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After many years, I think I finally understand why I disagree

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by TheWhat?, Oct 19, 2021.

  1. TheWhat?

    TheWhat? Ate all the treats

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    Jesus grew in wisdom (Luke 2:52), and Paul was converted. Jesus later expounds on Isaiah 6:

    [Mat 13:15 NKJV] 15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull. [Their] ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with [their] eyes and hear with [their] ears, Lest they should understand with [their] hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.'

    ..which is both an empirical and mystical statement.
     
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  2. TheWhat?

    TheWhat? Ate all the treats

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    .
     
  3. The Liturgist

    The Liturgist Traditional Liturgical Christian Supporter

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    Indeed.
     
  4. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    It's called revelation. . .a lot of which is figurative. . .so were the parables.

    Do we need another layer of nomenclature?
     
  5. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    The Bible is for all people (Including Winfried Corduan). For God is not willing that any should perish but that all should could come to repentance. Anyways, you made Winfried as if he was on equal authority with the writers of Scripture (which is simply not the case).

    I read a book review on his mystic book. I also read his own short description of his mystic book, too. Does not sound like something I want to read.

    https://tottministries.org/mysticism-an-evangelical-option-by-winfried-corduan/
    Win Corduan's Mysticism

    Why? Well, what is the point in trying to resurrect an old out to date word like “mysticism” that is now associated with that which is evil with many? What is there to gain by doing so? Can we just read and study the Bible instead and make that our sole authority?

    I do read articles by other believers on occasion so as to seek out a truth I am studying in Scripture. As for reading Christian books: Well, I would encourage believers to first study the Word on their own with God first if they can. They can discuss the Word with other believers, and ask the Lord for help in understanding His Word. Books have a way of sucking the reader into their way of thinking. I believe that a Christian should at least have a handle on the core truths in the New Testament before tackling any additional heavy reading. Why? Because of the problem that we are running into right now. Folks think it is okay to use the word “mysticism” in Christianity today. Yes, yes, I know it was a word once used in the past, but we are not living in the past and it was not a word used in the Bible, either. We have to go by how people view that word today and it is primarily negative (when asking your average joe on the street).

    The word “gay” used to mean happy, but most people would not say that word today at work because it has an entirely different meaning and could get one into trouble for using such a word. But in the past, it had an acceptance because it meant something different. That’s my point.

    Some Christians do not have a problem with things like contemplative prayer, labyrinths, etc. (which I believe are New Age practices).
     
  6. Fervent

    Fervent Well-Known Member

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    First, you say "Bible Alone" so where does the Bible say "Bible Alone?" And you seem comfortable calling it sola scriptura, where may I find those words in the Bible?

    What Jesus was objecting to was not Pharisaical interpretations/theological terminology for the sake of expressing ideas. What Jesus objected to was the halakah, which was a set of additional rules that were supposed to "build a hedge" around the Biblical laws under the guise of making it so no one would be able to even accidentally violate the law. We could apply this to something like canon law, certainly, but it doesn't really apply to using theological terms which simply bind together Biblical ideas.




    First, I don't want to take anything away from what you are doing. I'm glad you have grown to reject things that you believed based on your reading of Scripture and encourage you to continue to develop and grow in your knowledge of it. But we don't read anything in a vacuum, we bring assumptions and a background of ideas to anything we read and we are not always aware of what they are. On top of that, the translation we're reading also is likely to influence certain things because there are a number of passages for which the right way to translate them is debateable and one of the considerations for translation is theology. So there may be theological lenses to the translation that the English reader doesn't know.



    Okay...but where do you find it in the Bible? And if its not in the Bible, how can you say Bible Alone?

    As for changing the English, there's a couple wrinkles there. First, words change meaning all the time. At one time literal meant that it really happened. Now it not only means it really happened, but also can be used to express exageration. So over time, the meanings of the words shift and what was intended in translation no longer applies. Just read 1 Peter in the KJV where "conversation" is used to refer to conduct to see this very thing in action.
     
  7. Petros2015

    Petros2015 Well-Known Member

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  8. TheWhat?

