevented this tragedy from occurring.

That's just the bottom line ultimately. There needs to be a complete overhaul of the safety standards on set when it comes to firearms. Without that, and practicing the same basic firearm safety that firearm owners are supposed to follow, this will continue to happen.
Also, if they are practising drawing of the gun, they don't need any rounds in the gun, don't need blanks or anything.
And the guns should be in direct possession or locked up when not in use, by the person responsible for the guns, they shouldn't be used by the crew to shoot at cans with live rounds.

If I was an actor I'd be very wary about being in a scene where I have to point a gun at someone and pull the trigger.
 
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Hank77

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It's even harder to see a prop person doing this on purpose.
Negligence on an unsafe set?

Three crew members who were present at the Bonanza Creek Ranch set on Saturday said they were particularly concerned about two accidental prop gun discharges.

Baldwin’s stunt double accidentally fired two rounds Saturday after being told that the gun was “cold” — lingo for a weapon that doesn’t have any ammunition, including blanks — two crew members who witnessed the episode told the Los Angeles Times.

“There should have been an investigation into what happened,” a crew member said. “There were no safety meetings. There was no assurance that it wouldn’t happen again. All they wanted to do was rush, rush, rush.”

'Rust' crew describes on-set gun safety issues and misfires days before fatal shooting
 
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Goonie

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Negligence on an unsafe set?

Three crew members who were present at the Bonanza Creek Ranch set on Saturday said they were particularly concerned about two accidental prop gun discharges.

Baldwin’s stunt double accidentally fired two rounds Saturday after being told that the gun was “cold” — lingo for a weapon that doesn’t have any ammunition, including blanks — two crew members who witnessed the episode told the Los Angeles Times.

“There should have been an investigation into what happened,” a crew member said. “There were no safety meetings. There was no assurance that it wouldn’t happen again. All they wanted to do was rush, rush, rush.”

'Rust' crew describes on-set gun safety issues and misfires days before fatal shooting
And. The gun in question was supposed to have been used for target practice by staff before hand, then put back in the tray.

The head of props/armorer and prop staff and the responsible producer are in deep doodoo.
 
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RDKirk

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Negligence on an unsafe set?

Three crew members who were present at the Bonanza Creek Ranch set on Saturday said they were particularly concerned about two accidental prop gun discharges.

Baldwin’s stunt double accidentally fired two rounds Saturday after being told that the gun was “cold” — lingo for a weapon that doesn’t have any ammunition, including blanks — two crew members who witnessed the episode told the Los Angeles Times.

“There should have been an investigation into what happened,” a crew member said. “There were no safety meetings. There was no assurance that it wouldn’t happen again. All they wanted to do was rush, rush, rush.”

'Rust' crew describes on-set gun safety issues and misfires days before fatal shooting

Yeah, there should have been a new armorer after that first incident. "You had one job...."
 
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Bobber

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I really don't get this. I worked in industry for over 30 years and you'd have to have two or three people sign off with initials for quality control. (we'd use a punch card system)

For something as important as what we're talking about you'd have the main person in charge of the guns initial documents and further down a second quality controls confirms the same so then the actor as last man would sign on the same. Three checks.
 
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SimplyMe

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Yes, a live bullet is an actual bullet, which should have never been confused with a blank... You can see the difference, where one has a lead piece at the end that shoots out, while the other has folded over ends where the projectile would be.

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My understanding is that real bullets are used on set -- but they are not "live" rounds. There are scenes that show an actor loading a bullet and possibly shooting after loading (with sound effects added in post-production) or similar, my understanding is that the armorer removes the primer and powder from the cartridge and puts the bullet back in the gun. Obviously, this requires a lot of care by the prop master and armorer to ensure these bullets with no powder are not mixed/confused with live bullets.

I think this whole thing is a senseless, preventable tragedy. If Hollywood spent more time learning about gun safety instead of protesting the right to bear arms...even though they use real guns on set, we wouldn't have this issue. Here is a list of ways that this would have been prevented 100% of the time.

1. The gun should have been given to him completely unloaded, the revolver should have been open and the ammo should have been given to him separately or the gun should have been loaded in front of him as he watched. (Perfect demonstration for the rule that "The gun is always loaded."
2. The director of cinematography and the director should have never been behind the camera that he was aiming at to begin with. Blank or not. There was no reason to be behind it as they have separate monitors that they could have been watching the feed from the camera on. (Perfect demonstration of the rule do not point your firearm at anything you do not intend to destroy.)

