Age of the earth?

[DeaconDean]

I'm a hardcore fundie who has gotten into several fights with liberals over theological points. But I cannot deny the overwhelming scientific evidence which shows that the earth is billions of years old. That however being said does not affect my view that scripture is a historically accurate document and I don't see how a theistic evolutionist can reconcile bible inerrancy with their view. I do know of a friend who is a mathematician who holds to both scripture as the inerrant word of God and evolution as a fact, but seems to hold the dichotomy in polar opposite views. He just states that both scripture is a fact and that evolution is a fact but refuses to solve the tensions between his view when scripture makes it more than clear that God made one man and one woman....there is no mention of anyone evolving.

Well put, but let me also add that the Bible does indeed contain history, but it was not written for history facts. If that was the case, then why wasn't the Bible compiled in historical order rather than topical, or rather, realitivity in nature?

Like I said, I'm not so concerned with the creational aspect of the scriptures as I am with how the scriptures from Genesis to Revelation point to a much, much, greater person. Jesus Christ and God's plan of salvation. To me that is a greater concern for the world at large than whether or not it was six literal days in creation or six thousand years.

So I ask you, what is the more important message of the Bible:

God created the world in six literal days;

or:

God sent His Son, Jesus Christ, to die for you so you can be reconciled to God and have eternal life?

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Izdaari Eristikon]

you guys still miss the point.

Who cares if it was six days?

Who cares if it was six thousand years?

Who cares if it was six million years?

What is the whole context of the creation all about?

The omnipotence of God. To show forth His power and glory. That's it.

What does the creation account have to do with salvation?

Nothing.

To me personally, it does not bother me to know that it took six milli seconds, or six minutes, six hours, six days, six weeks, six months, six years, six thousand years, or even six million years, that don't concern me in the least. That theological question and debate is way down on my list of priorities. One day I'll stand in front of my Lord, and I can ask, or perhaps I can ask that question around the Lord's supper in heaven. Perhaps I'll casually ask, by the way Lord, how long did take to create the world?

Creationalism is way, way down on my list of things to debate.

I'd rather spend my time learning to be more like my Lord.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Dean, I love your explanation on this one, and I totally agree. All that matters to me that is that God created everything. Once we have that down, how and when He did it is no big deal. Sure, I'm curious, and when we're there, I'll ask too (but it's probably in the FAQ).

 

[Nadiine]

Dean, I love your explanation on this one, and I totally agree. All that matters to me that is that God created everything. Once we have that down, how and when He did it is no big deal. Sure, I'm curious, and when we're there, I'll ask too (but it's probably in the FAQ).

I'd imagine the ones who care would be Atheists & agnostics? If it could be proven scientifically?

I'm not positive, but I think these types of proof go more towards non believers than believers. Then again, there are many Christians who might feel it's important to substantiate the Bible's account of Creation?

I don't doubt that it probly doesn't matter either way to at least 1/2 of Christians - just that God is given credit for Creating all.
I think the bigger issue is proving it's not thru evolution if anything.

 

[marktheblake]

What does the creation account have to do with salvation?

It matters to me.

I had always been a doubting Thomas. I often questioned the validity of the Gospels (to myself), what if it was just a story and JC was a nice bloke, etc. It was my worldly view (ie science, evolution, dinosaurs) that caused me to reflect on the Old Testament as myths, so if they were not true, what is.

It was my discovery of 'Creation-ism' that validated for me the Genesis account as fact, which in turn validates the Gospels, and has removed any doubts that I had.

I know plenty of people who could'nt give two hoots about Old Age or Young Age earth, and it doesnt impact on their faith at all, and thats fantastic, because it means they never had to struggle like i did.

 

[MatthewDiscipleofGod]

It matters to me.

I had always been a doubting Thomas. I often questioned the validity of the Gospels (to myself), what if it was just a story and JC was a nice bloke, etc. It was my worldly view (ie science, evolution, dinosaurs) that caused me to reflect on the Old Testament as myths, so if they were not true, what is.

