Agape and Eros

[Carl Emerson]

Hi there,

Reading CS Lewis the 4 Loves he stresses that Agape with believers should always underpin Eros.

I notice that animals and humans both experience Eros.

I notice that Eros has no mention in the NT and I also looked into the LXX and found nothing. I admit I may have missed something in the search.

I am trying to work this through and at this point I don't think Agape and Eros can co-habit...

I think Christian marriages should be underpinned by Agape in every area, but it is commonly held that it is healthy for Eros to dominate. Given the 50% of Christian marriages fall apart, I wonder if this is part of the reason.

I think the higher love from God will in fact yield a much deeper satisfaction in marriage than the self centered Eros.

I think Satan hates the fact that man is made in God's image and not the angels. He wants to prove to God that man is nothing more than an animal - I think this is a theme throughout Job.
Satans influence then will elicit animal like behavior.

Forgive me if I am wrong - can we explore this together?

 

[Sabertooth]

I notice that Eros has no mention in the NT...

Paul was euphemistic about the subject, but he still spoke to it.

"Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality,

let each man have his own wife, and
let each woman have her own husband.​

Let the husband render to his wife the affection due her, and

likewise also the wife to her husband.​

The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does.
And likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does.

Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time,
that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer;
and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control." 1 Corinthians 7:2-5 NKJV

Those verses do not work in the context of agape, though agape should be fundamental. They only makes sense in the context of righteous eros.

"...Now the body is not for sexual immorality but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body.
And God both raised up the Lord and will also raise us up by His power.

Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ?
Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot?

Certainly not!​

Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her?
For 'the two,' He says, 'shall become one flesh.' ” 1 Corinthians 6:13-16 NKJV

Again, "becoming one flesh" is peculiar to eros, not agape. (If that happened everywhere we expressed agape, things would get really awkward very quickly.

)

"Becoming one flesh" is a good thing inside of Edenic marriage. It is a bad thing anywhere else.

 

[Johan_1988]

Totally agree with you man. The problem is in general Christian's have allowed the world to influence them instead of them influencing the world. That's why we see more Eros love in marriages instead of Agape love. Too much self centredness these day's.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Paul was euphemistic about the subject, but he still spoke to it.

"Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality,

let each man have his own wife, and
let each woman have her own husband.​

Let the husband render to his wife the affection due her, and

likewise also the wife to her husband.​

The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does.
And likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does.

Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time,
that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer;
and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control." 1 Corinthians 7:2-5 NKJV

Those verses do not work in the context of agape, though agape should be fundamental. They only makes sense in the context of righteous eros.

"...Now the body is not for sexual immorality but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body.
And God both raised up the Lord and will also raise us up by His power.

Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ?
Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot?

Certainly not!​

Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her?
For 'the two,' He says, 'shall become one flesh.' ” 1 Corinthians 6:13-16 NKJV

Again, "becoming one flesh" is peculiar to eros, not agape. (If that happened everywhere we expressed agape, things would get really awkward very quickly.

)

"Becoming one flesh" is a good thing inside of Edenic marriage. It is a bad thing anywhere else.

I could be wrong but 1 Cor 7 does not really address the issue I raised, Love is not mentioned.

The word affection is not in the Greek.

I think becoming one flesh is much more profound when it is in Agape.

Agape is selfless.

Selfishness is never satisfied.

 

[mlepfitjw]

Carl, As believers in the Lord Yeshua, when we are informed that we transformed by the renewing of our mind. When we believe with faith, on Christ we are a new creation. We are given the spirit by God, which doesn't make us weak or fearful.

Though now with this on the table, we still have our inherent nature of sinful flesh. (I don't believe anything has to do with Satan anymore), I believe that between our old man that is of the flesh, and our new man that is of the spirit fight amongst each other.

What can we say to someone who professes Christ, and are having issues where they are failing to love their spouse as an example?

