Again, the entire debate between Catholcism and Protestantism hinges upon salvation

[Distinguished]

Jesus says that we must be born "again" of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter in the kingdom of God (John 3:5). He also says that anyone that eats of his flesh (Eucharist) shall live forever (John 6:52). In Luke 18: 18-22, a ruler asked Jesus what he should do to inherit eternal life. Jesus spoke the commandments and also told him to follow him. A similar passage is found in Luke 10:26-28, where a lawyer asks Jesus what he must do to inherit eternal life and Jesus asked him what is written in the law. The lawyer says the two chief commandment (Love of God & Love of neighbor) and Jesus responded "you have answered well. Do this and you shall live."

God bless.

In John 6:28 it reads, "Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.""

Jesus said that the only work required is to believe in him.

About your passages you mentioned...The first one is a wash because that is referring to being born again of the Holy Spirit, which comes only by faith in Christ. Only Chirstians have the Holy Spirit. To believe in Christ and to be saved is to be born again.

But I am aware of other passages that you might point to that says that if you do not do this or that work than you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. The kingdom of God is a reward. But please let me explain the kingdom of heaven. It is the KINGDOM of heaven. It is not all of heaven, but rather the kingdom of Heaven. It is like saying "the capital of the United States" and people getting that confused with the entire United States. But banning people from the capital of the United States is not to ban someone from the United States. The Kingdom of Heaven refers to the New Jerusalem, which is the Capital city of the New Heaven or New Earth. Special works are required to be worthy of entering that city. Please note that whenever works are mentioned with entering heaven, it will never say "heaven" alone, but always say the Kingdom of Heaven. No works are required to enter heaven, just the kingdom of heaven.

Luke 10:26-28 is a unique passage and the only one like it in the New Testament. BUt lets look again at it. This ruler asks Jesus how HE can have eternal life. Before Jesus actually dies and resurrects, the Godly rule is still under the Mosaic Law and dispensation. This person cannot believe in the resurrection because Jesus did not die and resurrect yet, Jesus is standing there talking to him. Now imagine if this ruler dies before Jesus dies on the cross. Then this ruler will never have an opportunity to believe by faith in the resurrection of Jesus and he would have died in the dispensation of Moses Law of works. Jesus knew, being omniscient when this ruler's death day would be and Jesus responds telling him how HE could receive eternal life. Do you want proof? Look at verse 26-27, Jesus brings up the Law of Moses for this person to get saved. That's not New Testament teaching. But that is accurate for this guy who will not live to see the day of JEsus' resurrection how he will get saved.

I have a different take on the rich ruler in Luke 18:18-27. Here, the rich ruler loves his riches more than wanting to commit his heart to Jesus. Here, this rich ruler has something that is preventing him from believing in Jesus. Jesus says, "How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God." And note my commentary above about the Kingdom of God. He concludes by saying "What is impossible with men is possible with God." How can we relinquish our riches for salvation? With human effort it is impossible for us to save ourselves, but what is impossible for man is possible with God. God does the work of saving if we just believe in Him through faith. We cannot do it on our own through works.

 

[CryptoLutheran]

I am well aware of Matt 25. But look at the verse that begins that portion that you are referring to. Verse 31 says, "When the son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him..." This verse gives the occassion and time of this passage. It is not the Rapture because the bible says that at the rapture, Jesus will come with those who have died in Christ, and not his angels. Matt 25 corresponds to Rev. 14:13-20, which is where Jesus harvests the earth. These are people from the Tribulation period. This is after the Day of Grace when salvation is free by grace alone, and is the day of Wrath where things sort of revert back to OT times. Salvation in the day of Wrath will be based on Faith in Christ and works as Matt 25 says. But that is not now, which is the Day of Grace. It is "When the Son of Man comes with his holy angels" which is just before the Great Tribulation. Jesus gets all those saved from the Earth to spare them the Great Tribulation. Then he judges the final non-Christians in Rev. 20. You'll have to look at this indepthly to see what I am saying is true.

Your reading hinges entirely upon the notion that there's going to be a Rapture.

As such, and as someone who rejects the Rapture as a fiction appearing in the 19th century you're going to find it a little hard to convince me that Matthew 25 is anything other than a statement about you and me standing before Christ on the Last Day.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[CryptoLutheran]

So what exactly is people's wrongful conception of God the Father being blamed on?

I hope the same tired old excuse of "Reformed theology, Calvinism, etc. has done terrible damage to me so I bailed out of Protestantism for XYZ non-Protestant church" is not being tossed up as a self-justification for that choice.

