Advice on finding an Orthodox wife?

[GreekOrthodox]

I meant more women wanting to marry a priest.

I think the reasons are complicated. In times gone by I think they were often women who were gifted and capable and who might have entered ministry themselves, but this was as close as they could get (and often they did a lot of the actual work of running a parish!).

But now... how can I put this into words? There is sometimes a... a view of clergy as special and set-apart, and a desire to share in that specialness by association.

That's why Ionian Village is known as Presbyteras-R-Us according to the clip of Basile the comedian that I posted. Priest wives do get a title and some truly embrace it and due to education might run workshops for women, or manage a lot of the parish life. Others stay away as I know of one matushka who responded to someone asking a theology question with, "Ask Father, he went to seminary, not me!"

 

[~Anastasia~]

I meant more women wanting to marry a priest.

I think the reasons are complicated. In times gone by I think they were often women who were gifted and capable and who might have entered ministry themselves, but this was as close as they could get (and often they did a lot of the actual work of running a parish!).

But now... how can I put this into words? There is sometimes a... a view of clergy as special and set-apart, and a desire to share in that specialness by association.

Thank you for the reply. I understand (I think) the kinds of reasons you mentioned.


The Presvytera I know best is our own. They fell in love and married before he knew he wanted to be a priest, so I don't think she imagined any such life. She has taken on huge family and parish responsibilities as a result. Father had been a priest for I think about three years when I met her, so I think I've really seen her grow in the role. We are blessed to have her!


At the same time, our parish always hosts a seminarian during Holy Week who shadows Father, chants the services, and gets involved in many ways. We always had male seminary students until the past two years we have had young ladies. One was not yet engaged, and the second was. I suspect they will both be Presvyteras and are already prepared to lead many things within a parish. I know other Presvyteras online who are a GREAT help to me and teach and lead other ministries.

From where I see it, it seems to be a unique calling in much the same way the priesthood is.

As to wanting to be associated with the "specialness" I can see it, but that seems that it could be a little naive or misdirected in many cases. But I understand it as a particular kind of spiritual temptation. I hope that doesn't offend anyone by me saying so.

 

[Paidiske]

Not offended at all, I quite agree.

 

[RobNJ]

Over on the Presbyterian side... My maternal grandmother said, more than once.. She was a school teacher, that married the principal... She didn't know, he was going to "get the call" two years later.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

So you're saying she married Batman!? DUDE!

Over on the Presbyterian side... My maternal grandmother said, more than once.. She was a school teacher, that married the principal... She didn't know, he was going to "get the call" two years later.

 

[nutroll]

So you're saying she married Batman!? DUDE!

The kids loved Grandma so much. Grandpa was just ok. When they visited they all yelled "Nana Nana Nana Nana Nana Nana Nana Nana... Batman."

 

[JasonV]

I'm going to put it out there...that looking for someone you might be able to convince to convert is probably a terrible relationship strategy. If a potential husband had so little respect for my religious integrity, I'd run and not look back.

I'm going to put it out there, because I can. A wife should submit to her husband. A husband is the head of the wife. (see Ephesians 5:22-23) My wife was not Orthodox, and I made it clear that if she wanted marriage, she would become Orthodox. Period, end of story. She accepted the natural order of things, submitted to me as her future husband, and was baptized, and later we were married.

Men, if you cannot find an Orthodox woman, convert the heterodox and save their souls in the process.

 

[anewman1993]

i"m just posting cause i'm in the same exact situation. I converted last year, and while there are actually a number of people in my parish my age (mid 20's) I live an hour and a half away. I'm lucky to make the liturgy once a month. Hopefully in a year or 2 I will finally be able to move closer to church.

 

[SingularityOne]

I'm going to put it out there, because I can. A wife should submit to her husband. A husband is the head of the wife. (see Ephesians 5:22-23) My wife was not Orthodox, and I made it clear that if she wanted marriage, she would become Orthodox. Period, end of story. She accepted the natural order of things, submitted to me as her future husband, and was baptized, and later we were married.

Men, if you cannot find an Orthodox woman, convert the heterodox and save their souls in the process.

