Against Sola Scriptura...

Afra · Apr 12, 2018

Albion said:
The notion that the supreme authority of Scripture is not referred to in Scripture is totally without foundation.

Therefore, the argument against it amounts to saying that the precise term, Sola Scriptura, is not to be found there (as was noted by Apologetic Warrior).

Whether or not Sacred Scripture is a supreme authority is beside the point. You must demonstrate that Sacred Scripture is the only supreme authority. Let me give you an example:

God the father is a supreme authority. God the son is a supreme authority. God the Holy Spirit is a supreme authority. Sacred Scripture is a supreme authority. And Sacred Tradition is a supreme authority.

Merely demonstrating the supreme authority of Sacred Scripture does not prove Sola Scriptura to be true.

Apologetic_Warrior · Apr 12, 2018

truefiction1 said:
It (Sola Scriptura) does teach, however, that the Church is not needed as a source of Truth, but that one should rather look to Scripture alone which can lead either to one objective Truth, or in other definitions of Sola Scriptura, one's own personal Truth. The Bible, however, teaches that the Church is needed, for she is the "pillar and foundation of Truth".

Prov 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, But fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Prov 9:10 “The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

Col 2:3 [Christ] in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

Christ is the "pillar and foundation of Truth", He is the head of the Church, and any Church that places itself above (or on the same level as) the head, has lost it's head to autonomy and personal relativism.

Afra · Apr 12, 2018

Apologetic_Warrior said:
Prov 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, But fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Prov 9:10 “The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

Col 2:3 [Christ] in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

Christ is the "pillar and foundation of Truth", He is the head of the Church, and any Church that places itself above (or on the same level as) the head, has lost it's head to autonomy and personal relativism.

14 These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly:

15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

KJV

Missgrundy · Apr 12, 2018

Tree of Life said:
I'm writing an academic paper for my seminary program AND teaching two Sunday school classes on the doctrine of Sola Scriptura. My basic thesis will be something like: "The Bible teaches the doctrine of Sola Scriptura and therefore we should accept it."

In order to do a bang-up job I need to confront and dispatch the most formidable objections to the doctrine. What objections are you aware of? Also, if you could recommend a good book or scholarly article, perhaps from a Catholic perspective, which seeks to argue against Sola Scriptura, I would appreciate it!

Edit: By the way, let me define Sola Scriptura. The definition I'm working from is this:

The Bible alone is the Word of God and the only infallible rule of faith and practice.

Ive always been a beleiver of prima scriptura.its always been more realistic n makes more sense to me than what the latter tries explaining and remaining adamant on. So many unanswered questions in sola.Wish you'd done a paper on the former I'd have been more forthcoming sadly but all the best in your paper either way

Apologetic_Warrior · Apr 12, 2018

Afra said:
14 These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly:

15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

KJV

The Church of the living God, has Christ at the head, and her firm standing grounds for truth, is because of Christ, because she looks to Him as the source of all knowledge, of all truth.

Afra · Apr 12, 2018

Apologetic_Warrior said:
The Church of the living God, has Christ at the head, and her firm standing grounds for truth, is because of Christ, because she looks to Him as the source of all knowledge, of all truth.

14 These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly:

15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

KJV

Apologetic_Warrior · Apr 12, 2018

Afra said:
14 These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly:

15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

KJV

And whom is the head of the church of the living God? Answer that and you make the point I've already made.

com7fy8 · Apr 12, 2018

Tree of Life said:
What objections are you aware of?

I won't say these are objections, but testing the subject >

Jesus Himself is the Word.

"And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in knowledge and all discernment." (Philippians 1:9)

"you are an epistle of Christ" (in 2 Corinthians 3:3).

fhansen · Apr 12, 2018

Apologetic_Warrior said:
And whom is the head of the church of the living God? Answer that and you make the point I've already made.

And yet Christ can't reign through the written Word without it being correctly interpreted and understood. And this is a purpose of the Church.

JM · Apr 12, 2018

Apologetic_Warrior said:
One challenge that come to mind is the oral tradition especially as it relates to Old Testament periods of time. From Creation to Moses where would one find support for Sola Scriptura? Before man was created who was there to witness and record to memory the events? It is revelation from God and oral tradition later recorded in writing and passed down to future generations, along with written tradition of genealogies.

My buddy applies that type of argument to the time before the canon was agreed upon AND wide spread. So, I'm guessing the scriptures were not often collected and read as a whole until 300 to 500? He then asks what was used before that?

Apologetic_Warrior · Apr 12, 2018

fhansen said:
And yet Christ can't reign through the written Word without it being correctly interpreted and understood. And this is a purpose of the Church.