I blame it on a terribly problematic reading of Scripture that flows from an idiosyncratic view of Penal Substitution theory that suggest that we are being saved by Christ from God's wrath set to see our destruction rather than being saved by God, through Christ from our own self-destructive ways. God the Father is the One who loves us and wills for all to be saved, and accomplishes this through His Son, our Lord Jesus, who has conquered over sin and death by His death on the cross and rising from the grave.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[chestertonrules]

I plead with Catholics... the entire debate between us hinges upon salvation alone. Sure there are secondary matters, but this is the key thing...

You think it's evil that we preach salvation by faith alone, but that's what is biblical. When a person is saved they'll produce good works, but you don't do good works to become saved.

Infant baptism isn't needed for salvation, God has to open the heart first, and after you're saved, you must be baptized only to show you're faith.

Please reject the false doctrines of Roman Catholicism, look to the Lord alone to save you, and be saved, then reach out to those that are still holding to the false doctrines.

OSAS is a dangerous idea that is unbiblical and utterly foreign for most of Christian history.

Jesus that we must obey his commandments to remain in his love.

Do you believe this?

 

[chestertonrules]

In John 6:28 it reads, "Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.""

Jesus said that the only work required is to believe in him.

He didn't say only.

He did say this:

John 15
10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.

Note that commands is plural.

 

[katherine2001]

Your reading hinges entirely upon the notion that there's going to be a Rapture.

As such, and as someone who rejects the Rapture as a fiction appearing in the 19th century you're going to find it a little hard to convince me that Matthew 25 is anything other than a statement about you and me standing before Christ on the Last Day.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Tzaousios]

I blame it on a terribly problematic reading of Scripture that flows from an idiosyncratic view of Penal Substitution theory...

Idiosyncratic? I don't see what you mean by that term in this context. It is not as if Reformed theology created what is (often pejoratively) called "Penal Substitution" out of whole cloth or "in the past 500 years" as some in GT derisively like to put it.

It is a matter of emphasis, which many non-Reformed Protestants and non-Protestants are either ignorant of or unwilling to acknowledge. It appears in just about all of the early church fathers in one place or another, only they choose to emphasize it equally or less so than other theories such as recapitulation, sacramental atonement, etc.

...that suggest that we are being saved by Christ from God's wrath set to see our destruction rather than being saved by God, through Christ from our own self-destructive ways. God the Father is the One who loves us and wills for all to be saved, and accomplishes this through His Son, our Lord Jesus, who has conquered over sin and death by His death on the cross and rising from the grave.

I understand and see where your particular emphasis is.

 

[Chris81]

I do believe in election. However I'm not so sure about predestination unto hell. Romans 9:22 is a tricky verse. But yes, I do believe that people are elected for salvation. But, the Lord works through us as a means to an end for preaching the word, and showing people the truth. Philippians 2:13 ESV: for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Interesting... Do only the elect receive salvation? What then is the fate of the unelected? Is it possible for those that are not preordained to heaven to receive saving faith in Christ?

Regarding Luther... yes, his understanding of salvation was indeed flawed... Yes he came up with a quasi-faith alone understanding, but still viewed it through having to be baptized. This can be seen in his catechisms, and in his writings. One can see this on this website: Martin Luther's Sacramental Gospel

I read through the web link entitled 'Martin Luther's Sacramental Gospel'. The site is very much tailored to a baptist and an evangelical audience. Most Christians would certainly not view the practice of baptism and communion as sacraments, as anything negative. Likewise, this site seems to be breading some confusion as to why Lutherans and in many cases other Christians practice infant baptism.

Infant baptism is the means of grace by which god initiates the process of salvation. It is the grace that works in our lives before we are aware of it, bringing us to faith.

Does that mean that once you are baptised you are saved forever? No, certainly not. Baptism merely prepares the way, such that a child may respond with their own confession of faith. One must remain in abiding faith in the Lord and obediently follow what Christ has commanded us to do in order to retain the gift of salvation.

Infant baptism is also necessary because we are all conceived in sin and of need of salvation "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me." Psalm 51:5. Also Jesus calls the Children to be a part of his Kingdom: "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. " Mark 10:14. Additionally on the day of Pentecost, Peter told the gathered crowd, "Repent and be baptized." He also said, "The promise is for you and your children" Acts 2:38-39. Children were included in the command and promise Peter spoke.

