After the Apostles

[mindlight]

After the death of John in around 100AD there were no more of the original apostles to inform and guide the church. That must have felt like a bit of a vacuum to many in the church. But the second century was a crucial stage in the formation of the church and it grew through that period.

I am interested in how the church met the challenges of heresy (e.g. Gnostics and Marcionites) and persecution (e.g. Trajan and Marcus Aurelius), agreed in practice on a canon for scripture and on basic doctrines, continued to spread the good news and built the hierarchies and institutional structures that have survived to this day e.g. the papacy, the bishops

What were the crucial moments in the decisions about which scriptures were authoritative and which not from this period?

How were the debates about who Jesus was resolved?

What doctrines were broadly agreed by this time e.g. apostles creed?

Who were the crucial personalities involved and which do you think had the biggest impact. For instance who made the most significant impact out of Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, Polycarp of Smynra, Ireneaus of Lyons?

EDIT: changed key heresy from Ebionite to Marcionite

 

[GodsGrace101]

After the death of John in around 100AD there were no more of the original apostles to inform and guide the church. That must have felt like a bit of a vacuum to many in the church. But the second century was a crucial stage in the formation of the church and it grew through that period.

I am interested in how the church met the challenges of heresy (e.g. Gnostics and Ebionites) and persecution (e.g. Trajan and Marcus Aurelius), agreed in practice on a canon for scripture and on basic doctrines, continued to spread the good news and built the hierarchies and institutional structures that have survived to this day e.g. the papacy, the bishops

What were the crucial moments in the decisions about which scriptures were authoritative and which not from this period?

How were the debates about who Jesus was resolved?

What doctrines were broadly agreed by this time e.g. apostles creed?

Who were the crucial personalities involved and which do you think had the biggest impact. For instance who made the most significant impact out of Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, Polycarp of Smynra, Ireneaus of Lyons?

Wow.
I think you need to enroll in a Christian History class!

When John died the other Apostles were already dead.
They had taught others, as it seems to me that you already know.
The others that were taught carried on with what the Apostles had begun.
Of course there were leaders among them and these leaders came to be known as Bishops...I'm talking about the year 100 and on.

The main Bishops, and most important persons, were in Jerusalem, Rome, Antioch, Alexandria and Constantinople. When there was a question about something,,,these persons were sought for advice.

Heresy was fought by those that followed the above...those that belonged to the true church...which was the catholic (universal) church back then. There was only one church (small c).

I personally believe the ECFs ended in 325 AD when Christianity was tolerated as a religion and then became the religion of Rome under another ruler...not Constantine (can't remember his name right now). After this, Christianity began to change and became polluted by politics.

Augustine, for instance, (400 AD) was great at discrediting heretics and this might be the reason he was so respected in the early church --- since he did have doctrine that did not agree with the previous beliefs of the church. For instance, on baptism of infants and predestination.

What you ask requires much study and unless there's an expert here, you will not have all your questions answered.

The above is just a powdering....

 

[mindlight]

Wow.
I think you need to enroll in a Christian History class!

When John died the other Apostles were already dead.
They had taught others, as it seems to me that you already know.
The others that were taught carried on with what the Apostles had begun.
Of course there were leaders among them and these leaders came to be known as Bishops...I'm talking about the year 100 and on.

The main Bishops, and most important persons, were in Jerusalem, Rome, Antioch, Alexandria and Constantinople. When there was a question about something,,,these persons were sought for advice.

Heresy was fought by those that followed the above...those that belonged to the true church...which was the catholic (universal) church back then. There was only one church (small c).

I personally believe the ECFs ended in 325 AD when Christianity was tolerated at a religion and then became the religion of Rome under another ruler...not Constantine (can't remember his name right now). After this, Christianity began to change and became polluted by politics.

Augustine, for instance, (400 AD) was great at discrediting heretics and this might be the reason he was so respected in the early church --- since he did have doctrine that did not agree with the previous beliefs of the church. For instance, on baptism of infants and predestination.

What you ask required much study and unless there's an expert here, you will not have all your questions answered.

The above is just a powdering....

Interesting response, thanks. Any ideas why these 5 cities were the ones that ended up so influential in the early church.

Rome was the capital of the empire and Paul and Peter died there
Jerusalem was where it all began but in the second century was only a shadow of its former glory
Alexandria was a population and learning centre and so makes some sense.
Constantinople did not exist in the second century
Antioch is a bit of a puzzle but Ignatius lived there.

But why not Lyons which had Ireneaus, Ephesus where John had lived and died or Smyrna which had Polycarp as bishop.

Did these centres develop because of their Christian significance or because of their geopolitical significance.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Interesting response, thanks. Any ideas why these 5 cities were the ones that ended up so influential in the early church.

Rome was the capital of the empire and Paul and Peter died there
Jerusalem was where it all began but in the second century was only a shadow of its former glory
Alexandria was a population and learning centre and so makes some sense.
Constantinople did not exist in the second century
Antioch is a bit of a puzzle but Ignatius lived there.