    TheWhat? Ate all the treats

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    I have not yet come to understand hesychasm, although I do think Eastern Orthodox spirituality really shines through in their liturgy, and it's nice to sneak a listen to the Jesus Prayer every once in a while. Pseudo-Dionysius is a new interest of mine, and I still have yet to digest the whole of his writings. On the subject of mysticism, though, I do really enjoy the way it has inspired the arts in christian tradition. The illumined Book of Kells is a personal favorite of mine.

    I'm relatively novice as it pertains to the multitude of traditions out there, so a number of these things elude me, but it has been an ongoing area of interest.
     
  9. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    First, I provided a link to Scriptural points in defense for Bible Alone.

    If you missed it, here is the link to that thread that mentions those points.

    A Biblical Defense of Sola Scriptura!

    Note: For me, my point on 2 Timothy 3:16-17 is a big one. But really it comes down to a fruits or evidence test. Does a person’s extra biblical mumbo jumbo hold any evidence as being as divine as Holy Scripture? In my experience, I would say not.

    Second, if there is no one nailed down Word of God for people to understand then it is the reader is in the seat of God who dictates what God’s Word says. People sometimes act like they need to piece together what God said (as if we do not have the Word of God that is understandable). People make understanding the Word as if it was like trying to decipher hieroglyphics. Such a thing is not needed. People make God as if He was the God of the dead (a God of the past with His Word existing only in the dead past), when God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. His Word is living and active today and can be understood. God is not the author of confusion. There are no riddles and or hoops to jump threw to understand God’s Word.

    Three, as for the KJB: Yes, I am actually working on my own KJB bible commentary (currently for my own study but may be available to the public). It’s sort of like the “Defined King James Bible” but different. So I am well aware of the differences between Early Modern English (1600’s English), and Late Modern English. Words do change with the passage of time, but the point is that we can understand English and it is harder to pull the wool over other people’s eyes with the English vs. the original languages (Which nobody technically really knows because we do not have a Moses or an apostle Paul around to correct us).
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2021
  10. Petros2015

    Petros2015 Well-Known Member

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    You might really enjoy the book The Orthodox Way (I quoted from earlier) and possibly Our Thoughts Determine our Lives by Elder Thaddeus. Our Thoughts Determine Our Lives Quotes by Ana Smiljanic

    If you can get it, the author of the Orthodox Way, Metropolitan Kallistos Ware had a CD set of lectures on the Eastern Orthodox Liturgy called Heaven on Earth. It was (and is) amazing. Looks like some of those are available on youtube, I highly recommend them if you want to explore the liturgical significance and nuances. I was taken aback by his voice at first, but as I listened I came to love them, and I had no idea initially I was listening to lectures being given by the author of the books that I loved.

     
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  11. The Liturgist

    The Liturgist Traditional Liturgical Christian Supporter

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    Indeed, I love the Orthodox Way and I love the lectures given by Metropolitan Kallistos.
     
  12. 2PhiloVoid

    2PhiloVoid Eccentric Eclectic Existentialist at work! Supporter

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    You'll need to fill me in on why you've stated this in just this specific way in relation to Winfried Corduan. It's almost as if you don't know that Corduan is already Christian, a Christian philosopher and apologist who has been an associate of the late Norman Geisler. So, it sounds to me like you're making an unnecessary dig at a fellow Christian. Surely you weren't intending on doing that, right?

    No, I didn't, actually. That's simply your bad interpretation about what it is you think I've said.

    But whatever ... :dontcare:

    ... I think we can close this convo with each other here since you seem to think you're the superior man in this spiritual ship. And in the same way that you've refused to engage much of anything I've said, I'm more than happy to return the favor. :cool:

    Cheers!

    By the way, that book review you found didn't adequately review Corduan's book, so the review rather sucked in my estimation.
     
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  13. Petros2015

    Petros2015 Well-Known Member

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    I've long suspected that one of the subtler differences between Heaven and Hell is that one of them has a Mute button and the other does not ;)

     
  14. Fervent

    Fervent Well-Known Member

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    You seem to have missed my point, because it is not that I disagree with Bible alone/sola scriptura as a principle it is that you seemed to have an issue with "mysticism" based on it not being Biblical terminology. So where is the terminology you use of "Bible alone" in the Bible? And if the terminology is not in the Bible, then how is that terminology "Bible alone" as you have laid it out?
     