We could explain to them that our flesh is the one that causes us to sin, where our faith and believing as a Christian we can not sin.

However, the only option to overcome the flesh of sin / self - centered or whatever is to be non-judging, patient, tolerant, and explain to the person that is the new creation by the spirit who you are? Or your former fleshly nature that is going to die and go to the grave?

There are scriptures that talk about how marriages looks like, and in my view though I haven't had a girlfriend in a long while because of how damaging I was to women growing up, or ever had a wife.

Is for two people to come together, love each other as love (1 Corinthians 13) is defined in the bible, to support one another in their passions they enjoy and like to do, it is also about supporting each other when times get rough, like say someone loses job, or even gets hurt and is down and out, and they should be having some type of enjoyment from each other so things do not get to dull, and remind them in encouragement of how much they mean to you.

Just some thoughts.

Scriptures used, Romans 12:2, Romans 7:14-24, 2 Corinthians 5:17, John 3:34, 2 Timothy 1:7

 

[Sabertooth]

Both of the previous verses express sexual passion, i.e. eros. It is a staple in Edenic marriage (on top of agape).

 

[Carl Emerson]

Both of the previous verses express sexual passion, i.e. eros. It is a staple in Edenic marriage (on top of agape).

I don't see that in the Greek. There is significantly NO mention of Eros in the NT. If Paul meant Eros he would have used the word - surely.

 

[Sabertooth]

Let the husband render to his wife the affection due her, and
likewise also the wife to her husband.

From Strong's Concordance,
2133. eunoia yoo'-noy-ah from the same as 2132; kindness; euphemistically, conjugal duty:--benevolence, good will.

Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time,...

650. apostereo ap-os-ter-eh'-o from 575 and stereo (to deprive); to despoil:--defraud, destitute, kept back by fraud.
(Agape would not be adversely affected by fasting & prayer.)

Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her?

2853. kollao kol-lah'-o from kolla ("glue"); to glue, i.e. (passively or reflexively) to stick (figuratively):--cleave, join (self), keep company.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Yes, kindness, loyalty, good will, affection, nothing of Eros in the text.

 

[Sabertooth]

Yes, kindness, loyalty, good will, affection, nothing of Eros in the text.

And, euphemistically-speaking, conjugal duty. Why isn't that considered as a synonym to eros?

"Cleaved" [joined] in chapter six certainly is.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Basically because Eros is about self gratification.

 

[Sabertooth]

Basically because Eros is about self gratification.

I think that you are defining it too narrowly.

 

[Carl Emerson]

OK this is the issue I would like to explore...

Eros redeemed - is that the aim? Is that possible before marriage ? How would that look???

Agape - is that in fact not Eros redeemed or a different Love altogether???

Remember we are pummeled by so called 'Love' through entertainment and advertising and at best our feelings about it are seriously warped, this reflects in the divorce rate.

I am guessing that the place of Agape in marriage is little understood and folks commonly carry lust into marriage thinking it is love thanks largely to TV. So Eros reigns and we wonder why things fall apart.

 

[eleos1954]

Hi there,

Reading CS Lewis the 4 Loves he stresses that Agape with believers should always underpin Eros.

I notice that animals and humans both experience Eros.

I notice that Eros has no mention in the NT and I also looked into the LXX and found nothing. I admit I may have missed something in the search.

I am trying to work this through and at this point I don't think Agape and Eros can co-habit...

I think Christian marriages should be underpinned by Agape in every area, but it is commonly held that it is healthy for Eros to dominate. Given the 50% of Christian marriages fall apart, I wonder if this is part of the reason.

I think the higher love from God will in fact yield a much deeper satisfaction in marriage than the self centered Eros.

I think Satan hates the fact that man is made in God's image and not the angels. He wants to prove to God that man is nothing more than an animal - I think this is a theme throughout Job.
Satans influence then will elicit animal like behavior.

Forgive me if I am wrong - can we explore this together?