Baptist and Evangelicals might also be confused as to the need of baptism for adult or older children who have faith in Christ but have not been baptised. In such a case, baptism is not required since the purpose of baptism is as stated above as a means of grace by which one is brought to faith. In Methodist Churches it is possible to receive a believers baptism. However, we treat these baptisms as an ordnance rather than a sacrament and our emphasis is upon the gracious action of God rather than upon the individuals decision.

As for the last section of your post... that is something I need to look into... the Apostle Paul told us to watch out for "bad" people, Romans 16 17I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles(I) contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught;(J) avoid them. 18For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but(K) their own appetites,[f] and(L) by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive. 19For(M) your obedience is known to all, so that I rejoice over you, but I want you(N) to be wise as to what is good and innocent as to what is evil.

And based on principles gleaned from 2 John, we need to "judge" those who bring false doctrines, so we can keep them from our houses. Obviously this refers to those who were caught in the beginning stages of gnosticism, but through the principles, we know that we're to stay away from those teaching false doctrines.

7For(L) many deceivers(M) have gone out into the world,(N) those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist. 8Watch yourselves,(O) so that you may not lose what we[a] have worked for, but(P) may win a full reward. 9Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ,(Q) does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching,(R) do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, 11for whoever greets him(S) takes part in his wicked works.

Based on those two passages, I cannot "hold" hands with those who have a significantly different idea on how to become saved.

While it certainly is important to avoid the tares among the wheat, we should not forget that we should also seek unity in Christ.

[SIZE=-1]Walk worthily of the calling with which you were called, with all lowliness and humility, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love; being eager to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace" (Eph. 4:1-3).[/SIZE]


[SIZE=-1]".... Holy Father, keep them through your name which you have given me, [/SIZE]that they may be one[SIZE=-1], even as we are. .... Not for these only do I pray, but for those also who believe in me through their word, that [/SIZE]they may all be one;[SIZE=-1] even as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that you sent me. The glory which you have given me, I have given to them; [/SIZE]that they may be one[SIZE=-1], even as we are one; I in them, and you in me, [/SIZE]that they may be perfected into one;[SIZE=-1] that the world may know that you sent me, and loved them, even as you loved me."[/SIZE][SIZE=-1] (John 17:11, 20-23)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart (2 Tim. 2:22).[/SIZE]

Christ desires for all Christian to have 'unity of Spirit'. Although differences of beliefs, doctrine, interpretation, and opinion may be held and expressed among believers, they should be expressed in love and fellowship with those who may differ. We should not allow doctrines to muddle our relationships with other Christians. Instead let our faith in the one true God, Christ, and Savior be that which unites us as citizens of the Kingdom of God.

 

[Bob Jones Student]

OSAS is a dangerous idea that is unbiblical and utterly foreign for most of Christian history.

Jesus that we must obey his commandments to remain in his love.

Do you believe this?

If election is true, and God has chosen people to be saved from before the foundation of the world, then how can they fall away from that grace and be eternally damned?

John 6:37-38, 6:44, 6:65

Works are needed... but it always comes after salvation. Works have nothing to do with our becoming saved, and for "maintaining" salvation because those who are saved will always be producing good works. Sure they'll sin, but the Lord will get them back on track. And again, only those ultimately chosen will be saved. If you weren't chosen for salvation Chesterton, then you won't be with Jesus in glory, and as of now I see that you cling to a works based salvation. I admonish you to learn the word right, and to repent, and believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Erose]

In John 6:28 it reads, "Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.""

Jesus said that the only work required is to believe in him.

About your passages you mentioned...The first one is a wash because that is referring to being born again of the Holy Spirit, which comes only by faith in Christ. Only Chirstians have the Holy Spirit. To believe in Christ and to be saved is to be born again.

But I am aware of other passages that you might point to that says that if you do not do this or that work than you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. The kingdom of God is a reward. But please let me explain the kingdom of heaven. It is the KINGDOM of heaven. It is not all of heaven, but rather the kingdom of Heaven. It is like saying "the capital of the United States" and people getting that confused with the entire United States. But banning people from the capital of the United States is not to ban someone from the United States. The Kingdom of Heaven refers to the New Jerusalem, which is the Capital city of the New Heaven or New Earth. Special works are required to be worthy of entering that city. Please note that whenever works are mentioned with entering heaven, it will never say "heaven" alone, but always say the Kingdom of Heaven. No works are required to enter heaven, just the kingdom of heaven.