In my opinion, any actor who's going to be handling a firearm needs to go through basic firearms safety course. It's been over 25 years since Brandon Lee's death and they're still not learning from past mistakes.

My understanding of Brandon Lee's death is that it partially involved the type of "safe" bullet, that I describe above. From what I have heard, they did a scene where Lee had to load the gun, so they used the bullets with powder removed. The mistake was that the prop master/armorer did not remove the primer; when Lee shot the gun after loading it, the primer caused the bullet to move into the chamber where it got stuck.

When they removed the "safe" bullets from the gun, the person who unloaded it did not notice the bullet was missing from the spent cartridge and no one checked to ensure the barrel of the gun was clear. They then loaded the blanks. Since the blanks have, essentially, a full load of powder, when the gun was shot with the blank, the explosive force of the blank's powder dislodged the bullet and killed Lee.

I will agree that any actor handling a gun should go through gun training, it seems much smarter -- though I understand the argument that actors are "too busy" with remembering lines and getting in the right "mood" for their scene. I think the bigger reason is that some actors are prima donnas who can't be bothered with the "grunt" work of being responsible with props. I also think their should be an armorer but, to help make the armorer more accountable, have the actor (who has done their gun training), when they pick up their prop gun, see the gun loaded -- ensuring the proper "bullets" are loaded -- so they can also verify that the proper "ammo" (blanks, bullets with no powder, etc.) are used.
 
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RDKirk

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My understanding is that real bullets are used on set -- but they are not "live" rounds. There are scenes that show an actor loading a bullet and possibly shooting after loading (with sound effects added in post-production) or similar, my understanding is that the armorer removes the primer and powder from the cartridge and puts the bullet back in the gun. Obviously, this requires a lot of care by the prop master and armorer to ensure these bullets with no powder are not mixed/confused with live bullets.

That is called a "dummy round." Those can be purchased, and I'd expect the property master to have purchased them and kept them in store, although the armorer may do so as well. Usually dummy rounds are marked in some way to differentiate them by sight from live ammunition. I use dummy rounds for gun-handling practice that have bright blue "bullets" and blue "primers," but they could as well be marked in a more subtle, but definite, way.

I would not expect, these days, for anyone on the set to take the time to assemble dummy rounds themselves, but perhaps some armorers do. But for sure, they would not do it by disassembling a live round...they'd simply build the round without the propellant and primer in the first place. Much easier that way...and cheaper.

A blank round contains primer and propellant in the case, but no bullet. The case may simply be crimped or there may be wadding compressed into the casing to hold in the propellant. One bona fide reason for using blanks in the past was to get the muzzle blast effect. Another was to cause the slide in semi-auto weapons to cycle realistically. Today, that can all be done with CGI. The armorer should be in charge of all blank rounds, and should be keeping constant count and track of them. At any given moment the armorer should know where every blank round on the set is. The armorer should be retrieving and counting the empty cases as they're used, and making sure the number equates at the end of the day, just like an accountant.

There is no reason why any live rounds--that is, cartridges complete with bullets, propellant, and primer--should ever be anywhere on the set. There is absolutely no reason for them, not now and not even in the past.

I will agree that any actor handling a gun should go through gun training, it seems much smarter -- though I understand the argument that actors are "too busy" with remembering lines and getting in the right "mood" for their scene. I think the bigger reason is that some actors are prima donnas who can't be bothered with the "grunt" work of being responsible with props. I also think their should be an armorer but, to help make the armorer more accountable, have the actor (who has done their gun training), when they pick up their prop gun, see the gun loaded -- ensuring the proper "bullets" are loaded -- so they can also verify that the proper "ammo" (blanks, bullets with no powder, etc.) are used.

Many gun stores have a jar full of cartridges on the counter labeled "Unloaded guns." Those will be all the cartridges that have been ejected from guns brought in by customers claiming "Oh, don't worry...it's not loaded!" The clerks behind the counter will, of course, always check themselves...and glory be...there's a cartridge in there!

And, supposedly, those customers are people who know guns. My point is, I think "gun training" will be lost on most actors. Only a small percentage will ever handle a gun outside a few roles, and training not practiced is training that will be lost. The fact is, the situation is narrow enough and controlled enough that the armorer--who is paid union wages to do only one job--should be able to handle it.

And remember: There shouldn't be any live ammunition on the set anyway.
 
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Bobber

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I will agree that any actor handling a gun should go through gun training, it seems much smarter -- though I understand the argument that actors are "too busy" with remembering lines and getting in the right "mood" for their scene.

