Quid est Veritas?

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I saw this discussed in another thread and was intrigued.

Apparently some Orthodox believe that after death there is some form of Tollhouses that they need to pass through, where demons accuse the soul of sin and he then needs to clear it through Angelic help or intercessory prayer and on his state at death. It is a sort of purgatory it seems, a temporary disruption before the 'dead-in-Christ of Paul' state awaiting the Parousia.

One of the disputants @FireDragon76 said it was peasant superstition not taught by the clergy, yet it appears to be in the life of St. Anthony and slavonic liturgies.
Could someone enlighten me on what the actual orthodox position on this is? Is it really a sort-of purgatory in orthodox eyes, or merely soft-gnostic paganism as it seems to me. I find it hard to believe to be actual orthodox doctrine. How does it differ from Purgatory or a form of purgation then if so and what patristic or scriptural basis does it have (beyond of course the Maccabeaen prayers for the dead).
 

FireDragon76

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I saw this discussed in another thread and was intrigued.

Apparently some Orthodox believe that after death there is some form of Tollhouses that they need to pass through, where demons accuse the soul of sin and he then needs to clear it through Angelic help or intercessory prayer and on his state at death. It is a sort of purgatory it seems, a temporary disruption before the 'dead-in-Christ of Paul' state awaiting the Parousia.

One of the disputants @FireDragon76 said it was peasant superstition not taught by the clergy, yet it appears to be in the life of St. Anthony and slavonic liturgies.
Could someone enlighten me on what the actual orthodox position on this is? Is it really a sort-of purgatory in orthodox eyes, or merely soft-gnostic paganism as it seems to me. I find it hard to believe to be actual orthodox doctrine. How does it differ from Purgatory or a form of purgation then if so and what patristic or scriptural basis does it have (beyond of course the Maccabeaen prayers for the dead).

White Walkers, Toll-Houses, and the Hermeneutic of Pascha

It depends on the Orthodox clergy, if they teach it or not. I never heard it taught at my church. At best I understood it non-literalistically, as Fr. Alvin does.
 
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FireDragon76

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The "Tollhouse" functions similar to the "life review" that people tend to experience in many cultures that emphasize moral living as a necessary part of being worthy for a favorable afterlife (indeed, Jesus story of the "sheep and the goats" is a kind of life review). It is filtered through a Greek-Christian folk religion worldview. So I agree with Fr. Alvin that it should not be understood that demons have actual power to take away peoples souls.

A similar controversy happens in our western culture about near-death experiences and the theological significance for Christians.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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@FireDragon76

Thank you for the informative link. It really cleared up my understanding of this doctrine in Orthodoxy.

I agree that it is a related idea to 'life-review' or Near-Death experiences. I would go so far as saying it equates somewhat to Book of the Dead trials in Egyptian mythology with Anubis weighing the soul against Ma'at or the Zoroastrian Bridge of the Requiter.
Perhaps there is a universal human need to think that we should be able to defend ourselves and our actions before our Judge. As soon as we start seeing it in this manner, then I can see why people would start bringing in methods to try and sway opinion to their side.

I find the article's way of approaching it to be the right one. This is afterall not a necessary doctrine, more an idea or a potentiality. If I had been Orthodox, I would also have interpreted it in a figurative manner. Regardless, all will stand before the Judge at some point, as even Orthodoxy sees this as a temporary state until the end of days.

It would be interesting to know if someone could pass the 'tollhouses', yet be condemned as a goat at the end? I would assume not, but this renders them somewhat superfluous in kind.
 
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Albion

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The "Tollhouse" functions similar to the "life review" that people tend to experience in many cultures that emphasize moral living as a necessary part of being worthy for a favorable afterlife (indeed, Jesus story of the "sheep and the goats" is a kind of life review). It is filtered through a Greek-Christian folk religion worldview. So I agree with Fr. Alvin that it should not be understood that demons have actual power to take away peoples souls.

A similar controversy happens in our western culture about near-death experiences and the theological significance for Christians.
A life review probably wouldn't be an outrageous idea for most people, but the notion that even the saved are confronted with a struggle between good and evil spirits fighting over these souls seems horrid and completely unscriptural.

I am not well-informed about this tollhouse idea, but I would guess that it is not a doctrine in Eastern Christianity but, rather, another speculation that is allowed, just as a denial of hell is allowed but not dogmatized.
 
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FireDragon76

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A life review probably wouldn't be an outrageous idea for most people, but the notion that even the saved are confronted with a struggle between good and evil spirits fighting over these souls seems horrid and completely unscriptural.

I don't think its completely foreign even to early Protestantism, for instance with Luther's spirituality of struggle or anfechtung. For Luther there is a real dimension of spiritual warfare in the Christian life. The rationalism of modern Protestantism did not come into full force until centuries later, nor did Luther have any notion of eternal security that Reformed protestants do.
 
