Alabama governor signs restrictive abortion bill into law as ACLU vows to sue

[Albion]

Lol, I assume no such thing. My point was- this has the potential to affect a lot more people. Additionally, not everyone who considers themselves prolife supports this extremity either.

You are focusing totally on the Alabama law, I think. If so, that is a mistaken way to see what it going on IMHO.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Well they could take a page from Aristotle, vice is found in the extremes, virtue in the balance. Certainly Catholics should take note, then there is Ben Franklin who's compromise proposal was the key to ratifying a Constitution in Philadelphia. I wonder have we forgotten that. I remember when Bill Clinton took office, I was ecstatic watching c-span daily to see what wonders would be worked. Then the partial birth abortion showed up, taking forceps and snapping the babies neck 5 months into the pregnancy, I was strictly prolife after that. Then I decided to do a little research on fetuses and by the eleventh week every organ if functioning, even though it's about the size of an aspirin.

Lungs are an organ... and they don't work until week 23. (Being the size of an aspirin isn't very helpful)

Should we drown babies at birth because they are not alive until they breath on their own? How about leaving them to die because they are not viable outside of the womb yet? Neither extreme is tenable and I really get tired of the extremes.

Well, you and I can discuss it... so long as we leave the incubators out.

 

[mark kennedy]

One of them will likely make it to SCOTUS... there's a difference.



And when those "restrictions" are seen as nothing more than an end run around Roe v Wade, they won't be filling anyone who isn't looking to be fooled.



Considering that abortion is a Constitutional issue, any attempt to outlaw it, no matter how cleverly disguised, is a Constitutional question.

I'm saying that SCOTUS will decide that the lower courts already answer the question satisfactorily, and choose not to hear the case... if a lower court doesn't save them the trouble.

The Supreme Court is a slave to consensus and it's time for a suitable test case. Alabama is being ridiculous and Indiana is little better, but here in Indiana it's expected. I've been watching them do things like this my whole life and theirs is not a suitable test case either.

 

[Albion]

Keep telling yourself that. That would change the landscape significantly.

Certainly it would. That is the hope of those people and it is not an unrealistic one, even if it is viewed with horror by some of our people.

 

[mark kennedy]

Lungs are an organ... and they don't work until week 23. (Being the size of an aspirin isn't very helpful)



Well, you and I can discuss it... so long as we leave the incubators out.

The lungs are under development and they are certainly there. The oxegen is brought in through the umbilical cord, once all these organs are in place no matter how rudimentary as far as I'm concerned it's human.

 

[Albion]

The Supreme Court is a slave to consensus and it's time for a suitable test case. Alabama is being ridiculous and Indiana is little better, but here in Indiana it's expected. I've been watching them do things like this my whole life and theirs is not a suitable test case either.

don't forget that the Court, if it takes up the case (or some other) does not have to say just yes or no. It opens the issue to whatever parts the Court approves or does not, just as with the original (Roe v. Wade).

 

[mark kennedy]

don't forget that the Court, if it takes up the case (or some other) does not have to say just yes or no. It opens the issue to whatever parts the Court approves or does not, just as with the original (Roe v. Wade).

Sure I get all that, maybe it's just time to revisit the whole thing again.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Certainly it would. That is the hope of those people and it is not an unrealistic one, even if it is viewed with horror by some of our people.

If the people hope for judicial activism, they may be disappointed.

 

[keith99]

You misunderstood. I wasn't saying people will move out of Alabama. Wealthy people will go-to another state to have abortions and go back home. Poor people won't. People won't move because they don't care, or the they support the law or they can't afford to.

But people will second guess moving there. National businesses won't open large operations there. States like mine will pass resolutions allowing no state travel to the state and the like. That is what I meant by "economic pariah".

You are right - a lot of people don't care about abortion. But businesses, state governments, and voluntary organizations have to care about PR and no one has to stretch the truth about this law - it is bad news.

The NCAA women's beach volleyball national championship tournament has been in a facility at Muscle Shores Alabama for at least a couple of years. It is scheduled to be there through 2022. For at least the last 2 years the announcers have repeatedly given glowing comments about the facility and the local tourist friendliness.

I would not be surprised if it is not there in 2020. I would be very surprised if it gets a renewal after the current commitment unless things change in Alabama. Since it is extremely likely that both USC and UCLA will be there next year and all but a sure thing that at least one of them will be I would be shocked if there is not some very negative publicity.

If I were running the facility I sure would consider delaying any improvements until I know how this will shake out.

 

[keith99]

I wouldn't count on it. The SCOUTUS rarely overturns itself. Eleven times in its entire history, I think.

That depends a lot on what you mean by overturning itself. Wiki lists several dozen instances.

List of overruled United States Supreme Court decisions - Wikipedia

But often they are instances where subsequent courts went farther down the same road in protecting individual freedom or protecting equal rights.

