Alabama's Restrictive Abortion Law: Rape and Incest Discussion

[GodLovesCats]

Which Americans are coming to their senses? Abortion will always be a heavily divided issue regardless of what happens in state and federal courts. You can't make a blanket statement based on the flurry of anti-abortion laws recently about American sentiments on the issue.

 

[dms1972]

I never said mothers should abort fetuses to avoid health risks. I have clearly stated many times when an expecting mother is impregnated by rape, she is physically, mentally, and financially vulnerable to kill her unborn baby instead of get the help she needs. This is not a diffuclt issue to understand.

Just to draw out (Socratically as it were) what you are arguing - what therefore is the help a mother in this situation needs most?

 

[GodLovesCats]

My point is rape victims should not be forced to stay pregnant 9 months because the state says so. If the government makes that decision for her, she is being treated like a second-class citizen.

 

[dms1972]

My point is rape victims should not be forced to stay pregnant 9 months because the state says so. If the government makes that decision for her, she is being treated like a second-class citizen.

Governments set all sorts of laws to limit (for their own benefit and the benefit of society at large) peoples actions to some degree, from speed limits, to laws governing alcohol, to health and safety in the workplace. If everyone is equal before the law (the principle of isonomy), I don't see were your 'second class citizen' argument comes from?

 

[Robert6671]

I am definitely pro-life. I had a son that was born in 2019 that was born with a rare terminal illness that we did not know about until after he was born. Had we have known that he had a terminal disease, would we have had an abortion?... Absolutely not! Even with a terminal illness, he touched more lives and had such profound impact on others that God was glorified through his brokenness. ANY child that is conceived, regardless of the circumstances, has value that in my opinion is more valuable that 9 months of misery of a mother carrying a child from rape or incest. As Christians, our job is to be there to support the mother who was victimized and help her to cope. Being pro-life, you also have to be pro adoption. I am in fact, the impact that our son had on our lives has led us to adopt and we are currently in the process. Once a child has been born, then put it up for adoption. The birth mother never has to see it again. Regardless a life is a life trying to put the mother over the child is still saying that one life is more important than another. I saw a meme one time that really struck home with me.. it was of someone asking God why there was no cure for cancer and other diseases and God's reply to the asker was..."you aborted them" God can always bring good things from tragic situations. Furthermore, when the mother that was raped or has an incestuous conception, makes the decision to abort the child, she is in essence elevating herself to the status of god because she is taking the life/death of the child into her own hands.

Good for you...you made that choice it is up the the parents on whether they want to do that or not. Is it more human to allow a child you know is terminal to be born and suffer or end the pregnancy.

 

[Robert6671]

I believe abortion is wrong. If a mother is not able to take care of the child after giving birth to him or her adoption may be an option, though personally I think it would be important to be prayerful and cautious in choosing where to place a child for adoption.

I don't see how it makes sense for a mother to not want a child due to their gender or potential disability or illness of the child. I believe it is God who created a child's gender and allowed the possibility of potential disability of a child (I think also think it is possible a child may be born with or acquire disability even if genetic testing does not show anything). Also, I believe a child's inherent worth is in no way less because of his or her gender or the presence or absence of disability. Personally I think while they would probably not hope for it, that parents should be emotionally prepared for anything a child may go through, including their child having extremely severe disabilities. I do believe God can heal.

Rape is a tragic and utterly immoral act. I have never been raped, so I can't claim to know the traumatic effects that may result from rape. While rape is a reprehensible and terrible act and nothing can justify rape, I personally do not think that the fact that a child is conceived through rape justifies abortion. While I definitely do not hope for such evil to happen to me, if I conceived a child through someone's rape while I recognise rape is a reprehensible and extremely immoral act I would hope that I find the strength from God to carry the child to term.

If all women were against killing an unborn child, then government laws prohibiting abortion would not be necessary other than to stop others forcing abortions on women.

That is your religious belief...what about those who have no problem with it...Christian are trying to force there beliefs on another person...know one has that right.

 

[dms1972]

Which Americans are coming to their senses? Abortion will always be a heavily divided issue regardless of what happens in state and federal courts. You can't make a blanket statement based on the flurry of anti-abortion laws recently about American sentiments on the issue.

Fair enough, that should be "...some Americans."

 

[God saves]

That is your religious belief...what about those who have no problem with it...Christian are trying to force there beliefs on another person...know one has that right.

