Al Mohler on Why He Changed His Mind on Women Pastors

desmalia

sounds like somebody's got a case of the mondays
Sep 29, 2006
5,786
943
Canada
Visit site
✟18,512.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married

LargeTrout

Active Member
Jan 7, 2008
220
10
United Kingdom
✟15,429.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats
I just wish Al Mohler would spend less time beating down women and more time preaching to men. I'd probably like him better. Seriously, that dude has not one positive thing to say about women. All of it's negative.

He probably has mother issues and is reading those into his interpretation of the Bible and his Christian life in general. Or maybe he's just generally a misogynist.
 
Upvote 0

leothelioness

Well-Known Member
Apr 4, 2006
10,306
4,234
Southern US
✟112,055.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
I'd say it's the latter.

In one of his articles he went on this huge diatribe about how Mother's Day shouldn't exist, but Father's Day? Nothing negative to say there. Could it be because Mother's Day was created by a known feminist? Yeah, that's his only reason for hating it. *roll eyes*
 
Upvote 0

98cwitr

Lord forgive me
Apr 20, 2006
20,020
3,473
Raleigh, NC
✟449,894.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
we are quick to hold fast the the scriptures that suppress others. We hold loosely to the scriptures that would require us to give up the things that we personally hold dear.

I see people pick apart the verses that say sell all your possessions and pick up your cross, yet we hold fast to the ones that suppress educated women.
 
Upvote 0

MagusAlbertus

custom user title
Aug 25, 2003
1,019
24
Edinburg TX
Visit site
✟1,310.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
"11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent."

A woman shouldn't speak in church; clearly.
"3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth."
Jesus only wants all MEN to be saved.

"15But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety."
women must have children to be saved.


OK!

so either we have to understand that the 2000 year old document that we are reading was inspired by God, perfectly transcribed BUT intended to be understood in the context of who it was it was being written to

OR

God is sending women to hell who are barren and only wants men to be saved... contrary to everything else we know about the nature of God.


The point is:

When you understand that context matters then you start to actually look at Priscilla, an example of a female church leader that was never spoken against; You start to notice that at the time it was the haughtyness of women in the SOCIAL CONTEXT that was problematic, but that women were allowed to hold position and authority and teach elsewhere without bringing about rebuke from Paul.

So what is it folks? does the bible contradict itself regarding who God wants to be saved and how it happens OR do we need context and cultural understanding in our interpretation of scripture?
 
Upvote 0

98cwitr

Lord forgive me
Apr 20, 2006
20,020
3,473
Raleigh, NC
✟449,894.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
I also believe this was contextual to only the culture at the time. Women were not allowed to be educated and were mostly illiterate. Therefore most of their contributions were belligerent and ignorant because they were not capable of comprehending the Word of Scripture. I can see why Paul would say this to Timothy.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

desmalia

sounds like somebody's got a case of the mondays
Sep 29, 2006
5,786
943
Canada
Visit site
✟18,512.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
"11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent."

A woman shouldn't speak in church; clearly.
"3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth."
Jesus only wants all MEN to be saved.

"15But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety."
women must have children to be saved.
Context is vital, indeed. We know that "saved" in this instant must not refer to salvation because that clearly contradicts the rest of Scripture. The passage itself is referring to teaching, so what that means is that "saved" here refers to woman's opportunity to teach. And in this case it means that woman has the mighty responsibility and privilege of teaching the next generation of both men and women - her children. It's really not complicated.

As for this idea of being "suppressed" or oppressed or whatever, I don't know what you guys are talking about. My life is for God's glory, not about having feminist "rights". And I'm infinitely freer because of it. :)
 
Upvote 0

leothelioness

Well-Known Member
Apr 4, 2006
10,306
4,234
Southern US
✟112,055.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Context is vital, indeed. We know that "saved" in this instant must not refer to salvation because that clearly contradicts the rest of Scripture. The passage itself is referring to teaching, so what that means is that "saved" here refers to woman's opportunity to teach. And in this case it means that woman has the mighty responsibility and privilege of teaching the next generation of both men and women - her children. It's really not complicated.
You make a good point. I think in some ways, women have a greater role and capacity for teaching since we're the ones who mainly do the child-rearing.
 