Luke 10:26-28 is a unique passage and the only one like it in the New Testament. BUt lets look again at it. This ruler asks Jesus how HE can have eternal life. Before Jesus actually dies and resurrects, the Godly rule is still under the Mosaic Law and dispensation. This person cannot believe in the resurrection because Jesus did not die and resurrect yet, Jesus is standing there talking to him. Now imagine if this ruler dies before Jesus dies on the cross. Then this ruler will never have an opportunity to believe by faith in the resurrection of Jesus and he would have died in the dispensation of Moses Law of works. Jesus knew, being omniscient when this ruler's death day would be and Jesus responds telling him how HE could receive eternal life. Do you want proof? Look at verse 26-27, Jesus brings up the Law of Moses for this person to get saved. That's not New Testament teaching. But that is accurate for this guy who will not live to see the day of JEsus' resurrection how he will get saved.

I have a different take on the rich ruler in Luke 18:18-27. Here, the rich ruler loves his riches more than wanting to commit his heart to Jesus. Here, this rich ruler has something that is preventing him from believing in Jesus. Jesus says, "How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God." And note my commentary above about the Kingdom of God. He concludes by saying "What is impossible with men is possible with God." How can we relinquish our riches for salvation? With human effort it is impossible for us to save ourselves, but what is impossible for man is possible with God. God does the work of saving if we just believe in Him through faith. We cannot do it on our own through works.

I want to point out one thing from your posts my friend. You are spending way too much time trying to explain away these passages and trying to show, well they say it but they really do not say it. For example the first passage "Amen, amen I say to thee, unless you are born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Refers to baptism and its necessity.

Concerning the passage you quoted "if you believe in Him" I agree 100%. Where we would disagree is what does that mean. Does it mean to just believe in His existence and his power or does it mean that I will believe in His existence, power, and everything He has taught us to do.

Also there is no such thing as the "rapture". That is a made up belief that is nowhere in the Bible. It was made up by those who just cannot believe that God would allow his people to go through the Great Tribulation at the end of times.

Do yourself a favor look at the teachings of Christ literally first. I know that the parables can be confusing at times but there is a message in all of his parables for everyone no matter at what point in history they live. Including the parables and teachings of when He will come back. Alot of people get so focused on when the rapture is going to happen and there is not a few people that have made a good bit of money off of this teaching. I have seen this first hand. Just be careful with what you assume as true.

God bless.

 

[Bob Jones Student]

What it means to be born of water:

Ezekiel 36 ESV

Eze 36:24 I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land.
Eze 36:25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you.
Eze 36:26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

 

[laconicstudent]

What it means to be born of water:

Ezekiel 36 ESV

Eze 36:24 I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land.
Eze 36:25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you.
Eze 36:26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

​

 

[boswd]

If election is true, and God has chosen people to be saved from before the foundation of the world, then how can they fall away from that grace and be eternally damned?

John 6:37-38, 6:44, 6:65

Works are needed... but it always comes after salvation. Works have nothing to do with our becoming saved, and for "maintaining" salvation because those who are saved will always be producing good works. Sure they'll sin, but the Lord will get them back on track. And again, only those ultimately chosen will be saved. If you weren't chosen for salvation Chesterton, then you won't be with Jesus in glory, and as of now I see that you cling to a works based salvation. I admonish you to learn the word right, and to repent, and believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ.

so basically you just relieved yourself of any sort of responsbility to do Good Works. If you dont' then the Holy Spirit has the day off and if you it's because the HS has clocked in.

the Holy Spirit guides us, it does not makes us into mindless zombies.

 

[Distinguished]

Your reading hinges entirely upon the notion that there's going to be a Rapture.

As such, and as someone who rejects the Rapture as a fiction appearing in the 19th century you're going to find it a little hard to convince me that Matthew 25 is anything other than a statement about you and me standing before Christ on the Last Day.

-CryptoLutheran

Wow, two people here said that there is no such thing as the rapture. The rapture is supported by scripture, in Revelation, Corinthians and in Thessalonians, but I'll just give Thessalonians here.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 speaks of the Rapture.

Vs. 13, "Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. [in other words, we have something to look forward to] We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him."

Those who have fallen asleep in Jesus are believers who died and therefore are saved with Christ. It says that Jesus is going to bring them with him.

vs. 15, "According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Chirst will rise first."