Eros was the Greek god of love, or more precisely, passionate and physical desire. Without warning he selects his targets and forcefully strikes at their hearts, bringing confusion and irrepressible feelings or, in the words of Hesiod, he 'loosens the limbs and weakens the mind'

Eros - Wikipedia

so no Eros is not the type of love to have ... whether inside or outside of marriage.

Agape

Agape (Ancient Greek ἀγάπη, agapē) is a Greco-Christian term referring to love, "the highest form of love, charity" and "the love of God for man and of man for God"

Agape - Wikipedia

If in marriage both have the mindset of the attributes of agape love first then .... the intimacy between the two is respectful and enjoyable .... ie an expression of their agape love with one another (not driven by physical desire) ... ie not just having sex. It is not self-centered.

It is the Eros mindset that causes problems within marriages.

I think Satan hates the fact that man is made in God's image and not the angels. He wants to prove to God that man is nothing more than an animal - I think this is a theme throughout Job.
Satans influence then will elicit animal like behavior.

Yes (sort of) .... this is one of his (satans) strongest "tools" ... The Theory of Evolution... ie man evolved from the animal kingdom. When it is very clear in His Word that mankind was made in His/Gods image .... and animals were not. They are separate and distinctive.

The Theory of Evolution is such a strong deception that even many christians try to "meld" the two (ie evolution/creation) .... still putting mankind within the animal kingdom.

Satan wants to be worshipped ... that is his prime motive ... the created creature (satan) wants to be god .... talked about being self-centered!!! Talk about self-deception ... he (satan) really thinks he can pull it off.

Thank the Lord ... we know better ;o)

This is why often in His Word those not in Christ are referred to as beasts ... the beast behind the beast is satan. (beasts are not made in the image of God)

Genesis 3:1

Berean Study Bible
Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field that the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden?’

Mankind was made in the image of God ... Be a child of God and not a beast ;o)

 

[zippy2006]

Agape is selfless.

Selfishness is never satisfied.

The difference between eros and agape isn't so much the difference between selfishness and selflessness. I don't think you will even find Lewis claiming such a thing.

See Deus Caritas Est, #3-11

“Eros” and “Agape” – difference and unity

3. That love between man and woman which is neither planned nor willed, but somehow imposes itself upon human beings, was called eros by the ancient Greeks. Let us note straight away that the Greek Old Testament uses the word eros only twice, while the New Testament does not use it at all: of the three Greek words for love, eros, philia (the love of friendship) and agape, New Testament writers prefer the last, which occurs rather infrequently in Greek usage. As for the term philia, the love of friendship, it is used with added depth of meaning in Saint John's Gospel in order to express the relationship between Jesus and his disciples. The tendency to avoid the word eros, together with the new vision of love expressed through the word agape, clearly point to something new and distinct about the Christian understanding of love. In the critique of Christianity which began with the Enlightenment and grew progressively more radical, this new element was seen as something thoroughly negative. According to Friedrich Nietzsche, Christianity had poisoned eros, which for its part, while not completely succumbing, gradually degenerated into vice. Here the German philosopher was expressing a widely-held perception: doesn't the Church, with all her commandments and prohibitions, turn to bitterness the most precious thing in life? Doesn't she blow the whistle just when the joy which is the Creator's gift offers us a happiness which is itself a certain foretaste of the Divine?

4. But is this the case? Did Christianity really destroy eros? Let us take a look at the pre- Christian world...​

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Hi there,

Reading CS Lewis the 4 Loves he stresses that Agape with believers should always underpin Eros.

I notice that animals and humans both experience Eros.

I notice that Eros has no mention in the NT and I also looked into the LXX and found nothing. I admit I may have missed something in the search.

I am trying to work this through and at this point I don't think Agape and Eros can co-habit...

I think Christian marriages should be underpinned by Agape in every area, but it is commonly held that it is healthy for Eros to dominate. Given the 50% of Christian marriages fall apart, I wonder if this is part of the reason.