It was my discovery of 'Creation-ism' that validated for me the Genesis account as fact, which in turn validates the Gospels, and has removed any doubts that I had.

I know plenty of people who could'nt give two hoots about Old Age or Young Age earth, and it doesnt impact on their faith at all, and thats fantastic, because it means they never had to struggle like i did.

Your post reminds me of:

If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

If we can't trust the history in the Bible why in our right mind would we trust the spiritual? We don't have the convenience to pick and choose, at least if we want to be honest with ourselves.

 

[Nadiine]

Your post reminds me of:

If we can't trust the history in the Bible why in our right mind would we trust the spiritual? We don't have the convenience to pick and choose, at least if we want to be honest with ourselves.

strong point

 

[ahiggs]

you guys still miss the point.

Who cares if it was six days?

Who cares if it was six thousand years?

Who cares if it was six million years?

What is the whole context of the creation all about?

The omnipotence of God. To show forth His power and glory. That's it.

What does the creation account have to do with salvation?

Nothing.

To me personally, it does not bother me to know that it took six milli seconds, or six minutes, six hours, six days, six weeks, six months, six years, six thousand years, or even six million years, that don't concern me in the least. That theological question and debate is way down on my list of priorities. One day I'll stand in front of my Lord, and I can ask, or perhaps I can ask that question around the Lord's supper in heaven. Perhaps I'll casually ask, by the way Lord, how long did take to create the world?

Creationalism is way, way down on my list of things to debate.

I'd rather spend my time learning to be more like my Lord.

God Bless

Till all are one.

in general i agree with you, but the only problem i do have is that if it took longer than a day (millions or billions of years) there would have been death before sin, we would have had plants that lived with out insects to pollinate them for a couple of million, billion years

 

[salida]

The darwin evolutionist use the million year old earth tactic to help their farce it seems- which is things evolving from nothing. Normally, these are athiest, agnostic type scientists. I suggest visiting http://www.creationworldview.org/articles_view.asp?id=53 and www.reasons.org, http://www.creationism.org/heinze/EvolutionReligion.htm and visiting CRI (Christian Research Institute). Hopefully, this will help as a start.

I'm a scientist and believe in microevolution and some macroevolution.

 

[Izdaari Eristikon]

It matters to me.

I had always been a doubting Thomas. I often questioned the validity of the Gospels (to myself), what if it was just a story and JC was a nice bloke, etc. It was my worldly view (ie science, evolution, dinosaurs) that caused me to reflect on the Old Testament as myths, so if they were not true, what is.

It was my discovery of 'Creation-ism' that validated for me the Genesis account as fact, which in turn validates the Gospels, and has removed any doubts that I had.

I know plenty of people who could'nt give two hoots about Old Age or Young Age earth, and it doesnt impact on their faith at all, and thats fantastic, because it means they never had to struggle like i did.

I'm sort of with you in mirror image. I have not been able to believe YEC since I was a kid. It was the discovery that I didn't have to believe it to be a Christian, that allowed me to become one. It wasn't a sufficient condition (it also took lots of apologetics), but it was a necessary one. I also cannot believe in a-theistic evolution anymore. That leaves OEC and theistic evolution as the remaining possibilities, and between them I lean toward OEC. I don't much care which of them is true, though of course I'm curious. YMMV.

Now that I am a Christian, I can accept YEC as a possibility, though having to swallow YEC as part of the package would've kept me from becoming one.

Let's break down the possibilities, and see what impact it would have on my faith if they were absolutely, beyond any doubt, proven true:

• YEC -- I'd be shocked and amazed, but nothing would change for me.
• OEC -- No change.
• Theistic evolution -- No change.
• Atheistic evolution -- Not possible to prove. You could prove evolution, but you couldn't disprove that God was behind it.