It does take more descernment to go in with that mindset (convert heterodox). However, I do fully agree that wives should respect and submit to their husband. Husbands should love the wife in the goal of sanctification (speaking and acting in truth and love).

“Thy will be done” is my hope. I’m sure God will lead an orthodox or heterodox wife into my life if I keep being open to new experiences in faith working though love and trusting the process of life in the present moment trying to grow towards attentiveness to the Natural nous within me through God’s grace.

I am thankful for your advice.

Edit: I do agree that a good litmus test to see if a potential woman will be a good wife is to see if they have the will to submit and conform to their role of “submission and respect” toward me.

 

[~Anastasia~]

There are some caveats to the whole "submission" thing. If the woman recognizes the truth in Orthodoxy and wants to convert for that reason, then I say well and good. If she converts just because "I'm a man and I say so" ... then the only thing she has demonstrated is her willingness to put what a man says (because he is a man) above her conscience before God. God forbid.

When I was single I was being pursued (diligently!) by a man who was a minister. Presbyterian I think? He would talk over me and insist that what he was saying was true and I was wrong and I must accept his word and affirm it. He was determined that I was going to marry him and we were going to pursue missionary posts in China based out of Australia.

I cut off association with the man.


No one has more authority than Jesus. But we don't see Him steamrolling anyone, and certainly not on the basis of their sex.



(Believe me, I wish for nothing more than to have decent order in my family. My husband is spiritually - conflicted? Under attack? Eventually after some years I could no longer wait for his "leading" when it wasn't coming, and that's when I discovered Orthodoxy. Now unfortunately I cannot betray what I know to be true for the sake of "submitting" to wrong beliefs and such. But fortunately he has a fairly good grasp on most things, and also fortunately my priest was a good guide in ways to promote peace in such circumstances. Our marriage is actually many times exponentially better than it was before I found the Church.)

But a woman's willingness to "submit" to a man if it requires her to betray her beliefs to God is not something to recommend her.

 

[MariaJLM]

There are some caveats to the whole "submission" thing. If the woman recognizes the truth in Orthodoxy and wants to convert for that reason, then I say well and good. If she converts just because "I'm a man and I say so" ... then the only thing she has demonstrated is her willingness to put what a man says (because he is a man) above her conscience before God. God forbid.

When I was single I was being pursued (diligently!) by a man who was a minister. Presbyterian I think? He would talk over me and insist that what he was saying was true and I was wrong and I must accept his word and affirm it. He was determined that I was going to marry him and we were going to pursue missionary posts in China based out of Australia.

I cut off association with the man.


No one has more authority than Jesus. But we don't see Him steamrolling anyone, and certainly not on the basis of their sex.



(Believe me, I wish for nothing more than to have decent order in my family. My husband is spiritually - conflicted? Under attack? Eventually after some years I could no longer wait for his "leading" when it wasn't coming, and that's when I discovered Orthodoxy. Now unfortunately I cannot betray what I know to be true for the sake of "submitting" to wrong beliefs and such. But fortunately he has a fairly good grasp on most things, and also fortunately my priest was a good guide in ways to promote peace in such circumstances. Our marriage is actually many times exponentially better than it was before I found the Church.)

But a woman's willingness to "submit" to a man if it requires her to betray her beliefs to God is not something to recommend her.

Yea, a woman converting simply because her partner demands it doesn't sit well with me at all. Conversion should be purely out of one's free will. It certainly was in my case, especially since I have most of society plus my entire family working against me. I think some men simply take the whole "submit to your husbands" thing too far or maybe that is just my free-spirited side speaking, I don't know. Something about it doesn't sit well with me and it never really has. I suspect that could also be in part due to the fact that nearly every relationship I have witnessed in female family and friends have generally been pretty unhealthy. Control, manipulation, abuse, etc.

I suppose I'm getting a bit off-topic, though, so I'll just stay firm that one must follow their own conscience in converting. It is a difficult journey and one that will test you mentally and spiritually. I suppose that is one reason why we remain catechumans for so long. I personally was for a little over a year and to be honest I think that should be a requirement for most.