But why not Lyons which had Ireneaus, Ephesus where John had lived and died or Smyrna which had Polycarp as bishop.

Did these centres develop because of their Christian significance or because of their geopolitical significance.

My knowledge is very limited in comparison to the questions you ask.
Constantinople was always on the list of the 5 major centers of Christianity....
could you check this please? I think you'll find that it's correct.

Christianity had spread after the missionary journeys and as the new church Fathers (after the Apostles) became important and powerful. The centers were of geopolitical importance...so it would be natural for the important Christian leaders to be there....in order for Christianity to spread to "all the world".

You might be interested to know that the title Pope came from these 5 important Bishops; although every region had its own Bishop--these were not the only 5. These 5 Bishops were fondly called Papa. In about the year 600 it was decided that not all 5 could have the same power and so the Bishop of Rome (influenced by Peter) became The Pope and only HE was now to be called Papa,,which is Pope.

The Council of Nicea was officially called by Constantine because of the heresy of Arianism. Arias believed that Jesus was the Son of God, but that He did not exist prior to His earthly life. This became settled at the above council where Jesus was declared to have always existed....God's only begotten son.

There's so much to know...this really does require a lot of study...however, the very fact that you ask pertinent questions means you already know something about this.

I enjoy learning about the ECFs....I feel they know the best about what Jesus taught since they came right after the Apostolic fathers and learned from Peter and Paul.

 

[HTacianas]

After the death of John in around 100AD there were no more of the original apostles to inform and guide the church. That must have felt like a bit of a vacuum to many in the church. But the second century was a crucial stage in the formation of the church and it grew through that period.

I am interested in how the church met the challenges of heresy (e.g. Gnostics and Ebionites) and persecution (e.g. Trajan and Marcus Aurelius), agreed in practice on a canon for scripture and on basic doctrines, continued to spread the good news and built the hierarchies and institutional structures that have survived to this day e.g. the papacy, the bishops

What were the crucial moments in the decisions about which scriptures were authoritative and which not from this period?

How were the debates about who Jesus was resolved?

What doctrines were broadly agreed by this time e.g. apostles creed?

Who were the crucial personalities involved and which do you think had the biggest impact. For instance who made the most significant impact out of Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, Polycarp of Smynra, Ireneaus of Lyons?

The Church was not left in a vacuum at the end of the apostolic age. There are too many groups cropping up in modern times who tell people that. There is an unbroken chain of bishops originally appointed by the apostles who have led the Church since those times, see 1 Timothy 1:14.

Those you mentioned, Ignatius, Clement, etc., chose successors and that chain of succession exists today in Kiril of Moscow, Bartholomew of Constantinople, Francis of Rome, Tawadros II of Alexandria, among others.

 

[mindlight]

The Church was not left in a vacuum at the end of the apostolic age. There are too many groups cropping up in modern times who tell people that. There is an unbroken chain of bishops originally appointed by the apostles who have led the Church since those times, see 1 Timothy 1:14.

Those you mentioned, Ignatius, Clement, etc., chose successors and that chain of succession exists today in Kiril of Moscow, Bartholomew of Constantinople, Francis of Rome, Tawadros II of Alexandria, among others.

I agree with the apostolic sucession and regard it as unbroken through the bishops. So Orthodox , Catholic and indeed some Protestant churches have an unbroken chain.

But it was not uncontroversial at the time in the second century. That Clement had to write letters to the church in Corinth after Paul had already sent 2 showed the church continued to wrestle with heresies and divisions. How the right people ended up as bishops and the right books got selected for the canon was a work of God. Why Ebionite and Gnostic theories were rejected requires more than a God did it statement. People were raised up to secure the apostolic succession and the choice of scriptures. Martyrs died in the face of intense persecution by Trajan and Marcus Aurelius. As in every age it seems a miracle that the true church survives at all.

Also there was a vacuum comparable to the experience of the apostles after the Ascension. Ireneaus or Clement or Ignatius are not of the same stature or authority as the original apostles.

 

[mindlight]

My knowledge is very limited in comparison to the questions you ask.
Constantinople was always on the list of the 5 major centers of Christianity....
could you check this please? I think you'll find that it's correct.

Christianity had spread after the missionary journeys and as the new church Fathers (after the Apostles) became important and powerful. The centers were of geopolitical importance...so it would be natural for the important Christian leaders to be there....in order for Christianity to spread to "all the world".

You might be interested to know that the title Pope came from these 5 important Bishops; although every region had its own Bishop--these were not the only 5. These 5 Bishops were fondly called Papa. In about the year 600 it was decided that not all 5 could have the same power and so the Bishop of Rome (influenced by Peter) became The Pope and only HE was now to be called Papa,,which is Pope.