 

[bekkilyn]

If I may offer you a bit of advice, you might want to back up and not use such a wide broad brush and stop lumping all pro-life advocates into one pile. As I said earlier in response to one of your other posts, I think your assessment is unfair of the entire pro-life movement, which includes people like me. I'm a liberal activist who opposes abortion and yet I not only advocate for the unborn but also I advocate for the children who are born. I can't speak for conservatives, but I objected to immigrant children being placed in detainment camps and separated from their families when Trump did it AND when Obama did it. It's not as if Trump is the first President to ever be firm with immigration.

I do recognize that there are (a minority of) people who are truly pro-life, who are concerned with not only the lives of the unborn, but also the lives of poor people, the lives of minorities, women, immigrants, and even the lives of animals, and act against both warfare and death penalty. These people also strive to create healthy environments for children to be born in as well as education and healthcare.

Shiloh, you should know that by all your various postings on this site that you are NOT a very typical person, and that's a good thing!

I am not personally pro-abortion myself, but I do also recognize the need to keep it both safe and legal and THEN work to create more education and a healthy environment to make the need and desire for abortions very rare. I'm not interested in creating a fear-based punishment system because for one, it isn't very loving, and for two, it just doesn't work.

 

[USincognito]

The Supreme Court has no obligation to do so, that's true, but with a half a dozen states passing similar bills into law lately and all of them winding up in lower courts thanks to the ACLU or Planned Parenthood, there is at least a good chance of it.

At this point there is a lot of stere decisis supporting Roe. It would take some serious activism to throw all that out. And specifically to Alabama, they have a track record of losing cases.
Alabama paid $1.7 million to ACLU on last abortion test case

 

[TLK Valentine]

The lungs are under development and they are certainly there. The oxegen is brought in through the umbilical cord, once all these organs are in place no matter how rudimentary as far as I'm concerned it's human.

In place is not the same as working... just my opinion.

 

[mark kennedy]

In place is not the same as working... just my opinion.

So the baby is not human till they are?

 

[TLK Valentine]

So the baby is not human till they are?

the ability to breathe oxygen is a pretty important requirement.

Besides, would it matter if it were? Our government kills humans all the time...

 

[mark kennedy]

the ability to breathe oxygen is a pretty important requirement.

Besides, would it matter if it were? Our government kills humans all the time...

So if the baby id drwned at birth, is that an abortion? Law enforcement, military and court ordered executions are different then a defensless fetus\infant in the womb. I'm just saying, that's where I decided the only viable compromise is possible. After the partial birth abortion vill I would have had a very different attitude. Which is why I generally avoin abortion threads like the plague. Compromise is impossible.

 

[TLK Valentine]

So if the baby id drwned at birth, is that an abortion? Law enforcement, military and court ordered executions are different then a defensless fetus\infant in the womb. I'm just saying, that's where I decided the only viable compromise is possible. After the partial birth abortion vill I would have had a very different attitude. Which is why I generally avoin abortion threads like the plague. Compromise is impossible.

Not everyone has the same problem with compromise.

Alabama’s antiabortion governor urges respect for life, will oversee a 7th execution

 

[TLK Valentine]

So if the baby id drwned at birth, is that an abortion? Law enforcement, military and court ordered executions are different then a defensless fetus\infant in the womb.

Because they say it is...

Funny thing: once you give the government the power to kill, your opinion regarding who deserves it no longer matters.

 

[mark kennedy]

Because they say it is...

Funny thing: once you give the government the power to kill, your opinion regarding who deserves it no longer matters.

Thats not whats going on and no one gave them that power, they've always had it. At one time it was all about making babies, in 1901 the age of consent was 10-12 and honosexuality was illegal most places. Now it's 16-18 and honosexuality is Constitutionally protected. What changed? A population explosion in the mid-19th century that's what. It's population control. Our morality didn't evolve, the concerns of Euro-american elitists did. Little known fun fact, do you know what the theory of natural selection was based on? Because his name was Malthus

 

[TLK Valentine]

Thats not whats going on and no one gave them that power, they've always had it.

True. I misspoke.

They've always had the power; we gave them the right.

At one time it was all about making babies, in 1901 the age of consent was 10-12 and honosexuality was illegal most places. Now it's 16-18 and honosexuality is Constitutionally protected. What changed? A population explosion in the mid-19th century that's what. It's population control. Our morality didn't evolve, the concerns of Euro-american elitists did.

That counts as evolution. Because once most of us decided that women were more than incubators and sexual receptacles...

We let them vote, (1920)

We decided talking about birth control was no longer legally "obscene," (1936)

We outlawed discriminating against them in the workplace, (1964)

We allowed them no-fault divorce, (1969)

We outlawed discriminating against them in schools, (1972)

One state -- Nebraska -- made it illegal to rape one just because you married one... (1976)

...and Oklahoma and North Carolina brought up the rear to make it all 50 states! (1993)

A pox on those Euro-American elitists! It's all their fault!

Little known fun fact, do you know what the theory of natural selection was based on? Because his name was Malthus

All of it based entirely on one person? How sinister!

Natural selection is evil, therefore it must be false! Thank you for setting me straight!