Again, the entire debate between Catholcism and Protestantism hinges upon salvation

[sunlover1]

Actually his name is Bryan. There is nothing to be scared of this won't hurt a bit!

Hmmm, I just KNOW I've heard that before.

(trying to remember.. )
........
.....





Be blessed Athanasias.
Will be sure to let you know when I'm sending them to St Louis

 

[Bob Jones Student]

How do you know that you are of the elect? In all seriousness I am interested to know how a strict Calvinist 'knows' they are saved.

In Calvinist theology you believe in Unconditional Election in which God elects to save people based on his own criteria and not of condition of the individual in the maters of sin or heartfelt belief. You likely will tell me that your soul has been regenerated by the grace of God and that you have been given saving faith. However, Calvin taught something called 'evanescent grace' in which God gives a 'fake grace' to the Reprobate to make them 'think' and act as if they were Saved, and this only so that He could damn them with greater punishment for such deceptive behavior. Such teaching can be found in Book III, Chapter II, Section 11 of Institutes of the Christian Religion. It appears from his teachings that the 'evanescent grace' is most often indistinguishable from the real thing. Therefore, in reality their is no assurance of salvation with such a theology.

Even Calvin had some theological issues. I don't believe in that specific doctrine, nor does it appear to be Biblical.

Now I know a lot of the older Puritan Calvinists, etc. did suffer from assurance issues.

Regarding Arminians, I do believe a bunch of them are saved.... but it's those that understand a lot of what Arminianism stands for, and argue for it that make me worried. To argue for such doctrines in the face of what the Bible teaches is silly. Before I was saved, I knew nothing of election or predestination. It wasn't till after a few months worth of study, getting into MacArthur, etc, etc. that I began to study and understand it. I'm also only as Calvinistic as it's Biblical. I'm still leery at limited atonement, though it's logically deduced by biblical election.

Trust me, these last few years since I was saved in March 2006 haven't been easy. Since I was saved, it has almost been like I've been fighting a world war against Satan, his demons, and the rest of the world.

But for evidence, my life has changed and it wasn't because of me. Remember John Newton? He was setting the world on fire for the devil, then the Lord saved him. Now I never got as low as Newton, nevertheless I swore a lot, listened to ungodly music, sexual immorality, etc. I knew the Gospel, and one night, I knew I had to be saved. I asked the Lord to save me. Then absolutely everything began changing.

 

[chestertonrules]

But for evidence, my life has changed and it wasn't because of me. Remember John Newton? He was setting the world on fire for the devil, then the Lord saved him. Now I never got as low as Newton, nevertheless I swore a lot, listened to ungodly music, sexual immorality, etc. I knew the Gospel, and one night, I knew I had to be saved. I asked the Lord to save me. Then absolutely everything began changing.

Do you still sin?

 

[Bob Jones Student]

Do you still sin?

Of course? But even if a person sins, they don't lose salvation. Whenever I sin, I immediately know it as the Lord is convicting me, until I repent of it, and ask the Lord for His forgiveness.

 

[laconicstudent]

Regarding Arminians, I do believe a bunch of them are saved.... but it's those that understand a lot of what Arminianism stands for, and argue for it that make me worried. To argue for such doctrines in the face of what the Bible teaches is silly. Before I was saved, I knew nothing of election or predestination. It wasn't till after a few months worth of study, getting into MacArthur, etc, etc. that I began to study and understand it. I'm also only as Calvinistic as it's Biblical. I'm still leery at limited atonement, though it's logically deduced by biblical election.

 

[chestertonrules]

Of course? But even if a person sins, they don't lose salvation. Whenever I sin, I immediately know it as the Lord is convicting me, until I repent of it, and ask the Lord for His forgiveness.

If you continue to sin without repentence will you lose your faith?

I believe that you will.

I believe that salvation is a journey, not an event.

Jesus seems to back me up on this:


Matthew 10:22 "And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.
Matthew 24:13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved. Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father."