 

[desmalia]

I'm sort of with you in mirror image. I have not been able to believe YEC since I was a kid. It was the discovery that I didn't have to believe it to be a Christian, that allowed me to become one. It wasn't a sufficient condition (it also took lots of apologetics), but it was a necessary one. I also cannot believe in a-theistic evolution anymore. That leaves OEC and theistic evolution as the remaining possibilities, and between them I lean toward OEC. I don't much care which of them is true, though of course I'm curious. YMMV.

Now that I am a Christian, I can accept YEC as a possibility, though having to swallow YEC as part of the package would've kept me from becoming one.

Let's break down the possibilities, and see what impact it would have on my faith if they were absolutely, beyond any doubt, proven true:

• YEC -- I'd be shocked and amazed, but nothing would change for me.
• OEC -- No change.
• Theistic evolution -- No change.
• Atheistic evolution -- Not possible to prove. You could prove evolution, but you couldn't disprove that God was behind it.

There is also the "Gap Theory".

 

[Izdaari Eristikon]

There is also the "Gap Theory".

Aye, there's that, and it seems plausible enough. I was considering it as part of the OEC category.

 

[DeaconDean]

It matters to me.

I had always been a doubting Thomas. I often questioned the validity of the Gospels (to myself), what if it was just a story and JC was a nice bloke, etc. It was my worldly view (ie science, evolution, dinosaurs) that caused me to reflect on the Old Testament as myths, so if they were not true, what is.

It was my discovery of 'Creation-ism' that validated for me the Genesis account as fact, which in turn validates the Gospels, and has removed any doubts that I had.

I know plenty of people who could'nt give two hoots about Old Age or Young Age earth, and it doesnt impact on their faith at all, and thats fantastic, because it means they never had to struggle like i did.

Again, what does the creation account have to with the salvation process?

In the long run, nothing other than to show that Jesus Christ was the means in which God brought everything into existence. (John 1:3)

Still, which is the more important message:

God created the earth in six days;

or, God sent His Son, Jesus Christ, to die for you in your place?

Lots of people struggle with the creation account. But that is the legacy left to us when it was ruled that "Darwinism" must be taught as an alternative to creationalism.

Can you show exactlly what a "leviathan" is?

Can you show me the bones of a "unicorn?"

And even though the Bible mentions these animals, what does that have to do with salvation as provided by God in His Son Jesus Christ?

We walk by faith friends. Not proof.

By faith we take the creation accounts "as is".

And it still boils down to the fact that no-one, not one single theologian, one single scientist, not me, not you, can prove beyond a reasonable doubt, that the "day" spoken of in the Genesis accounts of creation were either six literal 24 hour days, or six one thousand year days.

Because absolute "dogmatism" in this matter, takes away from the omnipotence of God.

If you are absolutely dogmatic about the first day being a literal 24 hour day, then God had to have time to bring something about. Which means that He isn't omnipotent (all-powerful).

The same point goes with the 6000 year day theory.

If God is omnipotent, would it be beyond His capacity to simply speak things into being and they happen in a fraction of a second?

Evidently not according to some on this thread.

The bottom line of it all is, we don't know how long that first day was. Period.

And from scripture, all we can say for sure is that on the first day ever in recorded history, we know what happened.

Anything other than that is nothing more than conjecture.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[marktheblake]

Again, what does the creation account have to with the salvation process?

I responded with why I cared, I don't disagree with what is more important.

If you are absolutely dogmatic about the first day being a literal 24 hour day, then God had to have time to bring something about. Which means that He isn't omnipotent (all-powerful).

God exists outside of space and time and therefore is not limited by the constraints of time.

 

[DeaconDean]

I responded with why I cared, I don't disagree with what is more important.



God exists outside of space and time and therefore is not limited by the constraints of time.

Ok my friend, I grow weary of this. But you guys want to limit God to time in that it took 24 hours, or 1000 years to bring something into being. This is not a God who is outside time and space. This is not a God who is omnipotent.