The Council of Nicea was officially called by Constantine because of the heresy of Arianism. Arias believed that Jesus was the Son of God, but that He did not exist prior to His earthly life. This became settled at the above council where Jesus was declared to have always existed....God's only begotten son.

There's so much to know...this really does require a lot of study...however, the very fact that you ask pertinent questions means you already know something about this.

I enjoy learning about the ECFs....I feel they know the best about what Jesus taught since they came right after the Apostolic fathers and learned from Peter and Paul.

All very interesting but my focus is on the second century. Constantinople did not exist until the fourth century.

 

[Albion]

I agree with the apostolic sucession and regard it as unbroken through the bishops. So Orthodox , Catholic and indeed some Protestant churches have an unbroken chain.

But it was not uncontroversial at the time in the second century. That Clement had to write letters to the church in Corinth after Paul had already sent 2 showed the church continued to wrestle with heresies and divisions.

The basic answer to your questions may lie with the fact that it took four centuries or so for all that you have been speaking of to settle in. It is not that the minute the last Apostle died, all the rest of this was in crisis mode.

Also there was a vacuum comparable to the experience of the apostles after the Ascension.

History doesn't support that view. Some churches that are usually considered to be cults promote such a concept, saying that without the actual Apostles, apostasy was inevitable and did take place. But in reality, the concept we call Apostolic Succession had already been accepted and was working.

Ireneaus or Clement or Ignatius are not of the same stature or authority as the original apostles.

That's probably so, but it doesn't mean that there was any "vacuum" (as you suggested there was).

 

[GodsGrace101]

The basic answer to your questions may lie with the fact that it took four centuries or so for all that you have been speaking of to settle in. It is not that the minute the last Apostle died, all the rest of this was in crisis mode.


History doesn't support that view. Some churches that are usually considered to be cults promote such a concept, saying that without the actual Apostles, apostasy was inevitable and did take place. But in reality, the concept we call Apostolic Succession had already been accepted and was working.


That's probably so, but it doesn't mean that there was any "vacuum" (as you suggested there was).

I'm not familiar with this cultish teaching...
but I do know that even while the Apostles were still alive, heresy was creeping in.
John was worried about gnostics and speaks of this in his gospel when he says "they were with us but they were not of us..."

 

[Albion]

I'm not familiar with this cultish teaching...
but I do know that even while the Apostles were still alive, heresy was creeping in.
John was worried about gnostics and speaks of this in his gospel when he says "they were with us but they were not of us..."

Absolutely. Apparently, there were 80 or more different varieties of Christianity in the first century alone, and this is logical if we think on it for a moment.

The fledgling church went into the world with only the bare bones of a doctrinal platform, was very much decentralized, and was under steady persecution from the political authorities. That it might have been able, from the first or second generation forward, to "run a tight ship" and/or enforce discipline across the whole of the Roman world flies in the face of all the known facts.

 

[Mathetes66]

Church history is a fascinating subject. The Lord Jesus Christ continues to build His church. The foundation of the apostles & the prophets, with Jesus being the chief cornerstone has been laid. Their teachings have been taken by the one church & household of the living God & have been used to build upon the foundation, pillars & supports, to bring about unity in the growing & maturing of the body of Christ, in the midst of spiritual warfare & enemies of the one true faith.

The Apostles built upon the foundation of Christ & His teachings, teaching faithful disciples to obey what they were taught & to teach it to others, who in turn would teach faithful men & so on. That is going on right up to today.

The one true church that Jesus is STILL continuing to build was taught they were in a spiritual warfare & needed to contend for the one deposit of faith they adhered to, that was once for all delivered to the saints for safekeeping.

False teachers & prophets would seek to infiltrate the church & distort the truth & ravage the sheep. The early church for the first 20 years was Jewish Christians only, centered in Jerusalem until the Apostle Peter was used to open the door of salvation to the Gentiles & was carried on further by the Apostle Paul & his co-workers 'in the kingdom of God.'

What a place to be then...and what a place we find ourselves in today...continuing to fight the good fight, running with perseverance the race, to finish it & to keep the deposit of the faith once for all delivered to the saints, for preservation for future generations of disciples & followers of Christ.

The Most High God used the prophets & the apostles & the holy scribes & writers, to bring to us the Holy Scriptures. They are the reminder, they are the one deposit of the faith, given to the apostolic churches, to preserve & to be God's revelation, which we are to proclaim in all the nations, to the ends of the earth--until Jesus' return! The Spirit & the Bride say, "COME!"

2 Timothy 4:7,8 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. From now on the crown of righteousness is laid up for me, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that day & not only to me, but also to all those loving His appearing.

And Jesus came & spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven & on earth. As you are going, make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father & of the Son & of the Holy Spirit, TEACHING THEM TO OBEY ALL THINGS THAT I HAVE COMMANDED YOU & lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

2 Timothy 2:1-7 You therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. And the things that you have heard from me among MANY witnesses, commit THESE to faithful men who will be able to TEACH OTHERS ALSO. You therefore MUST ENDURE HARDSHIP as a good soldier of Jesus Christ. No one ENGAGED IN WARFARE entangles himself with the affairs of this life, that he may please him who enlisted him as a soldier.

