Advice for Fruitless Debates

[ChristIsSovereign]

Just as of recently I learned that the Calvinism VS Arminianism debate never ends because it is steeped in circular reasoning that can never resolve itself. The Bible supports both positions hypothetically and neither at the same time. I have given up choosing one or the other.

The reason why those debates never end is because God did not make it clear exactly how salvation works. Salvation is of God and yet we choose Christ, and yet at the same time, I cannot be exactly sure how it works. God didn't give a 'step by step' manual to how He made salvation work. To debate over things that have not a clear answer is immature and sectarian.

If a debate never ends, go to the Bible and see that the answer isn't so clear after all. We have to accept that the Bible brings up mysteries that cannot be truly solved until we go to Heaven and ask God how He does it.

 

[RC1970]

Just as of recently I learned that the Calvinism VS Arminianism debate never ends because it is steeped in circular reasoning that can never resolve itself. The Bible supports both positions hypothetically and neither at the same time. I have given up choosing one or the other.

The reason why those debates never end is because God did not make it clear exactly how salvation works. Salvation is of God and yet we choose Christ, and yet at the same time, I cannot be exactly sure how it works. God didn't give a 'step by step' manual to how He made salvation work. To debate over things that have not a clear answer is immature and sectarian.

If a debate never ends, go to the Bible and see that the answer isn't so clear after all. We have to accept that the Bible brings up mysteries that cannot be truly solved until we go to Heaven and ask God how He does it.

What you say is true to a certain extent. We all have a different level of ability to understand. God gives everyone a different amount of light and motivation to understand.

And he said, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.” ~ Mark 4:9

 

[ChristIsSovereign]

What you say is true to a certain extent. We all have a different level of ability to understand. God gives everyone a different amount of light and motivation to understand.

And he said, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.” ~ Mark 4:9

Exactly. The amount of time that Calvinists and Arminians dedicate to debating each other makes me scratch my chin and shake my head. They should be proclaiming Christ together, not bickering about things that aren't as important as, say, bringing Christ to the lost.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

As a wise grey-haired woman in Christ remarked simply:
they need a new heart
otherwise all the outside stuff won't change nor make a difference..

 

[Acts2:38]

Just as of recently I learned that the Calvinism VS Arminianism debate never ends because it is steeped in circular reasoning that can never resolve itself. The Bible supports both positions hypothetically and neither at the same time. I have given up choosing one or the other.

Hello,

Honestly, both are false. This is why it will come full circle every time and never resolve. They both carry false doctrines not found in the bible. Without knowing which precise argument you refer to, I cannot really say much more than the fact that both you talk about here are not of Christs church.

Non of these titled names are found in scripture and are not authorized for use in scripture as to be used for the church. The bible is chalk full of examples that state there is only one, for example Ephesians 4:4-6 and Romans 12 "one body". The bible calls for unity whereas Calvinist and Arminianism are denominations. The word denomination is "separate and apart from the original", therefore they cannot be of Christs church.

Matthew 16:18-19, upon Peters confession/testimony found in Acts 2 ("upon this rock I will build My church") was Christ to build the church, His church. Not John Calvin's church or any other mans.

The reason why those debates never end is because God did not make it clear exactly how salvation works. Salvation is of God and yet we choose Christ, and yet at the same time, I cannot be exactly sure how it works. God didn't give a 'step by step' manual to how He made salvation work. To debate over things that have not a clear answer is immature and sectarian.

With all due respect and love, I beg to differ. The bible is so clear on salvation it is practically repetitive. It is people that make it hard to understand not the bible.

#1 Question: Do you believe the bible is the only authority?

#2 Question: Do you believe the bible is God breathed, God inspired written by God through "holy men" (2 Peter 1:20-21)?

#3 Question: Is God the author of confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33)?

If you need help in direction, many people including I would help show you with scripture, so that you can see for yourself.

If a debate never ends, go to the Bible and see that the answer isn't so clear after all. We have to accept that the Bible brings up mysteries that cannot be truly solved until we go to Heaven and ask God how He does it

There are mysteries and things God did not put in the bible because it could fill everything (John 21:25). However, we have enough shown to us in the scriptures that pertain to how we are to conduct ourselves, salvation, all we need to know to be saved and in good standing as Christians.

Hope this helps.

 

[GeorgeJ]

Cool...a fruitless debate about fruitless debates. This should be quite........fruitless.