A God who needed 24 hours, or 1000 years to bring into being the very things of which make this world and establish the boundries of everything?!? This does not sound like the God of Job 38-39. That He could not have spoken it, and it suddenly came into existence that very second?!?

And then your gonna have the gaw to say that God needed 24 hours or 6000 years to create all that is?

This surely isn't the God that is described in Job 38-39.

Now to another matter.

My friend, there is something you should be aware of.

Please read the rules for the Fundy area. You are not a Fundamentalist, therefore, you should not be arguing in the general area.

You may post fellowship and/or encouragement type posts, but you cannot be discussing/debating here.

Since everybody is finding fault with my reasoning, I shall not venture an opinion in this thread again.

Continue on with your discussion.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[desmalia]

Ok my friend, I grow weary of this. But you guys want to limit God to time in that it took 24 hours, or 1000 years to bring something into being. This is not a God who is outside time and space. This is not a God who is omnipotent.

A God who needed 24 hours, or 1000 years to bring into being the very things of which make this world and establish the boundries of everything?!? This does not sound like the God of Job 38-39. That He could not have spoken it, and it suddenly came into existence that very second?!?

And then your gonna have the gaw to say that God needed 24 hours or 6000 years to create all that is?

This surely isn't the God that is described in Job 38-39.


...

Since everybody is finding fault with my reasoning, I shall not venture an opinion in this thread again.

Continue on with your discussion.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Dean! Brother! I don't disagree with anything you're saying!
I agree that whether the earth is young or old, it really has no bearing on my faith. God made everything in His time according to His plan. No constraints were placed on Him whatsoever as that is completely impossible. And certainly this is not an issue to break fellowship over either. I am YEC and my husband is OEC, yet we've never had a dispute over it. There is no need. We recognize God's omnipotence and enjoy exploring whatever we can of that with our puny human minds.

However, I think it is healthy to discuss these things with one another. For some people these issues are something of importance to them that they need to work through. It's a process. The faith of each believer grows in unique ways (again, according to His plan). True, it is absolutely a horrible shame for anyone to become obsessed with the issue or to base their beliefs on it (as in, well if God didn't make the earth in literal 24 hr days, I won't be a Christian anymore). Such an attitude is severely misguided. But I would hope that it's a subject we as believers can discuss rationally and with curiosity.

You are absolutely right that God is not limited by space, time, human will, powers of darkness, or anything else. He is all powerful. The universe is in existence because He decided for it to be. And we must be careful never to try and place him in a box. There is so much our little brains have not been given access to yet. But for now, let us gaze upward and do what we can with the brains He has given us to discover more of His nature. Let's explore what He has given us in His word to know and serve Him better, not obsessing over what we can not yet know, but exploring and enjoying what we do know. People obsess over all kinds of things like angels, end time prophesies, etc., and that is not good at all. But that does not mean we should never discuss these things either. And Dean, you have a lot of great things to say here, so if your patience permits, I hope you will continue in this thread.

 

[-~Truth_N_Trust~-]

well, I think the creation account does have something to do with salvation, and more than just Jesus did it. more than just God is omnipotent.
Dean, I think you are very right, in saying that we can't possibly say that it was 24hr days exactly, you are very right in saying that God isn't limited by time.
But, I think that the bible is clear, and we have to take the creation account seriously, because Genesis has serious theological considerations that are relevant to salvation (one reason why I can't accept theistic evolution). I don't think this is limiting God, but rather accepting by faith what He has given us in His word. I don't know if it is literal 6 X 24hrs, or if that is the language God used to describe the indescribable to us, but I do know that what is written is written - that is what I will trust by faith knowing that God is above all my conceivable understanding.

 

[Nadiine]

I agree that it's important, my issue is how important and how relevant to salvation are these specific details on timing.

We live in a day and age where we have massive amounts of information (knowledge/findings) and technology. But what information/tech. did people in the 16th or 17th 18th centuries have to form their opinions on the timing of Creation?
Very little I'd say. How did it affect their salvations or how important was it to know the day or hour of God creating?