And also if anyone competes in athletics, he is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules. The hardworking farmer must be first to partake of the crops. Consider what I say & may THE LORD GIVE YOU UNDERSTANDING IN ALL THINGS.

Matt 13:52 Then He told them, "For this reason, every SCRIBE who has been DISCIPLED in the kingdom of heaven is like a homeowner who brings out of his storeroom new treasures as well as old."

I Timothy 3:14-16 These things I write to you, though I hope to come to you shortly; but if I am DELAYED, I WRITE--so that you may know HOW you ought to conduct yourself in THE HOUSEHOLD of God, which is THE CHURCH of the living God, the PILLAR {Gal 2:9;Rev 10:1--3X only} AND STABILITY {1X here, to make stable, a support of} of the truth. And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:

God was manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up in glory.

2 Pet 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even DENYING THE LORD WHO BOUGHT THEM & upon themselves swift destruction.

Jude 1:3,4,17-19 Beloved, although I made every effort to write to you about THE COMMON SALVATION, I felt it necessary to write & urge you to CONTEND EARNESTLY FOR THE FAITH--ENTRUSTED ONCE--FOR ALL THE SAINTS. For there did come in unobserved certain men, long ago having been written beforehand to this judgment, impious--the GRACE of our God perverting it to lasciviousness & DENYING OUR ONLY MASTER, GOD & LORD, JESUS CHRIST...

But you, beloved, remember what was FORETOLD BY THE APOSTLES of our Lord Jesus Christ when they said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow after their own ungodly desires.” These are the ones who CAUSE DIVISIONS, WHO ARE WORLDLY & DEVOID OF THE SPIRIT.

For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith virtue & to virtue, knowledge & to knowledge, self-control & to self-control, perseverance &to perseverance, godliness & to godliness, brotherly kindness & to brotherly kindness, love.

8For if you possess these qualities & continue to grow in them, they will keep you from being ineffective & unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But whoever lacks THESE TRAITS is nearsighted to the point of blindness, having forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.

10Therefore, brothers, be all the more eager TO MAKE YOUR CALLING & ELECTION SURE. For if you practice these things you will never stumble & you will receive a lavish reception into the eternal kingdom of our Lord & Savior Jesus Christ.

12Therefore, I will always REMIND YOU OF THESE THINGS, even though you know them & are established in the truth you now have. I think it is right to REFRESH YOUR MEMORY as long as I live in the tent of my body, since I know that it will soon be laid aside, as our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. And I will make EVERY EFFORT TO ENSURE THAT AFTER MY DEPARTURE, YOU WILL BE ABLE TO RECALL THESE THINGS AT ALL TIMES.

Ephesians 4:1-16 As a prisoner in the Lord, then, I urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling you have received: with all humility & gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace.

4There is one body & one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God & Father of all, who is over all & through all & in all. Now to each one of us grace has been given according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

8This is why it says: “When He ascended on high, He led captives away & gave gifts to men..." And it was He who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists & some to be pastors & teachers, to EQUIP THE SAINTS FOR WORKS OF MINISTRY, to BUILD UP the body of Christ, until we all REACH THE UNITY IN THE FAITH & in the knowledge of the Son of God, as we MATURE TO THE FULL MEASURE OF THE STATURE OF CHRIST.

14THEN--we will no longer be INFANTS, tossed about by the waves & carried around by EVERY WIND OF TEACHING & by the clever cunning of men in their deceitful scheming. Instead, SPEAKING THE TRUTH IN LOVE, we will in all things GROW UP INTO CHRIST HIMSELF, who is the head.

16From Him the whole body, fitted & held together by every supporting ligament, grows & builds itself up IN LOVE THROUGH THE WORK OF EACH INDIVIDUAL PART.

I Pet 2:5 You also, like living stones, are being built into a SPIRITUAL HOUSE to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.


The amazing thing is that the Apostles of our only Master, God & Lord--Jesus Christ--made sure that the coming generations of disciples & those of the:

ONE eternal kingdom with ONE King, ONE flock with ONE Shepherd & ONE Lord, ONE spiritual household, ONE holy congregation, ONE dwelling place of God in the Spirit, ONE body, ONE church that Jesus is STILL building, ONE holy temple, ONE building of God, ONE new man in Christ, ONE bride, ONE faith we all believe & follow that was ONCE DELIVERED TO THE SAINTS, ONE baptism (of the Spirit that Jesus does, that baptizes every believer into the one body of Christ), ONE group of believers, both Jew & Gentile into ONE, ONE holy nation, ONE people for God's holy possession--AND THE LIST GOES ON from Genesis to Revelation--

would have the one deposit of faith, found written in the Scriptures, in order to preserve & proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ to be obeyed, to every human being at the ends of the earth.