As do Paul and Peter:


2 Timothy 2:12 "If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us".
1 Timothy 1:19 "Keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and their faith has been shipwrecked".

2 Peter 2:20-21 "They were made free from the evil in the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But if they return to evil things and those things control them, then it is worse for them than it was before. Yes, it would be better for them to have never known the right way than to know it and to turn away from the holy teaching that was given to them."

 

[Chris81]

Even Calvin had some theological issues. I don't believe in that specific doctrine, nor does it appear to be Biblical.

Now I know a lot of the older Puritan Calvinists, etc. did suffer from assurance issues.

Regarding Arminians, I do believe a bunch of them are saved.... but it's those that understand a lot of what Arminianism stands for, and argue for it that make me worried. To argue for such doctrines in the face of what the Bible teaches is silly. Before I was saved, I knew nothing of election or predestination. It wasn't till after a few months worth of study, getting into MacArthur, etc, etc. that I began to study and understand it. I'm also only as Calvinistic as it's Biblical. I'm still leery at limited atonement, though it's logically deduced by biblical election.

Trust me, these last few years since I was saved in March 2006 haven't been easy. Since I was saved, it has almost been like I've been fighting a world war against Satan, his demons, and the rest of the world.

But for evidence, my life has changed and it wasn't because of me. Remember John Newton? He was setting the world on fire for the devil, then the Lord saved him. Now I never got as low as Newton, nevertheless I swore a lot, listened to ungodly music, sexual immorality, etc. I knew the Gospel, and one night, I knew I had to be saved. I asked the Lord to save me. Then absolutely everything began changing.

God Bless! It is often wonderful to hear of how Christ transforms a life into one of his faithful Disciples. I know I have seen it in my life but I truly knew without a doubt Christ was true when my Mother returned to faith only a couple of years ago. It is in the transformed lives that have been touched by Christ that we find the greatest evidence of his divinity and his truth spoken through the bible.

Keep an open mind that Christians are represented by a diverse group of denominations, all with some conflicting doctrines but all seeking to follow and serve Christ.

 

[Bob Jones Student]

If you continue to sin without repentence will you lose your faith?

I believe that you will.

I believe that salvation is a journey, not an event.

Jesus seems to back me up on this:


Matthew 10:22 "And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.
Matthew 24:13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved. Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father."

As do Paul and Peter:


2 Timothy 2:12 "If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us".
1 Timothy 1:19 "Keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and their faith has been shipwrecked".

2 Peter 2:20-21 "They were made free from the evil in the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But if they return to evil things and those things control them, then it is worse for them than it was before. Yes, it would be better for them to have never known the right way than to know it and to turn away from the holy teaching that was given to them."

Again, scripture isn't going to contradict itself. If people are eternally saved, which they are, then they aren't going to lose salvation. Those that don't endure then are those who weren't truly saved.

 

[chestertonrules]

Again, scripture isn't going to contradict itself. If people are eternally saved, which they are, then they aren't going to lose salvation. Those that don't endure then are those who weren't truly saved.

Scripture is clear that sin can destroy faith, and without faith we cannot be saved.

You are advocating an unbiblical doctrine.(OSAS)

 

[sunlover1]

Scripture is clear that sin can destroy faith, and without faith we cannot be saved.

You are advocating an unbiblical doctrine.(OSAS)

And so ... you saying "you" don't sin?
(because I happen to know otherwise lol)

(Not that i agree with Calvinism, because I don't)

 

[chestertonrules]

And so ... you saying "you" don't sin?
(because I happen to know otherwise lol)

(Not that i agree with Calvinism, because I don't)

I do sin, but less than I used to!!


I am on the journey of faith and I am doing my best to accept and cooperate with God's grace.

What if I stop trying?

 

[sunlover1]

I do sin, but less than I used to!!


I am on the journey of faith and I am doing my best to accept and cooperate with God's grace.