So it is clearly speaking of Jesus' second coming. It says that the dead in Christ will precede those who are alive at the time and they will rise first. Of course the question arises: I thought the dead in Christ was in the sky with him as the other verse said at the beginning. Yes, the dead in Christ did come in the sky with him, but they are picking up their bodies when they get here. It is their spirits that are in the sky with Christ, their bodies will rise up from the ground and meet their spirits in the air and they will be given new bodies and changed in a twinkling of an eye.

vs. 17, "After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Adn so we will be with the Lord forever."

How is that not a rapture verse? We who are alive will follow the dead bodies rising to meet their spirits and we who are alive at the time will get new bodies ourselves when we get to the clouds to meet him. This goes along with 1 Corinthians 15:51-52.

 

[CryptoLutheran]

​

You totally beat me to the punch, if I hadn't scrolled down as much as I did I was going to do the same.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[CryptoLutheran]

Wow, two people here said that there is no such thing as the rapture. The rapture is supported by scripture, in Revelation, Corinthians and in Thessalonians, but I'll just give Thessalonians here.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 speaks of the Rapture.

Vs. 13, "Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. [in other words, we have something to look forward to] We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him."

Those who have fallen asleep in Jesus are believers who died and therefore are saved with Christ. It says that Jesus is going to bring them with him.

vs. 15, "According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Chirst will rise first."

So it is clearly speaking of Jesus' second coming. It says that the dead in Christ will precede those who are alive at the time and they will rise first. Of course the question arises: I thought the dead in Christ was in the sky with him as the other verse said at the beginning. Yes, the dead in Christ did come in the sky with him, but they are picking up their bodies when they get here. It is their spirits that are in the sky with Christ, their bodies will rise up from the ground and meet their spirits in the air and they will be given new bodies and changed in a twinkling of an eye.

So far so good, though I think your way of picturing the resurrection as described in the passage is a bit strange, but I won't nitpick on that here.

vs. 17, "After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Adn so we will be with the Lord forever."

How is that not a rapture verse? We who are alive will follow the dead bodies rising to meet their spirits and we who are alive at the time will get new bodies ourselves when we get to the clouds to meet him. This goes along with 1 Corinthians 15:51-52.

Because "the Rapture" as defined by the vast majority of those who use it do so referring to Christians being snatched away into heaven, often with a 3.5 or 7 year period between this event and the return of the Lord Jesus in glory and power. Such a notion has no basis in Scripture whatsoever.

When the Lord returns it will be in glory and power to judge the living and the dead, the dead will be raised up on that Day.

What 1 Thessalonians 4 and 1 Corinthians 15 are talking about is the future resurrection of the body, not "the Rapture". 1 Thessalonians describes the event as an amazing and even noisy affair when the Lord returns we'll actually go up to meet Him in the air, like a royal entourage going out and greeting a returning and triumphant king.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Dark_Lite]

Wow, two people here said that there is no such thing as the rapture. The rapture is supported by scripture

Pretty much anything can be supported by scripture. The idea of the rapture did not show up until the 19th century. That should tell you something.

 

[Tzaousios]

the Holy Spirit guides us, it does not makes us into mindless zombies.

I spy the puppets/marionettes/robots/zombies trope!

 

[MamaZ]

Pretty much anything can be supported by scripture. The idea of the rapture did not show up until the 19th century. That should tell you something.

I see the idea of rapture even in the Old Testement. Where God took Enoch and Elijah.

 

[hedrick]

If election is true, and God has chosen people to be saved from before the foundation of the world, then how can they fall away from that grace and be eternally damned?

Works are needed... but it always comes after salvation. Works have nothing to do with our becoming saved, and for "maintaining" salvation because those who are saved will always be producing good works

However the traditions that emphasize election normally use "salvation" in a different way, not just as being forgiven, but also being regenerated. Of course this won't finish in this life, but salvation includes the whole process of the Christian life. It's *justification* that is by faith alone. Justification is a matter of status, of being a good standing with God (depending upon the passage and the interpreter, sometimes justification seems to mean being brought into good standing and sometimes being recognized as being in good standing). But I would use salvation as a broader term. It is based on justification, but also includes sanctification, which is not just good works, but being made into the kind of people who do good works. So justification brings us into the position where we can be regenerated, and salvation includes both of these things.

The Reformed tradition normally uses salvation in this larger meaning. I'm not as familiar with Lutheran thought, but I believe they do as well. it's partly just an issue of word choice, but I think the word choice matters, because it affects how we read certain Biblical passages. When the Bible talks about saving us from our sins I think it means not just forgiving us but actually renewing God image in us. Of course the Bible isn't a theology text, so it may use the same term differently in different places, but I'd still take the broader meaning as the basic one.