The historical record of the church of Jesus Christ has been laid out before us, how was it carried out in times past--& how are we doing in this day & period in history, in accomplishing what are Lord has designed for us to do--occupying until His return?

We are in a constant spiritual warfare to see the one body of Christ , the church, grow up in the unity of the Spirit & building itself up in love, into maturity, into the stature of the fullness of Christ. We have had a warfare in the transmission of & in the preservation of the Scriptures. We continue to have spiritual warfare in being a witness, salt & light in the world we live in.

We have gone from the Scriptural teaching of a plurality of servant leadership & gifted people & their offices, to a singularity of leadership, the error of the Nicolaitans.

Titus 1:5-9 The reason I left you in Crete was that you would set in order what was unfinished & APPOINT ELDERS IN EVERY TOWN, as I directed you. An OVERSEER must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, having children who are believers & who are not open to accusation of indiscretion or insubordination. 7As God’s steward, a BISHOP must be above reproach—not self-absorbed, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not greedy for money.

8Instead, he must be hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy & disciplined. He must HOLD FIRMLY TO THE FAITHFUL WORD AS IT WAS TAUGHT, so that he can ENCOURAGE OTHERS by SOUND TEACHING & REFUTE THOSE WHO CONTRADICT IT.

We have gone from being members of one another, brethren, to denominationalism & to groups claiming they are the ONLY one, to the exclusion of the rest of the brethren.

Neither is correct. In the midst of these divisions, Jesus is STILL BUILDING HIS CHURCH, His true saints, His remnant, who will be taken OUT OF the false structures & identified as the wheat in the midst of the chaff.

We have gone from building ourselves up in love, in the unity of the Spirit, to a divided body of Christ, anemic in their witness to the world.

Jesus, the prophets & the apostles all predicted this. What can we do about it?

Follow the instruction manual, maintain plurality of servant leadership, proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ to the ends of the earth, teaching the disciples to obey all that Christ commanded, always being diligent to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bonds of peace & love--until He comes!

 

[mindlight]

The basic answer to your questions may lie with the fact that it took four centuries or so for all that you have been speaking of to settle in. It is not that the minute the last Apostle died, all the rest of this was in crisis mode.

Of course 20-20 vision is perfect in hindsight. But there was a process that led to the Church councils and the finalisation of the canon. Also there were those who understood how God was leading the church and those who were standing in the way of that.

History doesn't support that view. Some churches that are usually considered to be cults promote such a concept, saying that without the actual Apostles, apostasy was inevitable and did take place. But in reality, the concept we call Apostolic Succession had already been accepted and was working.

Clearly Gnostics and Marcionites would have opposed the apostlic ordination choices. That the succession was preserved and the apostolic teachings recognised and affirmed through the chaos and conflicts of those years is the real miracle here. I guess I am trying to understand the decision points, personalities and conflicting viewpoints of those years. The stakes were eternal.

That's probably so, but it doesn't mean that there was any "vacuum" (as you suggested there was).

Jesus was more substantial than Peter who was a greater personality than Clement of Rome it is uncontroversial for someone who knew Christ to say that noone else could fill the space created by his departure

EDIT: Changed Ebionite to Marcionite

 

[mindlight]

Absolutely. Apparently, there were 80 or more different varieties of Christianity in the first century alone, and this is logical if we think on it for a moment.

The fledgling church went into the world with only the bare bones of a doctrinal platform, was very much decentralized, and was under steady persecution from the political authorities. That it might have been able, from the first or second generation forward, to "run a tight ship" and/or enforce discipline across the whole of the Roman world flies in the face of all the known facts.

Yes the discipline that came with an Emperors overview and the state church was not there in that crucial second century. The theological debate was more open and alive and its outcomes more unpredictable. But there were men with a grasp of Gods will and truth that nonetheless managed to steer the church through those times , setting boundaries against the heretics that threatened the churches witness.

 

[Albion]

Of course 20-20 vision is perfect in hindsight. But there was a process that led to the Church councils and the finalisation of the canon. Also there were those who understood how God was leading the church and those who were standing in the way of that.

It may look that way now, and it will naturally be described that way by certain churches which want to claim to be the modern-day continuation of whatever the ancient church was, but all the evidence is that the process was not nearly that orderly.

early Gnostics and Ebionites would have opposed the apostlic ordination choices.

If so, what would the significance of that be?

That the succession was preserved and the apostolic teachings recognised and affirmed through the chaos and conflicts of those years is the real miracle here.

Why would a succession of leadership have to be a "miracle??" All sorts of organizations can point to the same thing as characterizing in their own past.

I guess I am trying to understand the decision points, personalities and conflicting viewpoints of those years.

Sure. That's to be applauded.

 

[Athanasius377]

After the death of John in around 100AD there were no more of the original apostles to inform and guide the church. That must have felt like a bit of a vacuum to many in the church. But the second century was a crucial stage in the formation of the church and it grew through that period.