I assume you are a Christian. I am open to any biblical insight you may have.

I do not claim to know the Bible well. However, if you consider the Bible to be God's word, if the Bible implies that abortion is wrong then abortion is wrong.

Biblically it is wrong to have more than one spouse and many countries have this government law that you can only be married to one husband (if you are a woman) or one wife (if you are a man). Do you see that as forcing beliefs on others?

People having no problem with something doesn't make the "something" right. If two child were a newborn at the same time and one was likely about to die and one was healthy, would it be in any way permissible to murder any of the children when the Bible clearly forbids murder? I believe if God creates a born child who has a terminal illness, He allowed the child's illness to happen, but whether or not the child has a terminal illness he or she is still a child made in God's image. I believe the important thing is forgiveness of our sins and our salvation through the Lord Jesus Christ, and I believe God can heal if He wills.

Unborn children have body parts at a certain stage, and I cannot see how breaking unborn children's body parts is in any way a moral act. Also, if abortion in many places are illegal from a certain point in pregnancy, why not at the beginning of pregnancy?

If an unborn child is alive, and if fetuses have body parts and can react to stimulus, why would it be permissible to kill him or her?

And if you are a Christian, I would expect that you agree that a child's inherent worth is the same no matter what his or her gender is and whether or not he or she has a disability or illness.

I believe that people having gone through trauma before, during or after pregnancy must be given the support they need, that pregnant mothers should able to have access to prenatal health care, and I believe abortion is wrong.

To me, the issue with abortion is that it stops the life of the unborn child, and affects the unborn child as well as the mother.

 

[dms1972]

Inability to receive gynecological and obstretric care for 9 months at a women's health clinic, so abortoin is a way to avoid hospital debts. Alabama rejected an amendment that would lessen the problem by providing Medicare benefits.

Forgive me I am having to search news sources to get the full picture. Your comment is clearer now to me. I agree that if a woman cannot have an abortion or doesn't want to have an abortion she should not be denied peri-natal health care, or only able to get it if she can afford it. That was my point even before reading the news about it. There is an order in which to tackle problems, and if one state just tries to copy another state when their own has different socio-economic issues, it may make the problem worse - that is not an argument against the fetal heart-beat bill but it is one against trying to tackle issues in the wrong order. Makes more sense to begin by providing peri-natal care for the those below the poverty line.

I see the context now of your comments. That's a valid point and consistency by providing support services if abortion is not available is a moral requirement.

 

[GodLovesCats]

DMZ, the problem in Alabama (which I highlighted earlier) is the money and support rape victims need to avoid choosing abortion is almost nonexistant. States are putting the cart in front of the horse. They need to make sure females of child bearing age can easily access psychological and financial help in addition to women's health care. Instead they ban abortions for rape victims first, leaving hundreds of pregnant girls and young women with no way to solve the problems that lead to making that choice. Until everything an expecting mother who was impregnated by rape needs is readily accessible throughout the state allowing her to get an abortion is better than saying, "Sorry, you have to stay pregnant all 9 months."

 

[GodLovesCats]

Unborn children have body parts at a certain stage, and I cannot see how breaking unborn children's body parts is in any way a moral act. Also, if abortion in many places are illegal from a certain point in pregnancy, why not at the beginning of pregnancy?

Critics of Georgia's new "heartbeat law" claim many women don't know they are pregnant yet in 6 weeks.

 

[dms1972]

DMZ, the problem in Alabama (which I highlighted earlier) is the money and support rape victims need to avoid choosing abortion is almost nonexistant. States are putting the cart in front of the horse. They need to make sure females of child bearing age can easily access psychological and financial help in addition to women's health care. Instead they ban abortions for rape victims first, leaving hundreds of pregnant girls and young women with no way to solve the problems that lead to making that choice. Until everything an expecting mother who was impregnated by rape needs is readily accessible throughout the state allowing her to get an abortion is better than saying, "Sorry, you have to stay pregnant all 9 months."

No the ban is not for rape victims first, its across the board as I understand it. I am not going to play into the fallacy of your argument about the duration of pregnancy. if you were attempting a moral argument it would be not because of duration but because of wrong state priorities and failing to first provide proper mother and child services under State Aid if necessary. An argument about duration of pregnancy in itself is an argument about inconvenience, its lacking in moral weight.