 

[HenryM]

Just as of recently I learned that the Calvinism VS Arminianism debate never ends because it is steeped in circular reasoning that can never resolve itself. The Bible supports both positions hypothetically and neither at the same time. I have given up choosing one or the other. The reason why those debates never end is...

What you wrote applies to all debates. Within the body of Christians there are issues about: faith and works, creation account, end time prophecies, literal or spiritual Israel, nature of punishment in hell, relationship to saints in sleep, icons and statues, sacraments... All aside to predestination.

None will end until Jesus returns. And, as I see it, on all sides of those debates are both saved and unsaved. One could argue about difference in percentage of saved within groups that hold opposing views, but there is no point doing that, I'd say.

I did learn things from debates, by the way, so I've found some value in them.

 

[ChristIsSovereign]

Thank you for the welcoming replies. This will not be a debate.

 

[HowRU?]

I recently heard a pastor mention that as a person reads and becomes familiar with biblical truths, and begins to ponder those truths in their heart, they may choose to allow those truths become convictions (strong resolutions for action), but if they don't these often become points they wish to debate others over.

 

[rockytopva]

Where no wood is, there the fire goeth out: so where there is no talebearer, the strife ceaseth. - Proverbs 26:20

 

[ChristIsSovereign]

Where no wood is, there the fire goeth out: so where there is no talebearer, the strife ceaseth. - Proverbs 26:20

Exactly.

 

[mark kennedy]

Just as of recently I learned that the Calvinism VS Arminianism debate never ends because it is steeped in circular reasoning that can never resolve itself. The Bible supports both positions hypothetically and neither at the same time. I have given up choosing one or the other.

The reason why those debates never end is because God did not make it clear exactly how salvation works. Salvation is of God and yet we choose Christ, and yet at the same time, I cannot be exactly sure how it works. God didn't give a 'step by step' manual to how He made salvation work. To debate over things that have not a clear answer is immature and sectarian.

If a debate never ends, go to the Bible and see that the answer isn't so clear after all. We have to accept that the Bible brings up mysteries that cannot be truly solved until we go to Heaven and ask God how He does it.

I tried to get in on one of those debates, what I didn't have a chance to do is to participate in an actual discussion. I'm a Calvinist with a sincere affection for Wesleyan theology, I even studied with the Nazarenes. I can debate creation and evolution endlessly with unbelievers, always come away with a better understanding of the sciences. Yet for some reason I can't seem to have a substantive conversation with other's on theological issues, I've often wondered what is wrong with me. After years of study on the subject of Eschatology I have been convinced I have a definitive (though incomplete) understanding of end times prophecy. Invariably when I try to share what I think are important insights into the prophets and Revelations I'm inundated with bizarre dispensational scenarios that appear to have little to do with the actual text.

I remember in a Bible study at an evangelical church we were discussing eternal security. I mentioned that when the Holy Spirit tells you you are a child of God, then it's eternal security, they had no idea what I was talking about. God has given us a road map to salvation, it's so simple, a child could understand. Yet we wander off on tangents, circling one another like prize fighters looking for an opportunity to land the decisive point in the debate. I can't say I have the answer here but I fully understand the problem your trying to address here.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Exactly. The amount of time that Calvinists and Arminians dedicate to debating each other makes me scratch my chin and shake my head. They should be proclaiming Christ together, not bickering about things that aren't as important as, say, bringing Christ to the lost.

Well, just because you do not understand something in God's Word does not mean that is the reality of truth for every person of God. You think you have the truth on this subject by saying it is unknoweable. However, Calvinists think they have the truth and so do Arminians. So who is right?
Well, truth should be backed up by both God's Word and by real world examples and man's conscience in what he knows to be good and right.

Calvinism and Once Saved Always Saved are both so deeply wrong (it is not even funny).
Calvinism seeks to paint God in a bad light by saying He forces some to be saved and others to not be saved. It's making God out to be like a child who smashes his toys as a part of some mindless good ole fun. But God sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous; And God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. I mean, why even have a Judgment if God has predetermined some to be saved and others to not be saved. What would be the point of even living this life then if God is the One who ultimately controls it all and what we do does not ultimately matter? Such a belief leads the believer to being apathetic towards God.