I am interested in how the church met the challenges of heresy (e.g. Gnostics and Ebionites) and persecution (e.g. Trajan and Marcus Aurelius), agreed in practice on a canon for scripture and on basic doctrines, continued to spread the good news and built the hierarchies and institutional structures that have survived to this day e.g. the papacy, the bishops

What were the crucial moments in the decisions about which scriptures were authoritative and which not from this period?

How were the debates about who Jesus was resolved?

What doctrines were broadly agreed by this time e.g. apostles creed?

Who were the crucial personalities involved and which do you think had the biggest impact. For instance who made the most significant impact out of Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, Polycarp of Smynra, Ireneaus of Lyons?

This is a multi part question that someone could (and have) written volumes about. I would recommend two things. First visit www.newadvent.com. This is a treasure trove of writings of the early church fathers. You can donate about 20 bucks and download the entire library. You cannot I’m my opinion exhaust this library for information on the ECF. They belong to the church catholic not just Rome.

another great book is JND Kelley’s “Ancient Christian Doctrines”. This can serve as a roadmap for reading the fathers. There are sections that are a little dated but the scholarship is top notch. It’s not an easy read but well worth the effort. Learn directly from primary sources not what someone thinks.

 

[mindlight]

Absolutely. Apparently, there were 80 or more different varieties of Christianity in the first century alone, and this is logical if we think on it for a moment.

The fledgling church went into the world with only the bare bones of a doctrinal platform, was very much decentralized, and was under steady persecution from the political authorities. That it might have been able, from the first or second generation forward, to "run a tight ship" and/or enforce discipline across the whole of the Roman world flies in the face of all the known facts.

Having spent an extra day thinking and researching about this think I can give a more concrete answer to this and really the answer I was looking for from this thread.

There are various heretics and controversies that created decision points in the crucial early ECF period. The ways in which the church responded to these controversies marked its true and straight course through the century.

1) Clement of Romes decision to overrule the high handed and unjust decision of the church of Corinth to remove various leaders who had done no moral wrongs. This decision articulated in 1 Clement asserted the bishopric of Romes authority and also affirmed hierarchies established by the apostles or successors of the apostles. Local churches were shown to be accountable to a global church and Christian argument.

2) The Epistle of Polycarp critique of Docetism in about 135-137 AD. Affirming that Jesus came in the flesh 1 John 4:3

3) The condemnation of Marcion by Rome in 144 and his heresy. This upheld the place of the OT and also affirmed that there was no discontinuity between the Jewish and Christian God

4) The selection of Anicetus as Bishop of Rome in 155 AD even though the Gnostic heretic Valentinius was a front runner for that position at the time. This could have been a disaster for the church had it gone the other way.

5) The writing of Against Heresies by Ireneas in about 180 AD denouncing the Gnosticism of Valentinius and the heresy of Marcion and affirming healthy Christian positions on the authority and teaching of the bishops, that creation was not inherently evil and would be perfected, that Jesus had a resuurection body, that the Jewish God was the same as the One that sent Jesus to us

There was also the steadfast resilience of the church in the face of Roman persecution with a great many of the bishops of Rome including Clement being martyred along with Ignatius and Polycarp. This was the time of the 5 "good" emperors when Roman power and self belief were at their greatest, but the church expanded rapidly even despite this.

 

[mindlight]

Church history is a fascinating subject. The Lord Jesus Christ continues to build His church. The foundation of the apostles & the prophets, with Jesus being the chief cornerstone has been laid. Their teachings have been taken by the one church & household of the living God & have been used to build upon the foundation, pillars & supports, to bring about unity in the growing & maturing of the body of Christ, in the midst of spiritual warfare & enemies of the one true faith.

The Apostles built upon the foundation of Christ & His teachings, teaching faithful disciples to obey what they were taught & to teach it to others, who in turn would teach faithful men & so on. That is going on right up to today.

The one true church that Jesus is STILL continuing to build was taught they were in a spiritual warfare & needed to contend for the one deposit of faith they adhered to, that was once for all delivered to the saints for safekeeping.

False teachers & prophets would seek to infiltrate the church & distort the truth & ravage the sheep. The early church for the first 20 years was Jewish Christians only, centered in Jerusalem until the Apostle Peter was used to open the door of salvation to the Gentiles & was carried on further by the Apostle Paul & his co-workers 'in the kingdom of God.'

What a place to be then...and what a place we find ourselves in today...continuing to fight the good fight, running with perseverance the race, to finish it & to keep the deposit of the faith once for all delivered to the saints, for preservation for future generations of disciples & followers of Christ.

The Most High God used the prophets & the apostles & the holy scribes & writers, to bring to us the Holy Scriptures. They are the reminder, they are the one deposit of the faith, given to the apostolic churches, to preserve & to be God's revelation, which we are to proclaim in all the nations, to the ends of the earth--until Jesus' return! The Spirit & the Bride say, "COME!"