Imho, it ultimately falls to either believing God created it all or He didn't.
We can definitely be victorious in our Christian walks if we don't know how long it took God to create it all - timeframe.

 

[rcorlew]

There are some very important things that I have not found in the Bible and are vital to the understanding of creationism.

First, let me state that I am a young Earth, Literal creationist, however there are some things that the Bible does not say, for instance, that we (our Earth) are the only things that God has created, and that God is not still creating other worlds and or galaxies, He remains silent on this, so to assume one way or another is pure speculation. Also there are many transliterations within modern translations of the Bible, mainly dealing with problems with measurements, for instance "day" "hour" "month" are all the same word in hebrew, also the translation of "heavens", understand that until the late 18th century, heavens was the word used to describe "atmospere". The common versions of the Bible are based off of translations written during the 16th century, well within that very timeframe. So understanding that the Genesis Creation refers to our physical Earth and it's atmosphere would allow people to view the creation with a more literal approach.

Second, there are certain measurable mathematical truths, the speed of light remains constant throughout space/time until acted upon by a greater force than the energy in the light wave, this is measurable and does not change. Therefore, the light form distant stars really does take millions of years to get to earth, that does not mean that the Earth is millions of years old, it just means that the light that reached earth is millions of years old.

Now bear with me, I do have a good point.

Third, I do not have the exact number at hand, but it was in the order of the probability of evolution was the magnitude of 1 in 105log. For those who do not understand that, it would be the same as telling someone to find a grain of sand that you threw somewhere on the earth and having them retrieve the correct one without knowing where to start, neither of which has any likelihood of happening. Why is evolutionism important to the young earth theory, glad you asked. Old earth theories did not appear until the prevalence of evolutionistic theorum. As the theory became more accepted in the late 19th century and coupled with the surge in archaelogy at the same time, scientists began cyclical dating of rock strata, dating fossils by the perceived age of the rock they are located in, and then dating the rock by the percieved age of the fossils located in it. How can that logic be accepted?

Last, one of the most prolific scientific principles needs to be followed, Occam's razor dictates "All other things being equal, the simplest solution is the best." So which is easier I beg you, believing a book that can answer the question in short order, or believing and ever changing scientific theory based on a pobability of astoinding inprobability.

My belief is this, God created the earth in 6 literal days, however He is not done with creation. I believe that He continues to create worlds for His pleasure. But that is just my theory, but my two main points remain, you cannot prove the age of one thing by accepting the fact that something acting upon it (light from stars) is a certain age,and that determining the age of rocks without taking into account all factors in the formation and degradation of that rock, the law of chaos comes to mind which is the theory used to try and debunk creationism, which when applied to evolutionistic theory debunks that theory rather quickly.

 

[KahanistChristianNoahide]

I am not sure that the age of the Earth is all that relevant, whether it was 24hr days, or longer, it does not change the fact that He is the Creator. God made the world, and for He so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son who died on the Cross, so that we might be saved. That is what is important to me.

 

[nzguy]

There are a bunch of websites on creationism... a huge one is Creationism.org.. that has heaps of relevant information.

I am a young earth creationist.. not just because the bible says so.. but also because there are way too many holes in Evo theory for it to be a sound theory.. I believe Creationsim fits the fossil record the best.

trees standing up right in rock layers that are supposed to be millions of years old? Whatever- they can't be millions of years old- the trees would be in pieces and completely fragmentary at least to be in millions of years of layers.

Fish in mass layers of sudden death? - Millions of years doing this? No way! Sudden catastrophe (eg FLOOD) ..

it goes on and on

anyway.. yeah good sources are out there for sound scientific information supporting a young Earth

also one approach to take with people is if they believe in God starting the process and then evolution taking over.. challenge them about who Jesus Christ is.. because Jesus died for our sins.. but evo theory would claim that men are going toward perfection.. evolving toward something perfect.. where Jesus knows we are sinful and headed toward destruction..that is why He died for us.

from

Nzguy