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Albion

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I don't think its completely foreign even to early Protestantism, for instance with Luther's spirituality of struggle or anfechtung. For Luther there is a real dimension of spiritual warfare in the Christian life.
Oh yes, but you're referring to THIS life.

We all understand that there are struggles here and now. However, this tollhouses idea apparently posits that the soul will, shortly after physical death, be beset by both good and evil spirits fighting over the soul's eternal destiny. That concept seems totally unscriptural and, in fact, is foreign to the teachings of every church I know of other than perhaps the EO.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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It is very much strange to think of a struggle in some vacuous period before we establish where we are to await the parousia. It is quite peculiar. I think purgatory is its cousin, but this falls somewhere before purgatory would become operative, if I would make a comparative afterlife timeline.
Similarly, it seems an extention of our earthly struggles, a sort of nomansland.
I concur with Albion on its unscriptural basis and its patristic support is limited from what I can glean. It is however treated quite ambiguously within Orthodoxy I see.
 
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SaintNick

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Who are the clergy but mere men to decide what happens after death?
Man is not the go to guy on some hierarchy with speaking to the Lord.
Why not ask the Lord what happens for yourself? Will Jesus say,
"I knew you through your Clergy so you are saved?"

The clergy spread the message an scriptures of Christ. But you're believing in their word as you ought to the Lords at some points. I do not have a religion I have a relationship.
 
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I have never met an Orthodox teacher or clergy who have taught tollhouses as literal. They ARE mentioned in the Liturgical texts and so should be considered a teaching of the Church. But what that means can be easily misunderstood. There are some "pious stories" floating around that are terribly misleading.

The most often way they are explained is this: demons tempt us (including trying to discourage us, lying to us, trying to entice us, whatever they think will work) throughout our lives. The process of death (which we should remember, sometimes takes some time, but even if it happens in an instant ... ) is still closely connected to life. It is the last chance the demons have to attack the soul, and it is also reasonable to think we may be vulnerable at that moment, since it is likely to be an unknown moment of some dread. Should we be surprised if the demons try one last attempt to terrify or entice the soul, whatever outcome they may be trying for?

I think it is better if we approach death expecting anything, yet hoping as always in Christ.

I spoke with a dear friend just today about an experience she had last year when she "died" but was resuscitated. It was very profound, and out of respect to her I won't recount it here. But she was very distressed about one thing. She is a Pentecostal-type non-denominational Christian, who loves Christ and lives for Him. But she expected only light, and was beyond distressed to find both light AND darkness present. I think it made her doubt her salvation, because of her expectations based on her beliefs. I explained to her very simply that I thought it was only a last-ditch "temptation" no different from what we experience all during life, and she had tears in her eyes and agreed that it made sense with all she was describing. Glory to God, I think, I hope, I was able to offer her some reassurance. Because to be honest, it seems she has been living in some fear of death since then, and according to her beliefs, there is no way she can become "more saved" than she already is. I can't imagine such angst, so I hope it really does help her to understand it in this way.

But literal houses in the air, manned by demons, extracting payments, judging the soul, etc? No ... we simply are as vulnerable to temptation to any earthly sin/passion we may have developed an attachment to during life, and we can expect demons to make attempts of any kind upon us until we are safely beyond their influence. This is the teaching of the Eastern Orthodox Church, as far as I've ever heard it (and I've heard it from a number of teachers and priests).
 
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buzuxi02

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Tollhouses are a way of thinking about "satan" as originally concieved in ancient Hebrew society(pre-second temple). As that of an accuser or that overzealous prosecutor.
I mentioned in these forums before that Elaine Pagels book and many other scholars who take Satan in the OT to be the prosecuting attorney general for God (but prone to witch hunts) is more akin to toll houses than simply a reading of Satan's role in the book of Job.
 
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Constantine the Sinner

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The "Tollhouse" functions similar to the "life review" that people tend to experience in many cultures that emphasize moral living as a necessary part of being worthy for a favorable afterlife (indeed, Jesus story of the "sheep and the goats" is a kind of life review). It is filtered through a Greek-Christian folk religion worldview. So I agree with Fr. Alvin that it should not be understood that demons have actual power to take away peoples souls.

A similar controversy happens in our western culture about near-death experiences and the theological significance for Christians.
Demons absolutely do have that power if you entrust your soul to them, satan was given dominion over everything turned from God, that is, the world. Christ absolves sins, but upon death you will get audited by satan for every sin you did not receive forgiveness for, but when the end of the age comes, everyone will be judged by Christ, including satan. When we judge our fellows, we are being satanic, because that is exactly what satan loves to do, to judge and accuse (Revelation 12:10).
 
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