Once Saved Always Saved is refuted if one were to just read their Bible. On most pages of the New Testament, one can easily find a refutation of Eternal Security. God is not in the business of leading people to think they can treat God's grace as a license to sin. For that is exactly what is so misleading about Eternal Security. For if you say that you are saved by God's grace and it is in nothing you do and you stop in your message at that point, a person can walk away and easily think you are telling them that they can sin and still be saved.


...

 

[ChristIsSovereign]

Well, just because you do not understand something in God's Word does not mean that is the reality of truth for every person of God. You think you have the truth on this subject by saying it is unknoweable. However, Calvinists think they have the truth and so do Arminians. So who is right?
Well, truth should be backed up by both God's Word and by real world examples and man's conscience in what he knows to be good and right.

Calvinism and Once Saved Always Saved are both so deeply wrong (it is not even funny).
Calvinism seeks to paint God in a bad light by saying He forces some to be saved and others to not be saved. It's making God out to be like a child who smashes his toys as a part of some mindless good ole fun. But God sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous; And God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. I mean, why even have a Judgment if God has predetermined some to be saved and others to not be saved. What would be the point of even living this life then if God is the One who ultimately controls it all and what we do does not ultimately matter? Such a belief leads the believer to being apathetic towards God.

Once Saved Always Saved is refuted if one were to just read their Bible. On most pages of the New Testament, one can easily find a refutation of Eternal Security. God is not in the business of leading people to think they can treat God's grace as a license to sin. For that is exactly what is so misleading about Eternal Security. For if you say that you are saved by God's grace and it is in nothing you do and you stop in your message at that point, a person can walk away and easily think you are telling them that they can sin and still be saved.


...

Another reason I left Calvinism. I know that in some cases, people do fall away from the Truth.

 

[Winken]

Just as of recently I learned that the Calvinism VS Arminianism debate never ends because it is steeped in circular reasoning that can never resolve itself. The Bible supports both positions hypothetically and neither at the same time. I have given up choosing one or the other.

The reason why those debates never end is because God did not make it clear exactly how salvation works. Salvation is of God and yet we choose Christ, and yet at the same time, I cannot be exactly sure how it works. God didn't give a 'step by step' manual to how He made salvation work. To debate over things that have not a clear answer is immature and sectarian.

If a debate never ends, go to the Bible and see that the answer isn't so clear after all. We have to accept that the Bible brings up mysteries that cannot be truly solved until we go to Heaven and ask God how He does it.

Please help us understand how you can post a post like this, that meets with so much approval, and then post the one "Probably Demonically Oppressed." Thanks.

 

[ChristIsSovereign]

Please help us understand how you can post a post like this, that meets with so much approval, and then post the one "Probably Demonically Oppressed." Thanks.

I think it's the 'new believer' status I have. Trust me, I came out of a past involving dozens of girlfriends online and hundreds of sexual encounters online as well. It isn't always 'believe in Jesus and I'm cured' type of ordeal. I'm confident that there will be a final cure but I have to trust in Jesus that He'll give me the way out.

 

[Winken]

I think it's the 'new believer' status I have. Trust me, I came out of a past involving dozens of girlfriends online and hundreds of sexual encounters online as well. It isn't always 'believe in Jesus and I'm cured' type of ordeal. I'm confident that there will be a final cure but I have to trust in Jesus that He'll give me the way out.

Your other post appears to be in the present tense. ???

 

[ChristIsSovereign]

Your other post appears to be in the present tense. ???

I believe I have some sort of oppression that needs to be dealt with, yes. I am nowhere near perfect. I am filthy and unclean, truly, yet Christ died for my sins. What a loving Savior.

 

[Winken]

I believe I have some sort of oppression that needs to be dealt with, yes. I am nowhere near perfect. I am filthy and unclean, truly, yet Christ died for my sins. What a loving Savior.

Based upon the last two paragraphs in your "demonically oppressed" post, I suggest that you immediately enter Christian counseling in an authentic Christian Church, never again in the faith-works-tongues movement. You need help right away, help you can't find in these forums.

 

[ChristIsSovereign]

Based upon the last two paragraphs in your "demonically oppressed" post, I suggest that you immediately enter Christian counseling in an authentic Christian Church, never again in the faith-works-tongues movement. You need help right away, help you can't find in these forums.

That is the point. Exactly. I'll see what the pastor of the local Pilgrim Holiness Church can do the next time I see him. (Sunday after next.)