Aerial toll houses: Heresy or Biblical

[Nick Moser]

Aerial toll house - Wikipedia

 

[☦Marius☦]

I would say it is neither. We neither know it to be true or false. However I think that it focuses too much on Judgement and works, and not enough on Christ's grace. I don't know toll house theory is just one of those things that people obsess over, when it really doesn't even matter in the first place. As long as you are working in faith to increase your faith- you will be saved.

 

[ArmyMatt]

it's Biblical. just because it's not clearly defined doesn't mean it's not Biblical. you don't find God being called Trinity anywhere, or the phrase "Three Persons, One Substance" but we know those are very key Biblical concepts.

 

[Tigger45]

it's Biblical. just because it's not clearly defined doesn't mean it's not Biblical. you don't find God being called Trinity anywhere, or the phrase "Three Persons, One Substance" but we know those are very key Biblical concepts.

Did not know there were biblical references for the Aerial toll house teaching. Would you mind posting them? Thanks

 

[prodromos]

Aerial toll house - Wikipedia

Hi Nick, and welcome to The Ancient Way. Are you a cradle Orthodox or a convert?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Did not know there were biblical references for the Aerial toll house teaching. Would you mind posting them? Thanks

the parable of the rich young fool, Lazarus and the rich man are two off the top of my head because in both cases the angelic powers come for the soul (although the translation for the rich young fool is usually wrong).

 

[All4Christ]

From what I understand, the debatable question is more about how literal are toll houses...though I agree with Macarius that it isn’t something to obsess about That said, I like Fr Thomas Hopko’s explanation. There is a summary talk here:
Toll Houses: After Death Reality or Heresy? - The Illumined Heart | Ancient Faith Ministries

And there are for lectures from a retreat here:
https://www.orthodoxroad.com/downloads/01-The-Death-of-Jesus-Father-Hopko-October-2006.mp3
https://www.orthodoxroad.com/downloads/02-Dying-with-Jesus-Toll Houses-October-2006.mp3
https://www.orthodoxroad.com/downloads/03-Praying-to-with-and-for-the-dead-2006-Part-1.mp3
https://www.orthodoxroad.com/downloads/04-Praying-to-with-and-for-the-dead-Part-2.mp3

 

[ArmyMatt]

From what I understand, the debatable question is more about how literal are toll houses...though I agree with Macarius that it isn’t something to obsess about That said, I like Fr Thomas Hopko’s explanation. There is a summary talk here:
Toll Houses: After Death Reality or Heresy? - The Illumined Heart | Ancient Faith Ministries

And there are for lectures from a retreat here:
https://www.orthodoxroad.com/downloads/01-The-Death-of-Jesus-Father-Hopko-October-2006.mp3
https://www.orthodoxroad.com/downloads/02-Dying-with-Jesus-Toll Houses-October-2006.mp3
https://www.orthodoxroad.com/downloads/03-Praying-to-with-and-for-the-dead-2006-Part-1.mp3
https://www.orthodoxroad.com/downloads/04-Praying-to-with-and-for-the-dead-Part-2.mp3

yes, that is the real discussion, since if you pay attention to the services and what the saints have experienced, the toll houses are all over the place going back to St Justin Martyr.

 

[All4Christ]

Personally, I don’t adhere to the strict literal interpretation. I think much of the literalistic teachings are much more recent and are far beyond what the early church taught.

That said, there is a spiritual reality to a purification or testing upon death which is attested to since the very early church, and even Scripture (albeit limited in Scripture). It’s not anything like the temporal punishment of purgatory though...very different.

I like this article as well.

Death and the Toll House Contraversy

I don’t think it is something that is necessary to understand or dwell on. Ultimately, we need to follow God, confess our sins, and strive to become more like Him through His Grace. Pray for each other as Scripture and the Church teaches. Focusing on the details with this is a minor matter compared to other foundational teachings. This is something we can acknowledge - but not understand or be perfectly sure what it means...and that is perfectly fine.

 

[All4Christ]

Fr Matt - do you have the references for St Justin Martyr? I’m curious to read those.

 

[All4Christ]

Btw Marius, your patron saint (assuming he is St Marius) was one of the saints that talked about tollhouses, in case you are interested . The summary from Fr Tom has a quote from St Marius in it.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Fr Matt - do you have the references for St Justin Martyr? I’m curious to read those.

it's in his dialogue with Trypho the Jew. I'll have a look.

 

[Lukaris]

It is a big mistake to call it heresy but no one can compel you to accept it as dogma. There are some deeply problematic writings that like the Vision of Theodora that promote this.

 

[Platina]

The new book The Departure of the Soul from St. Anthony's Monastery is essential reading for this question. It shows more than 100 saints and elders talking about the toll houses and shows a number of Biblical passages where the Fathers saw the toll houses.

Moreover, it has a wonderful section showing the complete orthodoxy of the Life of St. Basil with the Vision of Theodora.

 

[ArmyMatt]

problems only arise when folks dogmatise the overly literal understanding.

 

[All4Christ]

problems only arise when folks dogmatise the overly literal understanding.

Would this be considered a doctrine or mystery (or even a theologoumena in regards to the degree) as opposed to dogma? I thought there was a distinction between the two within Orthodoxy? As in pronounced by the Ecumenical Councils vs internal doctrine of the Church (Does Dogma Develop?)

 

[ArmyMatt]

Would this be considered a doctrine or mystery (or even a theologoumena in regards to the degree) as opposed to dogma? I thought there was a distinction between the two within Orthodoxy? As in pronounced by the Ecumenical Councils vs internal doctrine of the Church (Does Dogma Develop?)

I would say that it is, since it is in hymns, prayers, Scripture, patristics, iconography, etc. that being said, no bishop has anathematized anyone who denies them.

 

[peregrinus2017]

This is one of those ideas that I have mostly tried to avoid while learning about Orthodoxy. Like many things we don't see clearly from here, I think it is important to try to understand what it means rather than how it ultimately plays out. I know that demonic forces hate me, they will accuse me and try to ensnare me in my sin every chance they get. What can I do but be vigilant, love and trust the Lord, try to have everything I do come out of that love and trust, and repent of everything that does not. Being the man that I am, I am very grateful for the help He gives me through both his saints and his ministering angels. Lord have mercy on me a sinner.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

Toll houses is usually my go to response whenever Orthodox hackles me about Purgatory

 

[Jesus4Madrid]

Toll houses is usually my go to response whenever Orthodox hackles me about Purgatory

I think the issue of Toll Houses is the buyer’s remorse of Orthodoxy. Wait, we believe what?

I have a hard time accepting it and, should it be true, it seems to be unambiguously bad news. I think it seems to contradict the words of Christ to the thief in Luke 23:43 that “today you will be with me in paradise”.

Of course, Purgatory is hard to square with this verse also.

I have definitely not looked at this much, so forgive me.