Am I to understand the Church has God the Holy Spirit in a box? It is the Spirit that leads and guides into the truth yes? And whom does the Spirit of God dwell? His people, aka the Church. Let's give credit where it's due, and our dependencies where they due.

truefiction1 · Apr 12, 2018

Apologetic_Warrior said:
Prov 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, But fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Prov 9:10 “The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

Col 2:3 [Christ] in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

Christ is the "pillar and foundation of Truth", He is the head of the Church, and any Church that places itself above (or on the same level as) the head, has lost it's head to autonomy and personal relativism.

Well, I agree, and so I'm glad that I have by God's grace, somehow found myself to have become a member of the one Church wherein by the power of the Holy Spirit, Christ is the Head.

BobRyan · Apr 12, 2018

Tree of Life said:
I'm writing an academic paper for my seminary program AND teaching two Sunday school classes on the doctrine of Sola Scriptura. My basic thesis will be something like: "The Bible teaches the doctrine of Sola Scriptura and therefore we should accept it."

In order to do a bang-up job I need to confront and dispatch the most formidable objections to the doctrine. What objections are you aware of? Also, if you could recommend a good book or scholarly article, perhaps from a Catholic perspective, which seeks to argue against Sola Scriptura, I would appreciate it!

Edit: By the way, let me define Sola Scriptura. The definition I'm working from is this:

The Bible alone is the Word of God and the only infallible rule of faith and practice.

Suggest a more lasting definition

1. The Bible is the Word of God.
2. The Word of God is the only infallible rule of faith and practice.

Thus... Isiah 8:20 "To the law and to the testimony if they speak not according to this word they have no light" is sola scriptura affirmed long before the NT.

But the way you use "alone" you defeat your own doctrine by eliminating all possibility of finding that doctrine in scripture.

If Isaiah had said "what is written scripture at this point alone - is the Word of God and the rule of faith" -- then not even the rest of Isaiah would be "valid" nor the remainder of the OT nor all the NT.

If the rule is used in Acts 17:11 "They studied the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things spoken to them by the Apostle Paul - were SO" but if you insert your wording into it -- then that text is saying that only the accepted scriptures as known at the writing of Acts 17:11 is the "Word of God" and only those texts are valid rules for testing faith, tradition and practice. Not the remainder of Acts not even the writings of the NT since the Bereans were surely not reading any NT texts while still non-Christian Jews.

BobRyan · Apr 12, 2018

Apologetic_Warrior said:
Am I to understand the Church has God the Holy Spirit in a box?

No. The Bible has the church in a box.

truefiction1 · Apr 12, 2018

Apologetic_Warrior said:
This is the same argument opponents of systematic theology and usage of theological terms that are not found directly in Scripture. It is also the same argument opponents of the doctrine of the Trinity make. One of the greatest philosophical minds in the Catholic tradition would be St. Thomas Aquinas, his Summa being one of the earliest systematic theologies.

It's not quite the same, because we aren't saying that the term "Sola Scriptura" doesn't appear anywhere in the Bible and is therefor to be rejected on those grounds. What we are saying is that the very idea of Sola Scriptura is both absent from and rejected by the Bible. Sound doctrine and theology are not absent from the Bible.

Afra · Apr 12, 2018

Apologetic_Warrior said:
And whom is the head of the church of the living God? Answer that and you make the point I've already made.

Our Lord is the head of the Catholic Church, and we are its members.

But that does not change the fact that the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. That is exactly what Sacred Scripture states, regardless of whatever else you have to say about it.

fhansen · Apr 12, 2018

Apologetic_Warrior said:
Am I to understand the Church has God the Holy Spirit in a box? It is the Spirit that leads and guides into the truth yes? And whom does the Spirit of God dwell? His people, aka the Church. Let's give credit where it's due, and our dependencies where they due.

Nope. Just too much disagreement over important beliefs between people claiming to be Spirit-led going by Scripture alone. The Church received and proclaimed the gospel before a word of the New Testament was written. That's her purpose.

Apologetic_Warrior · Apr 12, 2018

JM said:
My buddy applies that type of argument to the time before the canon was agreed upon AND wide spread. So, I'm guessing the scriptures were not often collected and read as a whole until 300 to 500? He then asks what was used before that?

This is where Dr. Michael J. Kruger's book "Canon Revisited" is a breath of fresh air, his approach to the topic is God centered and recognizes God as the head of the canon. I really need to get around to reading it, but I understand the gist of what it is about and where he is coming from in approaching it, rather than the more traditional way of simply referring to Catholic Church councils as having settled the issue of canon.

Tree of Life · Apr 12, 2018

fhansen said:
I would highly doubt it. And that's the very reason the church hasn't relied on Scripture alone.

My point is that the Catholic solution does not solve the problem you raise.

dreadnought · Apr 12, 2018

St_Worm2 said:
If the Lord told me not to, of course I would be. Wouldn't you?

How can lying to someone, or even trying to conceal an important truth from them (especially a Biblical truth), be the "loving" thing to do in most cases Is that the way you want others to treat you, to lie or withhold needed information from you when they think you might not like hearing it?

If the Lord asked me to stop talking in church, I might ask him why.

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