Nope I don't understand that at all. Look I volunteer in a soup kitchen and had to take three different courses. CPR training (one day for us on the basics) food preparation course from the government, then handling aggression or problems course, also to have a criminal background check. You had to be certified with this, certified with that and the other.

If some actors are as you say "too busy" with less important things then they need to be less busy and get someone else for the acting job. The last man handling the device has to bear some of the responsibility for what occurred. I think it would be a shoddy excuse for anyone to suggest they shouldn't.

I think the bigger reason is that some actors are prima donnas who can't be bothered with the "grunt" work of being responsible with props.

Perhaps but that's where they have to be made to be responsible.
 
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Bobber

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And, supposedly, those customers are people who know guns. My point is, I think "gun training" will be lost on most actors. Only a small percentage will ever handle a gun outside a few roles, and training not practiced is training that will be lost. The fact is, the situation is narrow enough and controlled enough that the armorer--who is paid union wages to do only one job--should be able to handle it.

I don't know anything much about guns but I'm thinking the gun training that an actor would have to take could just be basic which connects to what they're employed to do. I don't think you'd need a mutiple week course knowing everything under the sun about weaponry but even a 5 hour training and they'd need to be re-certified after every two years.
 
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Hank77

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I don't know anything much about guns but I'm thinking the gun training that an actor would have to take could just be basic which connects to what they're employed to do. I don't think you'd need a mutiple week course knowing everything under the sun about weaponry but even a 5 hour training and they'd need to be re-certified after every two years.
Maybe prop managers should be certified and producers should be required to hire only certified people.
 
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RDKirk

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I don't know anything much about guns but I'm thinking the gun training that an actor would have to take could just be basic which connects to what they're employed to do. I don't think you'd need a mutiple week course knowing everything under the sun about weaponry but even a 5 hour training and they'd need to be re-certified after every two years.

As I said before, training not exercised is training lost. They would have to take five hours of set time every movie with every type of weapon used on the movie with every actor touching one. And some of those automatic weapons are relatively complex. And some actors are kids.

Remember, there is never supposed to be live ammunition on the set anyway, so this isn't the same situation as a live firing range or any situation where live ammunition is certain to be present.

Furthermore...these guns required .45 Long Colt ammunition, which is particular to that kind of gun. There's not a lot of it made, compared to common rounds like .38 special, 9mm Parabellum, or .45 ACP. Heck, I haven't even seen .45 Long Colt on the shelves in over a year, and I've heard from shooters in forums across the country who have been complaining about not being able to find it. Somebody went to a good amount of trouble to procure that ammunition.
 
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RDKirk

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Well, I've been going on about the armorer having just one job, but apparently...not this time.

From an interview with Neal W. Zoromski, who turned down the job:


Neal W. Zoromski has spent three decades in Hollywood, working on movies big and small, but never on a western. So he was thrilled last month when he was asked to join the crew of an Alec Baldwin film in New Mexico.
....
Zoromski said he initially asked for a department of five technicians. He was told that "Rust" was a low-budget production and that plans were to use items from a local prop house. He modified his request to have at least two experienced crew members: one to serve as an assistant prop master and the other as an armorer, or gun wrangler, dedicated to making sure the weapons were safe, oiled and functioning properly.

But the "Rust" producers insisted that only one person was needed to handle both tasks.

"You never have a prop assistant double as the armorer," Zoromski said. "Those are two really big jobs."

Walters, the production manager, sent Zoromski an email Sept. 24 that read: "We'd really like one of the assistants to be the armorer that can push up on the gunfights and heavy armor days," according to a copy of the email shared with The Times. (Walters did not respond to requests for comment.)

Zoromski replied: "Unfortunately, I have to pass on this opportunity. I am grateful for your interest and wish nothing but the very best for you, your crew and the show."

Veteran prop master turned down 'Rust' film: 'An accident waiting to happen' (yahoo.com)

I would expect that the 57-year-old, 30-year veteran would have also put his foot down about the guns being used for live-shooting sport between scenes, whereas the 24-year-old novice that they put into the role probably could not.
 
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The last man handling the device has to bear some of the responsibility for what occurred. I think it would be a shoddy excuse for anyone to suggest they shouldn't.
I once watched Randy Quaid get -$2000.00 on Jeopardy.

Actors aren’t usually held responsible in these situations because the professionals (who these thespians work with), know that, by-and-large, they can be idiots the same way a brilliant professor orders the same dessert everyday so that he doesn’t have to waste brain-power deciding on which dessert to order.
 
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