 

[peregrinus2017]

Often times a husband looks at what the wife should be, while the wife looks at what the husband should be, when they should both be looking at what they themselves should be.

 

[JasonV]

There are some caveats to the whole "submission" thing. If the woman recognizes the truth in Orthodoxy and wants to convert for that reason, then I say well and good. If she converts just because "I'm a man and I say so" ... then the only thing she has demonstrated is her willingness to put what a man says (because he is a man) above her conscience before God. God forbid.

It's not about being a man, it's about being an Orthodox man. I think you are confusing worldly standards about men and women with what the Church teaches. And without being offensive to your Presbyterian suitor, the scriptures were written by Orthodox, for Orthodox. Obviously St. Paul didn't have heterodox in mind!

But a woman's willingness to "submit" to a man if it requires her to betray her beliefs to God is not something to recommend her.

If her beliefs are heterodox, then her beliefs are irrelevant.

 

[SingularityOne]

There are some caveats to the whole "submission" thing. If the woman recognizes the truth in Orthodoxy and wants to convert for that reason, then I say well and good. If she converts just because "I'm a man and I say so" ... then the only thing she has demonstrated is her willingness to put what a man says (because he is a man) above her conscience before God. God forbid.

When I was single I was being pursued (diligently!) by a man who was a minister. Presbyterian I think? He would talk over me and insist that what he was saying was true and I was wrong and I must accept his word and affirm it. He was determined that I was going to marry him and we were going to pursue missionary posts in China based out of Australia.

I cut off association with the man.


No one has more authority than Jesus. But we don't see Him steamrolling anyone, and certainly not on the basis of their sex.



(Believe me, I wish for nothing more than to have decent order in my family. My husband is spiritually - conflicted? Under attack? Eventually after some years I could no longer wait for his "leading" when it wasn't coming, and that's when I discovered Orthodoxy. Now unfortunately I cannot betray what I know to be true for the sake of "submitting" to wrong beliefs and such. But fortunately he has a fairly good grasp on most things, and also fortunately my priest was a good guide in ways to promote peace in such circumstances. Our marriage is actually many times exponentially better than it was before I found the Church.)

But a woman's willingness to "submit" to a man if it requires her to betray her beliefs to God is not something to recommend her.

There are 3 persons in a marriage: God, the husband, and the wife.

Husband’s role: love towards sanctification, the responsibility/suffering of leadership, provision for the family, and protection; loving, cherishing, protecting, providing, and honoring the wife.

Wife’s role: trust, submission, and respect

God’s role: revealing the commandments that the husband and wife should “melt” into and abide by for harmony and peace (among other things) of the little church at home... as our God is a god of peace and order, not of chaos and disorder.

The husband is to love like Christ, and the wife is to respect as the Church.

Christ didn’t lead by coercion, but with loving responsibility/suffering without forsaking the commandments of His Father. By doing this, He led humanity on the way, truth, and life of salvation. The husband is to lead how Christ led - for the salvation of the family. This is suffering - and the wife doesn’t go through this kind of suffering because this is not her role.

The wife is in the best place considering they have the role of submission/obedience... oh how many monks have been led to salvation by obedience (the greatest virtue of Christianity). However, if the husband is not living an Orthodox way of life, the wife has the responsibility to respectfully talk to the husband about that. Vice versa, the husband lovingly calls the wife out if she isn’t leading an Orthodox way of life.

Quote by St. Paisios sums this up:

“What is it that most unites husband and wife?”


“Gratitude”, I answered.


“They love each other for what they give as a gift to one another. The wife offers her husband: trust, devotion, obedience. The husband offers his wife: assurance and security that he can protect her. The wife is the noble lady of the household, but also the mature servant. The husband is the captain of the household, but also he is the lowest laborer.”

I could write a whole book on this, but I will refrain from going deeper into this topic as I have gotten my main point across.

Edit: Best Orthodox book on marriage after On Marriage and Family Life by St. John Chrysostom: https://www.amazon.com/Marriage-Spiritual-Arena-Πνευματικό-Γυμναστήριο/dp/1932455302

 

[AMM]

. I think some men simply take the whole "submit to your husbands" thing too far or maybe that is just my free-spirited side speaking, I don't know. Something about it doesn't sit well with me and it never really has.