2 Timothy 4:7,8 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. From now on the crown of righteousness is laid up for me, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that day & not only to me, but also to all those loving His appearing.

And Jesus came & spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven & on earth. As you are going, make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father & of the Son & of the Holy Spirit, TEACHING THEM TO OBEY ALL THINGS THAT I HAVE COMMANDED YOU & lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

2 Timothy 2:1-7 You therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. And the things that you have heard from me among MANY witnesses, commit THESE to faithful men who will be able to TEACH OTHERS ALSO. You therefore MUST ENDURE HARDSHIP as a good soldier of Jesus Christ. No one ENGAGED IN WARFARE entangles himself with the affairs of this life, that he may please him who enlisted him as a soldier.

And also if anyone competes in athletics, he is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules. The hardworking farmer must be first to partake of the crops. Consider what I say & may THE LORD GIVE YOU UNDERSTANDING IN ALL THINGS.

Matt 13:52 Then He told them, "For this reason, every SCRIBE who has been DISCIPLED in the kingdom of heaven is like a homeowner who brings out of his storeroom new treasures as well as old."

I Timothy 3:14-16 These things I write to you, though I hope to come to you shortly; but if I am DELAYED, I WRITE--so that you may know HOW you ought to conduct yourself in THE HOUSEHOLD of God, which is THE CHURCH of the living God, the PILLAR {Gal 2:9;Rev 10:1--3X only} AND STABILITY {1X here, to make stable, a support of} of the truth. And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:

God was manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up in glory.

2 Pet 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even DENYING THE LORD WHO BOUGHT THEM & upon themselves swift destruction.

Jude 1:3,4,17-19 Beloved, although I made every effort to write to you about THE COMMON SALVATION, I felt it necessary to write & urge you to CONTEND EARNESTLY FOR THE FAITH--ENTRUSTED ONCE--FOR ALL THE SAINTS. For there did come in unobserved certain men, long ago having been written beforehand to this judgment, impious--the GRACE of our God perverting it to lasciviousness & DENYING OUR ONLY MASTER, GOD & LORD, JESUS CHRIST...

But you, beloved, remember what was FORETOLD BY THE APOSTLES of our Lord Jesus Christ when they said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow after their own ungodly desires.” These are the ones who CAUSE DIVISIONS, WHO ARE WORLDLY & DEVOID OF THE SPIRIT.

For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith virtue & to virtue, knowledge & to knowledge, self-control & to self-control, perseverance &to perseverance, godliness & to godliness, brotherly kindness & to brotherly kindness, love.

8For if you possess these qualities & continue to grow in them, they will keep you from being ineffective & unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But whoever lacks THESE TRAITS is nearsighted to the point of blindness, having forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.

10Therefore, brothers, be all the more eager TO MAKE YOUR CALLING & ELECTION SURE. For if you practice these things you will never stumble & you will receive a lavish reception into the eternal kingdom of our Lord & Savior Jesus Christ.

12Therefore, I will always REMIND YOU OF THESE THINGS, even though you know them & are established in the truth you now have. I think it is right to REFRESH YOUR MEMORY as long as I live in the tent of my body, since I know that it will soon be laid aside, as our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. And I will make EVERY EFFORT TO ENSURE THAT AFTER MY DEPARTURE, YOU WILL BE ABLE TO RECALL THESE THINGS AT ALL TIMES.

Ephesians 4:1-16 As a prisoner in the Lord, then, I urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling you have received: with all humility & gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace.

4There is one body & one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God & Father of all, who is over all & through all & in all. Now to each one of us grace has been given according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

8This is why it says: “When He ascended on high, He led captives away & gave gifts to men..." And it was He who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists & some to be pastors & teachers, to EQUIP THE SAINTS FOR WORKS OF MINISTRY, to BUILD UP the body of Christ, until we all REACH THE UNITY IN THE FAITH & in the knowledge of the Son of God, as we MATURE TO THE FULL MEASURE OF THE STATURE OF CHRIST.

14THEN--we will no longer be INFANTS, tossed about by the waves & carried around by EVERY WIND OF TEACHING & by the clever cunning of men in their deceitful scheming. Instead, SPEAKING THE TRUTH IN LOVE, we will in all things GROW UP INTO CHRIST HIMSELF, who is the head.

16From Him the whole body, fitted & held together by every supporting ligament, grows & builds itself up IN LOVE THROUGH THE WORK OF EACH INDIVIDUAL PART.

I Pet 2:5 You also, like living stones, are being built into a SPIRITUAL HOUSE to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.