Upvote 0

MagusAlbertus

custom user title
Aug 25, 2003
1,019
24
Edinburg TX
Visit site
✟1,310.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
"3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth."

Interesting how you ignored both the main point of my quoting this AND how it directly contradicts other "context necessary" beliefs some here may hold.

What isn't complex is that you're happy to add 'context' where it suits you and ignore historical fact when it doesn't.
 
Upvote 0

mlqurgw

Well-Known Member
Aug 19, 2005
5,828
540
69
kain tuck ee
✟8,844.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
So according to some here we are to take the culture of the time the New Testament was written and throw out all that doesn't aply to our day? Nonsense! If the New Testament was written by the inspiration of the Spirit it trancends cultures and time. What it says applies to us now as much as it did then. Otherwise what you are left with is a Bible that can't be trusted and as a result we are all without any hope. Either the undeniable teaching of the Scriptures is that women have a role but not as pastors having authority over men or we can just take what we like form the Scriptures and tear out the rest. If that is the case you might as well just rip the whole of the Old Testament from the Bible for it says many things we might not like. :doh:
 
  • Like
Reactions: PrincetonGuy
Upvote 0
D

dies-l

Guest
How do we decide what is specific to a time and place and what is not? It is well-known that culture largely shaped general attitudes in the first century, concerning women. It is also well known that Paul wrote to specific people and groups in a specific time and a specific place. Why is it so hard to accept that Paul's writings might have been influenced by his own cultural context? Why do we accept that Paul's command that "slaves obey [their] masters" is product of culture, but we don't accept the possibility that Paul's writings on the role of women might also have been culturally influenced and that cultural context might be an important exegetical consideration? Or, do you all (those of you who think that the issue is so open and shut), also believe that the underground railroad was an act of sinfulness?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

mlqurgw

Well-Known Member
Aug 19, 2005
5,828
540
69
kain tuck ee
✟8,844.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
How do we decide what is specific to a time and place and what is not? It is well-known that culture largely shaped general attitudes in the first century, concerning women. It is also well known that Paul wrote to specific people and groups in a specific time and a specific place. Why is it so hard to accept that Paul's writings might have been influenced by his own cultural context? Why do we accept that Paul's command that "slaves obey [their] masters" is product of culture, but we don't accept the possibility that Paul's writings on the role of women might also have been culturally influenced and that cultural context might be an important exegetical consideration? Or, do you all (those of you who think that the issue is so open and shut), also believe that the underground railroad was an act of sinfulness?
Why is it that you must resort to the slavery issue when you have no other argument? I am not going to debate slavery with you but be assured that the slavery that Paul was speaking of is not the slavery that was abolished in the 1860's. The slavery that was practiced in the Scriptures was slavery from debt not from one group of men warring against and enslaving others. I believe Paul's admonition holds as true today as it did in that day. Also I am quite convinced that the Spirit didn't inspire those words just for that time. Your argument is a red herring. One has nothing to do with the other. The issue actualy boils down to the inspiration of the Scriptures. Either they are inspired or they aren't, there is no middle ground. If they are then we are bound to follow them. If they aren't then we can not trust any part of them.
 
Upvote 0

MatthewDiscipleofGod

Senior Veteran
Feb 6, 2002
2,992
267
47
Minnesota
Visit site
✟20,802.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Amen. :thumbsup:

Why is it that you must resort to the slavery issue when you have no other argument? I am not going to debate slavery with you but be assured that the slavery that Paul was speaking of is not the slavery that was abolished in the 1860's. The slavery that was practiced in the Scriptures was slavery from debt not from one group of men warring against and enslaving others. I believe Paul's admonition holds as true today as it did in that day. Also I am quite convinced that the Spirit didn't inspire those words just for that time. Your argument is a red herring. One has nothing to do with the other. The issue actualy boils down to the inspiration of the Scriptures. Either they are inspired or they aren't, there is no middle ground. If they are then we are bound to follow them. If they aren't then we can not trust any part of them.
 