Often times a husband looks at what the wife should be, while the wife looks at what the husband should be, when they should both be looking at what they themselves should be.

One thing I was taught (admittedly while I was Lutheran), is that Paul is not speaking to anyone but the party he is addressing.

In other words: when he says, "wives, submit to your husbands" that is only something that the wives should hear. It is not the job of the husband to say, "submit to me!" The wife should submit, but that does not give the husband any right to be demanding or cruel towards her.

On the other hand, when he says, "husbands, love your wives as Christ loved the Church" that is something that only husbands should hear. A husband should sacrifice his lives for his wife, but that does not give the wife any right to say "you aren't sacrificing enough, I need you to sacrifice more"

 

[SingularityOne]

One thing I was taught (admittedly while I was Lutheran), is that Paul is not speaking to anyone but the party he is addressing.

In other words: when he says, "wives, submit to your husbands" that is only something that the wives should hear. It is not the job of the husband to say, "submit to me!" The wife should submit, but that does not give the husband any right to be demanding or cruel towards her.

On the other hand, when he says, "husbands, love your wives as Christ loved the Church" that is something that only husbands should hear. A husband should sacrifice his lives for his wife, but that does not give the wife any right to say "you aren't sacrificing enough, I need you to sacrifice more"

Agreed, however, before marriage, one should be focusing on developing/melting into their own role as well as looking for a person who fulfills the role that complements their role in prudence and descernment for the harmony and peace of their future household/little-church. It’s both/and.

After marriage, I would agree with your statement as the choice has already been made to marry and become one.

 

[GoingByzantine]

I'm not a fan of forcing people to submit themselves to Orthodoxy, if that's not what they want. Theological implications aside, I find it difficult to imagine that a forced convert would ever get actively involved in church and parish life. What kind of precedent would that set for any potential children that might come from such a union? My father never went to church when I was growing up, and because of that I didn't bother going to church either until my late teenage years. If you want to fully immerse your family in Orthodoxy, then everyone needs to be on board. Period. End of Story. You can't have a wife or husband who badmouths "silly old Orthodoxy", or begrudgingly accepts it, and expect your kids not to also have some of these opinions.

Christ gave humanity a choice to follow him, he never forced people to follow him. That's why I wouldn't force any woman to become Orthodox unless she wanted to.

 

[Virgil the Roman]

Subscribing for a friend.

 

[SingularityOne]

I'm not a fan of forcing people to submit themselves to Orthodoxy, if that's not what they want. Theological implications aside, I find it difficult to imagine that a forced convert would ever get actively involved in church and parish life. What kind of precedent would that set for any potential children that might come from such a union? My father never went to church when I was growing up, and because of that I didn't bother going to church either until my late teenage years. If you want to fully immerse your family in Orthodoxy, then everyone needs to be on board. Period. End of Story. You can't have a wife or husband who badmouths "silly old Orthodoxy", or begrudgingly accepts it, and expect your kids not to also have some of these opinions.

Christ gave humanity a choice to follow him, he never forced people to follow him. That's why I wouldn't force any woman to become Orthodox unless she wanted to.

I don't think anyone has said anything about "forcing" anyone to convert to Orthodoxy on this thread yet. I agree that Christ didn't force anyone to follow Him.

No one can control anyone but their own person. The Saints do recommend following the commandments of God though. Looking for a wife that is seeking to abide by those commandments is something that one can control though, aka; choosing to pursue the relationship further, or not.

 

[Not David]

I don't think anyone has said anything about "forcing" anyone to convert to Orthodoxy on this thread yet. I agree that Christ didn't force anyone to follow Him.

No one can control anyone but their own person. The Saints do recommend following the commandments of God though. Looking for a wife that is seeking to abide by those commandments is something that one can control though, aka; choosing to pursue the relationship further, or not.

Yeah, I might not agree with JasonV in a lot of stuff but we see cases where Orthodox people marry non-Orthodox but the latter has to agree with raising the kids Orthodox.