The problem is also the way some people speak of 'health care' and "reproductive rights" as if that should include abortion simpliciter rather than abortion under certain circumstances.

Ideas and choices have consequences, remove one set of consequences another takes it place. The intent of the original proponents of abortion way back in the 70s was that abortion should be rare - is it rare?.

And the argument has changed and the goal-posts have been shifted and all that is the result of liberalising and badly thought out laws.

 

[GodLovesCats]

My brother in-law is an obstetrician. Women's health care does not mean abortion to him. For me, getting a "convenience" abortion is not health care, but doing it for a medical reason is. The duration thing is just about going to term, (minimum 37 weeks for singles), not specifically 9 months.

 

[dms1972]

My brother in-law is an obstetrician. Women's health care does not mean abortion to him. For me, getting a "convenience" abortion is not health care, but doing it for a medical reason is. The duration thing is just about going to term, (minimum 37 weeks for singles), not specifically 9 months.

And this law provides for abortion under certain medical circumstances.

Why in amendments to the bill did they include making it illegal for a man to get a vasectomy?

 

[GodLovesCats]

And this law provides for abortion under certain medical circumstances.

Why in amendments to the bill did they include making it illegal for a man to get a vasectomy?

Only one Senator proposed amendments. All three of them failed, so men can still get vasectomies.

Most likely the amendments drafter wrote that to retaliate against the state's decision to include rape and incest victims in the abortion ban. She did not say anything about it publicly.

 

[dms1972]

Critics of Georgia's new "heartbeat law" claim many women don't know they are pregnant yet in 6 weeks.

But is it possible to know if one is pregnant before six weeks?

 

[dms1972]

Only one Senator proposed amendments. All three of them failed, so men can still get vasectomies.

Most likely the amendments drafter wrote that to retaliate against the state's decision to include rape and incest victims in the abortion ban. She did not say anything about it publicly.

If so it would seem to have sunk the amendment to provide Medicare pregnancy services for women who would no longer be able to get abortions, or was it also asking the legislators to pick up the costs - I didn't understand that part or what that entailed exactly?

Anyway I should not be getting into this so much, living outside the US. I think the political and the public debate needs to become less polarised for there to be fruitful discussions.

May the God give wisdom to all in positions of political and civic leadership in these difficult issues.

 

[Robert6671]

I assume you are a Christian. I am open to any biblical insight you may have.

I do not claim to know the Bible well. However, if you consider the Bible to be God's word, if the Bible implies that abortion is wrong then abortion is wrong.

Biblically it is wrong to have more than one spouse and many countries have this government law that you can only be married to one husband (if you are a woman) or one wife (if you are a man). Do you see that as forcing beliefs on others?

People having no problem with something doesn't make the "something" right. If two child were a newborn at the same time and one was likely about to die and one was healthy, would it be in any way permissible to murder any of the children when the Bible clearly forbids murder? I believe if God creates a born child who has a terminal illness, He allowed the child's illness to happen, but whether or not the child has a terminal illness he or she is still a child made in God's image. I believe the important thing is forgiveness of our sins and our salvation through the Lord Jesus Christ, and I believe God can heal if He wills.

Unborn children have body parts at a certain stage, and I cannot see how breaking unborn children's body parts is in any way a moral act. Also, if abortion in many places are illegal from a certain point in pregnancy, why not at the beginning of pregnancy?

If an unborn child is alive, and if fetuses have body parts and can react to stimulus, why would it be permissible to kill him or her?

And if you are a Christian, I would expect that you agree that a child's inherent worth is the same no matter what his or her gender is and no matter whether or not he or she has a disability or illness.

I believe that people having gone through trauma before, during or after pregnancy must be given the support they need, that pregnant mothers should able to have access to health care for her or for her unborn child, and I believe abortion is wrong.

To me, the issue with abortion is that it stops the life of the unborn child, and affects the unborn child as well as the mother.

Out of more than 600 laws of Moses, none comments on abortion. One Mosaic law about miscarriage specifically contradicts the claim that the bible is antiabortion, clearly stating that miscarriage does not involve the death of a human being. If a woman has a miscarriage as the result of a fight, the man who caused it should be fined. If the woman dies, however, the culprit must be killed:

"If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

"And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, Eye for eye, tooth for tooth . . ."--Ex. 21:22-25

The bible orders the death penalty for murder of a human being, but not for the expulsion of a fetus.

When Does Life Begin?