Upvote 0
D

dies-l

Guest
Why is it that you must resort to the slavery issue when you have no other argument? I am not going to debate slavery with you but be assured that the slavery that Paul was speaking of is not the slavery that was abolished in the 1860's. The slavery that was practiced in the Scriptures was slavery from debt not from one group of men warring against and enslaving others. I believe Paul's admonition holds as true today as it did in that day. Also I am quite convinced that the Spirit didn't inspire those words just for that time. Your argument is a red herring. One has nothing to do with the other. The issue actualy boils down to the inspiration of the Scriptures. Either they are inspired or they aren't, there is no middle ground. If they are then we are bound to follow them. If they aren't then we can not trust any part of them.

I am not debating the slavery issue either. I assume (and hope) that we agree on that issue. What I am attempting to point out is that your interpretative methodology allows you to recognize, in one instance, that Paul's writings were a product of his culture. Yet, you insist that those of us who are okay with female leaders and even pastors are wrong for doing so in another instance.

Nor am I debating with you the inspiration of Scriptures. Scripture is inspired by God; I don't doubt that. However, Scripture needs to be interpreted to be applied. We call this process hermeneutics, which begins with exegesis. What this boils down to is not about the inspiration of Scripture (I think we both agree on the inspiration of Scripture), but on how Scripture ought to be exegeted and applied to our lives. I believe, as do most biblical scholars (liberal, conservative, mainline and evangelical), that proper exegesis must consider things like historical context, literary structure, genre, and other factors beyond the plain language of the text.

How we digest context and other extra-textual factors is certainly a valid subject of debate, and this is largely what separates liberal and conservative schools of theology. But, we cannot even get to this conversation when one side accuses anyone who disagrees with their position of doubting the inspiration of Scripture or throwing around allegations of logical fallacies that are not at all present.

My point in the post above was this: Many of the passages that address the role of women in the family and in the church also address the role of slavery. Contemporary Christians (even many conservative and fundamentalist Christians) have no problem addressing Paul's command to slaves to obey their masters as a reflection of a specific element of Paul's time and place. (BTW, Paul's command here has little or nothing to do with how the institution of slavery was conducted, and very much, if not everything, to do with the role of the First Century Church and individual believers within the world at large, but that is a topic for another debate). However, sometimes, these same people will not even entertain the very same exegetical concepts in dealing with Paul's teaching on the role of women. I am simply trying to engage in conversation about why this is.
 
Upvote 0

DeaconDean

γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον
Jul 19, 2005
22,183
2,677
61
Gastonia N.C. (Piedmont of N.C.)
✟100,334.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
So according to some here we are to take the culture of the time the New Testament was written and throw out all that doesn't aply to our day? Nonsense! If the New Testament was written by the inspiration of the Spirit it trancends cultures and time. What it says applies to us now as much as it did then. Otherwise what you are left with is a Bible that can't be trusted and as a result we are all without any hope. Either the undeniable teaching of the Scriptures is that women have a role but not as pastors having authority over men or we can just take what we like form the Scriptures and tear out the rest. If that is the case you might as well just rip the whole of the Old Testament from the Bible for it says many things we might not like. :doh:

Amen!

IF we accept that the scriptures truly are the "θεόπνευστος" (theh-op'-nyoo-stos) "inspired by God", and scriptures also state:

"I am the LORD, I change not" -Mal. 3:6 (KJV)

If God does not change, then does that mean that His word will?

"I trow not." -Lk. 17:9 (KJV)

But according to some, it does, for it must be interpreted in light of circumstances today.

If the bible meant what it said some 2000 years ago, it still means the same today.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

DeaconDean

γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον
Jul 19, 2005
22,183
2,677
61
Gastonia N.C. (Piedmont of N.C.)
✟100,334.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I just love the way people try to justify women pastors.

I love to hear how they go around the qualifications given for that role.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
Upvote 0