  15. The Liturgist

    The Liturgist Traditional Liturgical Christian Supporter

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    Hey, I like Fred Astaire. He was an incredible actor, not to mention a classic Vaudevillian song-and-dance man.
     
  16. Petros2015

    Petros2015 Well-Known Member

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    Me too, how can one not? I think maybe the only full film I have ever seen him in was Holiday Inn, which was great, though it includes a female blackface number which was quite a culture shock watching it in the 2010's. I have no idea how they did "Say it with Firecrackers" without blowing his feet off lol. Rehearsals must have been fun ;)



    Astaire's life has never been portrayed on film. He always refused permission for such portrayals, saying, "However much they offer me—and offers come in all the time—I shall not sell." Astaire's will included a clause requesting that no such portrayal ever take place; he commented, "It is there because I have no particular desire to have my life misinterpreted, which it would be."

    Smart man :)
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2021
  17. Isaac Jones

    Isaac Jones New Member

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    Agreed. That is a beauty we find in Job; I read through it, saying “I get that friend’s logic.” And every time I am rebuked at the end. I do not have wisdom great enough as a human. How great that one day we get to meet God, be made perfect, and can spend an eternity worshipping and learning His complexities and creativity in the unity of love.
     
  18. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Well, you asked me what do I have to do with the Bible. It’s the same reason that all men need the Bible including Winfried. All believers need God’s grace. They are required to throw themselves down before the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ in the proper due times out of their life. For are we not all supposed to be running the race so as to obtain the prize as mentioned by the apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 9:24? This is why we need God’s Word (the Bible).

    I never said he was not Christian. I am saying that all believers need the Bible from the beginning of their life up until the end of their lives. It is their lifeline to God when they pray, and when they love God and others, and when they desire to draw closer to the Lord.

    But we have to be careful in uplifting a man. Paul warned us of this in 1 Corinthians 3 with the Corinthians. For some said, I am of Paul, and others said, I am of Apollos. We are nothing in and of ourselves. It is only God who is the source of all good. All good done in our lives should be reflected back at God. All praise should be given unto our Lord for any good in any life of a Christian.

    Not at all. I prefer to attack the wrong beliefs, actions, etc. and not the individual. Sometimes they can seem indistinguishable, but we really do need to pray and love all people in our lives even when they might hurt us or when their beliefs are absolutely deplorable to us. I care for Winfried as a person and I am commanded by God to love him. I don’t know his heart as a believer in Jesus Christ. But what I don’t like is the belief he is promoting. It may seem minor and acceptable to you and others, but I do not like his belief of him trying to resurrect an old dead word like “mysticism” when that word is viewed as primarily negative now (i.e. it is associated with New age, etc.). It would be like trying to bring back the word “gay” as meaning happy and not the other meaning most people know it by today. There could be lots of problems in attempting to do that. Sure, there are churches and groups who use the word mysticism with no negative association. I do get that. But select groups do not get to determine how that word is viewed by most people in the world. We have to be willing to reach all people for Jesus Christ. The best way we can do that is by not offending others by using the wrong words giving people the wrong impressions about us (as believers).

    Ask yourself this question. Can you see a teaching by Winfried that has influenced you that can be supported by the Bible? You know, the whole trying to resurrect a negative word idea like mysticism whereby it can give people the wrong impression about what we believe? Does God want us to confuse others? Does God want us to make other people think we are new age mystics by trying to bring back that word like it once was?

    I am nothing. Christ is everything. I only speak based on what I have learned from God’s Word. His Word is my guidance and light of my path for my every day walk with God.

    Are you in favor of his view of trying to resurrect the word mysticism?
    That is what this is really about, right?

    Anyways, we can simply agree to disagree and move on (of course).
    I am just giving you what I feel is good and correct in following Christ according to His Word.
    For I do not believe we need to add anything to God’s Word.
    No added teachings or beliefs by men’s thoughts.
    His Word is enough.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2021
  19. TheWhat?

    TheWhat? Ate all the treats

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    Mysticism, mystic, etc., are not dead words. Christians still use these words regularly when referring to the mystics. The words were never replaced.
     
  20. TheWhat?

    TheWhat? Ate all the treats

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    Your argument to the contrary is like arguing against the use of prophet, because 1) it's a "dead" word and 2) other religions, such as Islam and Baha'i have association with prophets.
     
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