According to the bible, life begins at birth--when a baby draws its first breath. The bible defines life as "breath" in several significant passages, including the story of Adam's creation in Genesis 2:7, when God "breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Jewish law traditionally considers that personhood begins at birth.

Desperate for a biblical basis for their beliefs, some antiabortionists cite obscure passages, usually metaphors or poetic phrasing, such as: "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me." Psalm 51:5 This is sexist, but does nothing other than to invoke original sin. It says nothing about abortion.

The Commandments, Moses, Jesus and Paul ignored every chance to condemn abortion.

Dude the Biblw says nothing about abortion...and abortion has been around for thousands of years..back then they used various herbs to end pregnancy. I am a Christian...I am actually against abortions as a CONVENIENCE!!! Two people have unprotected sex and get pregnant yeah they should carry it. And while I believe a woman should have the right to chose if she has been raped I could see 12 weeks being the stop point. I say that because many rape victims shut down go into shock and have a problem dealing with it! That aside...trying to ban abortion will work about as good as banning teens having sex would work lol. There are legal herbs you can get to cause an abortion, you can go to another state or another country. That's the point its trying to force and impossible to enforce law into effect. This topic has gotten old...we all have an opinion and nothing any off say will change that.

 

[LostMarbels]

Out of more than 600 laws of Moses, none comments on abortion. One Mosaic law about miscarriage specifically contradicts the claim that the bible is antiabortion, clearly stating that miscarriage does not involve the death of a human being. If a woman has a miscarriage as the result of a fight, the man who caused it should be fined. If the woman dies, however, the culprit must be killed:

"If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

"And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, Eye for eye, tooth for tooth . . ."--Ex. 21:22-25

The bible orders the death penalty for murder of a human being, but not for the expulsion of a fetus.

Sorry, but this is incorrect. the word is יָצָא (yaw-tsaw') is translated " depart from her" but it's literal definition is: "to go, or causatively bring out". And the word translated into mischief is אָסוֹן (aw-sone') which means "to hurt or bring harm". So quite literally the NIV has a good translation of this topic:

22 “If people are fighting and hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows. 23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

According to the bible, life begins at birth--when a baby draws its first breath. The bible defines life as "breath" in several significant passages, including the story of Adam's creation in Genesis 2:7, when God "breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Jewish law traditionally considers that personhood begins at birth.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

"the breath of life" נְשָׁמָה (nesh-aw-maw') literal translation is the breath of divine inspiration, intellect or (concretely) a soul, and/or spirit. You see that at the end of the verse. God made man a spiritual being. We have no account of God 'breathing' into all creatures to make them live. The passage has been cited as evidence that a fetus is not a living being. Life is equated with breath throughout the Bible, and, here it is taken out of context, this passage seems to suggest that a person is not living until he or she takes a first breath after birth. However, Genesis Chapter 2 is actually about God's creation of mankind as special and spiritually-aware beings.

Now onto other verses.

At that time Mary got ready and hurried to a town in the hill country of Judea, where she entered Zechariah's home and greeted Elizabeth. When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. In a loud voice she exclaimed: "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. (NIV, Luke 1:39-44)

How did an non living clump of cells acknowledge another clump of non living cells as Lord?

Now the word of the LORD came to me saying, "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations." (NAS, Jeremiah 1:4-5)

Psalm 51:5 This is sexist

So, original sin... or the state of sin in which humanity exists since the fall of man, stemming from Adam and Eve's rebellion in Eden, is sexist?

 

[GodLovesCats]

But is it possible to know if one is pregnant before six weeks?

It depends on a variety of factors. Just because one woman can learn about her pregnancy by then never did or will mean all of them can.

MYTH: Women know they're pregnant within a month

FACT: Some clues don't emerge until after six weeks

There are several reasons why a woman might not know she's pregnant for well over a month.
In the early weeks of pregnancy, some women experience "breakthrough bleeding" -- which can be mistaken for a period

About 20% to 30% of women experience some type of spotting or bleeding in early pregnancy, according to the National Maternity Hospital in Dublin, Ireland. And women with ovarian cysts or hormonal imbalances can have irregular periods, said Dr. Jen Villavicencio, an ob-gyn and fellow with the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists. It can be especially difficult for women with irregular periods to tell if they're pregnant

Debates over anti-abortion laws have raised common myths about abortion. These are the facts - CNN