Sounds like a cool journey chesterton.
I think we're both foreigners and aliens here...
just passin' through. Doin the best we can
Oh dang, that reminds me of a great song!
YouTube - Allman Brothers - Ramblin' Man

What if I stop trying?

Oh ouch.
But it hurts either way.
Because you either get cut off altogether
or ya get pruned.
Neither one feels so good..

(Maybe we all ought to be a little bit
nicer to each other around here lol)

 

[CryptoLutheran]

I won't lie, one of my huge loves--and obvious biases--toward the Lutheran tradition is that we don't have to "make Scripture come out right". By that I mean if we see that there is a Scripture that says X, and another that says Y, we're not required to rationalize one away or attempt to jump through complex hurdles to create a forced mess of biblical hermeneutics. Paradox is okay, nothing wrong with it.

The best example of this I can think of right now are the key differences between Lutheran and Reformed theology.

Calvinism says God elects some to salvation and some to damnation. That is, Double Predestination.

Lutheranism says God elects some to salvation.

The rational mind then asks, "If God has elected some, then doesn't that mean He's predestined everyone else to damnation?" Lutheranism's answer? Nope.

It's not rational, it is a paradox, and that's okay.

"Consequently, He has mercy upon whom He wills, and He hardens whom He wills. ... Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for a noble purpose and another for an ignoble one? What if God, wishing to show His wrath and make known His power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction?" - Romans 9:18,21-22

This is a classic Calvinist prooftext demonstrating that God has predestined some to eternal damnation; there are people whom He has created whose entire purpose is to be destroyed in eternal hellfire, and He has done this--supposedly--for His own glory.

However...

"For God delivered all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How inscrutable are His judgments and how unsearchable His ways!" - Romans 11:32-33

Which is it, does God create some for salvation and some for destruction or does God deliver all to disobedience so that He might have mercy on all?

The answer is yes.

We are neither robots eternally programmed by God to either be saved or damned based upon Divine Whimsy, nor are we creatures who are capable of choosing God out of our own fallen will. We are sinners, fallen, broken, we need a Good Physician, a Loving Savior, a Kind Father: and that is what we have in God who sends His Son to us, who graciously comes down to us in Word and Sacrament to save us. What we don't need is a God who is all glory but no grace, all sovereignty but no kindness.

From my side of the theological aisle, it seems Calvinism takes a bite out of Lutheranism, turns it into a clockwork machine filled with cold mechanical and rational consistency at the expense of the warmth, grace and mystery of the Gospel.

And, while that sounds like just about one of the harshest things one could say to a group of fellow brothers and sisters in Jesus short of proclaiming an anathema against them; I think sometimes bluntness is required.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I won't lie, one of my huge loves--and obvious biases--toward the Lutheran tradition is that we don't have to "make Scripture come out right".
By that I mean if we see that there is a Scripture that says X, and another that says Y, we're not required to rationalize one away or attempt to jump through complex hurdles to create a forced mess of biblical hermeneutics. Paradox is okay, nothing wrong with it.
-CryptoLutheran

That would appear to be the more simpler "way"

http://www.christianforums.com/f86/
Bibliology & Hermeneutics

http://www.christianforums.com/t7464293/
Does the Bible Need a Major Overhaul?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Interesting thread!

 

[plmarquette]

is not the apostles creed the sinners prayer....

is not the submission to and the direction of the church / pastor
the same thing as an altar call and repentance at the platform

Paul said do all speak in tongues, do all prophecy....many parts one body...
what does the local church do...bread line, giving, school....don't we all believe in
Jesus, God, Holy Spirit...

this type of arguement is backwards....first were catholics, second protestants 1000 years later....problem was with government, with form of government, with relationship to people ...feudal system....mess was not resolved until parlimentary process and democracy evovled....ending king and whims...

if God was behind reformation why did it fail to resolve 2-4-7 sacraments, common tenants of faith .... christian, reformed, lutheran, brethren.... huss, zwingli, calvin, luther....