The amazing thing is that the Apostles of our only Master, God & Lord--Jesus Christ--made sure that the coming generations of disciples & those of the:

ONE eternal kingdom with ONE King, ONE flock with ONE Shepherd & ONE Lord, ONE spiritual household, ONE holy congregation, ONE dwelling place of God in the Spirit, ONE body, ONE church that Jesus is STILL building, ONE holy temple, ONE building of God, ONE new man in Christ, ONE bride, ONE faith we all believe & follow that was ONCE DELIVERED TO THE SAINTS, ONE baptism (of the Spirit that Jesus does, that baptizes every believer into the one body of Christ), ONE group of believers, both Jew & Gentile into ONE, ONE holy nation, ONE people for God's holy possession--AND THE LIST GOES ON from Genesis to Revelation--

would have the one deposit of faith, found written in the Scriptures, in order to preserve & proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ to be obeyed, to every human being at the ends of the earth.

The historical record of the church of Jesus Christ has been laid out before us, how was it carried out in times past--& how are we doing in this day & period in history, in accomplishing what are Lord has designed for us to do--occupying until His return?

We are in a constant spiritual warfare to see the one body of Christ , the church, grow up in the unity of the Spirit & building itself up in love, into maturity, into the stature of the fullness of Christ. We have had a warfare in the transmission of & in the preservation of the Scriptures. We continue to have spiritual warfare in being a witness, salt & light in the world we live in.

Amen to all of that. Yes there was enough substance from scripture , from those the apostles taught and trained to lead alone to propel the church through the difficult second century.

We have gone from the Scriptural teaching of a plurality of servant leadership & gifted people & their offices, to a singularity of leadership, the error of the Nicolaitans.

Titus 1:5-9 The reason I left you in Crete was that you would set in order what was unfinished & APPOINT ELDERS IN EVERY TOWN, as I directed you. An OVERSEER must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, having children who are believers & who are not open to accusation of indiscretion or insubordination. 7As God’s steward, a BISHOP must be above reproach—not self-absorbed, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not greedy for money.

8Instead, he must be hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy & disciplined. He must HOLD FIRMLY TO THE FAITHFUL WORD AS IT WAS TAUGHT, so that he can ENCOURAGE OTHERS by SOUND TEACHING & REFUTE THOSE WHO CONTRADICT IT.

We have gone from being members of one another, brethren, to denominationalism & to groups claiming they are the ONLY one, to the exclusion of the rest of the brethren.

Neither is correct. In the midst of these divisions, Jesus is STILL BUILDING HIS CHURCH, His true saints, His remnant, who will be taken OUT OF the false structures & identified as the wheat in the midst of the chaff.

We have gone from building ourselves up in love, in the unity of the Spirit, to a divided body of Christ, anemic in their witness to the world.

Jesus, the prophets & the apostles all predicted this. What can we do about it?

Follow the instruction manual, maintain plurality of servant leadership, proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ to the ends of the earth, teaching the disciples to obey all that Christ commanded, always being diligent to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bonds of peace & love--until He comes!

I agree that false unities and false divisions can be resolved by the true church. Indeed the church of the second century achieved this very successfully.

 

[mindlight]

It may look that way now, and it will naturally be described that way by certain churches which want to claim to be the modern-day continuation of whatever the ancient church was, but all the evidence is that the process was not nearly that orderly.

I see a triumph of true order over heresy, division and persecution. The right decisions were made at the crucial moments and sober minded leaders retained the centre ground over heretics like Marcion and Valentinius. Indeed the apostolic succession was maintained despite repeated martyrdoms of key church figures including most of the bishops of Rome in that century.

If so, what would the significance of that be?

Had Valentinius become Bishop of Rome in 155 that could have overthrown many of the crucial appointments of leaders at a key moment in the churches history. Similarly the opposition to Marcionism preserved the true apostolic teaching authority of the church.

Why would a succession of leadership have to be a "miracle??" All sorts of organizations can point to the same thing as characterizing in their own past.

A succession of true and faithful leaders distinguishes the church from all other organisations.

Sure. That's to be applauded.

Thanks

 

[mindlight]

This is a multi part question that someone could (and have) written volumes about. I would recommend two things. First visit www.newadvent.com. This is a treasure trove of writings of the early church fathers. You can donate about 20 bucks and download the entire library. You cannot I’m my opinion exhaust this library for information on the ECF. They belong to the church catholic not just Rome.

another great book is JND Kelley’s “Ancient Christian Doctrines”. This can serve as a roadmap for reading the fathers. There are sections that are a little dated but the scholarship is top notch. It’s not an easy read but well worth the effort. Learn directly from primary sources not what someone thinks.

Thanks for the list I would add Walter Wagners "After the Apostles" which I have purchased and plan to read when it arrives

 

[mindlight]

I'm not familiar with this cultish teaching...
but I do know that even while the Apostles were still alive, heresy was creeping in.
John was worried about gnostics and speaks of this in his gospel when he says "they were with us but they were not of us..."

Yes Johns gospel was written in part to address the heresy of Cerinthus who had much in common with later Gnostics. The separation of spirit and body were a problem in Greek thought generally but since Greek thought dominated the empires culture this was a necessary battle for the church to struggle with and ultimately overcome.