I think the higher love from God will in fact yield a much deeper satisfaction in marriage than the self centered Eros.

I think Satan hates the fact that man is made in God's image and not the angels. He wants to prove to God that man is nothing more than an animal - I think this is a theme throughout Job.
Satans influence then will elicit animal like behavior.

Forgive me if I am wrong - can we explore this together?

I almost was expecting you to cover Michael Harper's take on that. Harper is a spirit filled charismatic
who also is very well read etc. and probably did the best job of covering the topic that I had encountered in the 1990s. Spending a chapter on Lewis 4 loves etc.


https://www.amazon.com/Love-Affair-Michael-Harper/dp/0802819303


Harper to his credit points out that Eros is much more than what we call Erotic love. Eros actually is a response to beauty and the ability to inspired by it, uplifted by it etc. There very much is a philosophical component to Eros. He however tends to eventually sand bag Eros altogether in his talking about Agape. In terms of Protestant narratives about Church corruption etc.

While I got a lot out of his book, I did have two big beefs with it.

1) The Eros aspect of inspiration is definitely in the Bible. e.g. Paul instructing believers to "think on these things" that are noble, beautiful etc.

2) The Hebrew term for love is very basic and all encompassing. It actually fits how we use love today. It can fit the 4 loves. This especially came out when I spent years studying the Aramaic New Testament. aka the Peshitta. That was one of the big areas of discussions are the narratives of love that you get with the Greek text, where Agape is pure love, but Phileo is a normal or brotherly love etc. It is especially true when covering certain passages of the Bible, like the famous "Love Chapter" of PAul.

Did you know that New Testament is not consistent in how it uses phileo and agape? They seem to be used as rough equivalents, and the very uses of the Bible undermine notions of things like pure love. The Trinity at times only phileo each other. The Pharisees at times Agape a lot of things etc.

Anyway I believe that Biblical love is much broader than agape and phileo. Familial love is a common theme in the Old Testament, like old testament prophecy where God's love is compared to something like a hen looking after the baby chicks, or some mother animal etc. and well that actually fits the classical Greek word storge that was never officially used that is the love of family etc.



PS - concerning Eros, Biblical scholar, Michael Heiser gives a good case why that is Biblical, aka Song of Solomon. People since Judaism have gone out of there way to read that as an allegory, in spite of the fact the fact that legitimate sexual relationship aka courtship & marriage is a big part of life, God's created order and plan, etc. and deserves to be covered for its own right.

 

[Carl Emerson]

1) The Eros aspect of inspiration is definitely in the Bible. e.g. Paul instructing believers to "think on these things" that are noble, beautiful etc.

Personally I don't think this is Eros at all. I think this is part of the human spirit responding to the goodness of God as outlined in Rom 1:19.

But lots of good information in your reply thanks...

 

[Sabertooth]

Agape - is that in fact not Eros redeemed or a different Love altogether???

Eros (redeemed) is a facet of agape that we reserve for just one person (if done correctly).

When we are fully dressed, we still have our privates (which God said were good, in design). We are just selective to whom we reveal them to.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Well it has been a helpful discussion - I still think that Eros is 'animal love' and we are called to Agape in every aspect of life. I dont think we can redeem Eros, if it was legit, Paul would have referenced it.
The giving in marriage is where the fulfillment is - we would do well to rediscover this. Lives are destroyed by 'the chase' it was never meant to be like that, but our societies do not seem to model any alternative and folks end up confused and broken if not destroyed. Still we can be thankful for great marriages in which spouses sacrifice their own desires preferring to serve rather than be served. This is typified in the relationship between Christ and the Church.

 

[zippy2006]

...if it was legit, Paul would have referenced it.

Paul's references to the sexual desire that belongs in a marital context is a reference to eros if ever there were one. Just because he doesn't use the word does not mean he isn't referring to the reality.