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Aerial Toll Houses issue

Discussion in 'St. Justin Martyr's Corner: Debate an Orthodox Chr' started by David Cabrera, Jun 25, 2019.

  1. David Cabrera

    David Cabrera Well-Known Member

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    According to @JM the Aerial Toll Houses are a reason Orthodoxy is not a true doctrine. I will let him present his reasons why that is the case.

    I don't know much about the topic, so I don't think I can contribute a lot.
     
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  2. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Everything began with a voice, use yours Supporter

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    Googled it, interesting topic.

    It seems to take that thing about Satan arguing over the body of Moses to apply to all people. The toll houses sort of mirror Dante's inferno in having places of judgment instead of places in hell.

    Aerial Toll-Houses - OrthodoxWiki

    It's apparently a debated doctrine, and sometimes considered a heresy.
     
  3. Chesterton

    Chesterton Whats So Funny bout Peace Love and Understanding Supporter

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    This guy wants in on the debate.

    [​IMG]
     
  4. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Everything began with a voice, use yours Supporter

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    Overall, it sounds like a Catholic doctrine, I'm really surprised it's in Orthodox Circles. I would also like to discuss/debate this.
     
  5. ~Anastasia~

    ~Anastasia~ † Servant of God † Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    I think there wouldn't be any debate if it were understood as I've found it to be.

    I think the problem is with all the misunderstanding and taking things far too literally.
     
  6. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Everything began with a voice, use yours Supporter

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    Did you have some resources to read on the subject that you find express what you are visualizing?
     
  7. Monk Brendan

    Monk Brendan Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Not all Orthodox believe it.
     
  8. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    JM isn't Orthodox, so it doesn't matter what he thinks is or is not Orthodox doctrine.
     
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  9. David Cabrera

    David Cabrera Well-Known Member

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    True, but there are Orthodox who are against the toll houses and use the same arguments JM used: not Biblical, pagan/gnostic based, etc.
    For example, this known Orthodox Youtuber, Bible Illustrated, argues against it:
     
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  10. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    and the saints, services, and prayers argue for it. they have more weight than a youtuber
     
  11. ~Anastasia~

    ~Anastasia~ † Servant of God † Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    I've seen cautions about taking it too literally from his writing (which a person has to have some degree of carelessness or preconceived notions or something to cause them to do so because he repeatedly explains not to) ...

    But I found Fr Seraphim Rose's "The Soul after Death" to explain it quite well.

    Please do NOT read the "Theodora" account and take it literally and assume that's "tollhouses" according to Orthodoxy.

    It's really pretty simple. The demons are in the spiritual realm, which the soul is thrust into when it departs the body. The demons are still able to attempt to tempt, or threaten, or frighten, or suggest despair, or whatever they might think a good attack when one is dying. That shouldn't surprise us.

    And our souls are formed by the lives we live, by our cooperation with the grace of God (or lack of cooperation), and so on. The less prepared we are, the less we look to Christ and the less like Him we are, the more trouble we may find when we come face to face with demons upon our death.

    And there are angels also (though maybe not for someone opposed to God - I don't know).

    It is referenced in Scripture, such as the "powers of the air" and so on.

    Please please please forget wooden boxes in the sky or authority to judge being given to demons.


     
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  12. ~Anastasia~

    ~Anastasia~ † Servant of God † Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    We need a sticky thread.

    And I need an :eyeroll: emoticon.
     
  13. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Everything began with a voice, use yours Supporter

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    Thanks, didn't know about that nuance of Orthodox belief.

    So what about the sin noise that's in the air like a blanket? Does this affect souls as well?
     
  14. David Cabrera

    David Cabrera Well-Known Member

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    I will try to find "The Soul after Death". What's wrong with "Theodora"?
     
  15. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member Supporter

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    nothing, it's just that folks who try to discredit the toll houses typically only literalize her one vision. you gotta read it in light of everything else.
     
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  16. Lukaris

    Lukaris Orthodox Christian Supporter

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    The Orthodox layperson is not bound to this doctrine but has to acknowledge it as a tradition within the church.
     
  17. ~Anastasia~

    ~Anastasia~ † Servant of God † Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    I'm not quite sure what you mean about "sin noise that's in the air like a blanket"?

    Some reliable Orthodox sources talk about the effects of sin in the world - how it affects not only the one sinning, and those he is directly sinning with/against, etc. but sin as a sort of cumulative thing that affects the cosmos ... rather like a cancer growing. Our concern should not be only for individual effects of individual sins.

    I'm not sure if that what you mean.

    Demons can be present on the earth and above the earth. They don't have physical bodies so their existence is different than ours, but a particular demonic being can't be everywhere at once. I guess it depends on what you're referencing.
     
  18. E.C.

    E.C. Well-Known Member

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    It is one of those things that is considered "theological opinion"; there's a fancy Greek word for this, but I can't remember the spellng.

    There are arguments for and against. Is it dogma? No. Quite frankly since it is afterlife talk we're better off just praying like normal and crossing that bridge when we get there.
     
  19. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Everything began with a voice, use yours Supporter

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    Well this stuff is just sin, it's not a demon. Since it comes from a human being (usually) it may take on aspects of any memories consumed. Sin is like a waste by product of existing in an inefficient matter. When it piles up in a space - like a shopping mall, it can cause things to malfunction or decay. To an extent, all creation was affected by sin when Adam sinned, but what I'm talking about is the progressive effects.

    When people do not confess their sins, and they are disassociated by the mind, it is just ejected and becomes part of creation outside the person's body.

    In the sense of "this cancer growing" that you mentioned, has any Orthodox correlation been made to how it affects a soul leaving the body?
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2019
  20. ~Anastasia~

    ~Anastasia~ † Servant of God † Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    There are some similarities between what I've heard Orthodox explain and what you're saying. But I'm not sure if it's exactly the same.

    I do know that we would agree that all creation was affected by Adam's sin, and that sin has a cumulative effect in creation.

    As a matter of fact, within a community, our sin affects one another in some sense.

    As to the rest, someone would need to better understand what you're describing and better know Orthodox teaching on the matter to comment. This that I've said is about all I know from several teachers.

    Hmmmm. I've never heard a comment on that. Whether the cumulative effects of sin within creation affect the experiences of individuals upon death?

    I mean the demons who confront them would have gotten more experience of how humans can best be attacked over centuries of dealing with us, but I don't think that's what you mean.

    And certainly the sins of an individual have affected their own formation so that it affects their own experience at death.

    But I am not sure if there is any way that corporate or cumulative sins specifically affect an individual at death. And I'm not sure if anyone addresses this or not?
     
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