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Adventists Answer the Question: Why did Jesus Leave Earth?

Discussion in 'Denomination Specific Theology' started by BobRyan, Jun 1, 2021.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Question: Why did Jesus leave?

    Answer:

    Heb 8:1 says "the MAIN POINT" is that Christ is in heaven as our High Priest in the sanctuary in heaven - as Paul points - with its two-phase service as Heb 9 reminds us.

    Jesus Himself tells us that He must go - and why --
    John 14:1-3 Jesus said "I GO to prepare A PLACE for you" and after that He will "come again and RECEIVE us TO Himself so that WHERE He is THERE we may be also".

    As High Priest Jesus is preparing the way for us...

    As infinite God a wave of the hand would cause all "things" to come about. But this is not merely about "things" ... it is about Judgment, grace, mercy, justice and knowledge of God in the Universe. It the Job 1 and Job 2 experiment at the macro level. Decisions being made in heaven affect people on Earth... "and take time".

    So that involves the judgment future to the days of the Bible writers as described in Romans 2 / Daniel 7:9-10, 22 judgment in heaven that Daniel 7 says is before the second coming and after the fall of the pagan Roman empire and also after the 1260 years of the dark ages.

    It takes place while saints are being persecuted on Earth - and it is where "Judgment is passed in favor of the saints" Dan 7:22 which ends the persecution of the saints on Earth according to Dan 7 and brings about the second coming (Dan 7:26-27).

    It takes place in heaven while on Earth "the everlasting Gospel" message of the 3 Angels in Rev 14 goes out to all the Earth just before the Rev 16 - seven last plagues.

    ========================

    And for those who suggest Jesus did not leave nor is He coming back -- having not left... we have this...

     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2021
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  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    one of the Bible texts where Adventists get details for this doctrine about Jesus' work in heaven after ascending as our High Priest 2000 years ago -- is from Dan 7
    • 4 beasts (Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome) -- Dan 7:1-8
    • And after Rome is divided into ten , and after the 11th horn arises - a judgment scene in heaven takes place. vs 9
    • The ancient of Days (God the Father) has a throne and that throne can move (has wheels) from one place to another. vs 9
    • The Ancient of days is seated, and the court is then seated. vs 9-10
    • a judgment scene "setup in heaven" (vs 9-10)
    • where the "Son of Man" (God the Son) comes to the "Ancient of Days" (God the Father" (Vs 13)
    • in a court room of myriads and myriads of beings (vs 9-10)
    • and the "books are opened" vs 10 (Investigative)
    • and "Judgment is passed in favor of the saints" vs 22
    • - Judgment of individuals happens and passes in favor of one side and against the other side
    • And according to the chapter this happens after the fourth beast (pagan roman empire) arises (7-10)
    • And it happens after 11th horn - conquers 3 of the 10 horns (7-9)
    • and the judgment happens after the 1260 years of dark ages (times and time and 1/2 time) (vs 25-26).
    • And the dark ages does not start until after the division of 10 kings - Roman empire splits into 10 parts according to Daniel 7
    • Israel is in Babylon, Persian, Greece and Roman empires - yet persecution of the saints takes place then and now - to this very day. And persecution continues all through the judgment - until it is completed. Dan 7:25-26
    • So then in Rev 13:1-10 that composite of all 4 empires continues to persecute the saints until the second coming - as Dan 7 points out.
    • Romans 2:4-16 makes it clear that this judgment is individual case-by-case. (as does 2 Cor 5:10 point that out). "The books are opened" in Dan 7:10 and cases reviewed.
    • By contrast "the wicked are judged already" John 3:18 - "all have sinned" Rom 3:23 - the world is "fallen". The question then is "who if-any, are saved?"
    Keys here are found in Dan 9

    1. All apocalytpic timelines use day-for-year.
    2. All Bible timelines are contiguous -- so for example 1260 years in Dan 7, 2300 years in Dan 8, 490 years in Dan 9
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2021
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    2 Cor 5:10 "10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive compensation for his deeds done through the body, in accordance with what he has done, whether good or bad."

    So that is ALL, and it is future to Rom 2:16 and 2 Cor 5:10, it is "the judgment seat of Christ" and it looks not just at GOOD deeds but also the reward for BAD deeds.

    Rom 6:23 "the wages of sin is death"

    As Christ said in Matt 7 "By their fruits you shall know them" -- Good trees produce good fruit. The born-again saints will be known by their fruit.

    Rom 2:4-16 spells this out in detail

    =================================

    Rev 14:
    6 Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people— 7 saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.”

    Rom 2:13-16
    13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the Law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law instinctively perform the requirements of the Law, these, though not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of mankind through Christ Jesus[/QUOTE]

    • 4. Rev 14:6-7 the judgment takes place while Gospel evangelism is fully going on - for the people on Earth who are responding to the Gospel

    • 5. Dan 7 - the judgment takes place while the saints are being persecuted.
    That means there is no "stand in person" idea to be inserted in 2 Cor 5:10 - rather the case of that person is being brought up
    • while saints are being persecuted on Earth Dan 7:25-26
    • and while the Gospel is being preached on Earth Rev 14:6-7
    • and before the 2nd coming (not at the second coming) - Dan 7:24-27.

    Saints seated in heaven with Christ all this time -- Eph 2: 5 "even when we were dead in our wrongdoings, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus", ... not yet "in person".. for now the saints are persecuted.
     
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Dan 7:9-10, 22
    The Ancient of Days Courtroom in heaven

    9 “I kept looking
    Until thrones were set up,
    And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
    His garment was white as snow,
    And the hair of His head like pure wool.
    His throne was ablaze with flames,
    Its wheels were a burning fire.
    10 A river of fire was flowing
    And coming out from before Him;
    Thousands upon thousands were serving Him,
    And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
    The court convened,
    And the books were opened.

    21 I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.

    26 But the court will convene for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, the dominion, and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the empires will serve and obey Him.’

    Rev 22
    12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”

    14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.
     
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    On a side note - this is why the Arminian model for free will and Atonement works and the Calvinist model lacks some answers.

    1 John 2:2 "He is the Atoning SACRIFICE for our sins and not for our sins only - but also for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD"

    Atoning Sacrifice - completed at the cross - is one of the key elements God explains in Lev 16 "Day of Atonement" - as necessary for the larger them of Atonement of which it is a part.
     
  6. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    That's a good reason, but I think the main point is faith.
    Jesus said blessed are they who do not see and yet believe (John 20:29).
    Hebrews 11:6 says without faith, it is impossible to please Him (GOD) (Hebrews 11:6).
     
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    If Jesus had stayed in Jerusalem - then sent out missionaries to all corners of the Earth a great many would have had to "believe" that never "saw".

    Jesus' own statement that He had to "go prepare a place for us" or it would not happen - is key. He did not say "I have to go build mansions" rather he said "in My Father's house ARE many mansions" - the physical place is already setup - the problem is the "prepare" part where myriads and myriads in that Dan 7:9-10 sit with "the books opened" and each case in all of time being reviewed by that "court".

    Dan 7:25-28 says the second coming does not happen until that process completes.

    And Job 1 and Job 2 demonstrate "the reality" of having a council in heaven review evidence, debate something and how it affects the saints on Earth while that is happening.
     
  8. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    But they could travel and see Him, though. Who would not want to see Jesus? That would be like saying... who would not want to eat food? So no. I disagree. I believe the main point is faith is the reason why He went to be at the right hand of the Father and to be our Heavenly High Priest. Yes, He will go and prepare a place for us, too. No doubt about it. That certain is one reason, but I do not think it is the main reason. I still believe it is faith. For God seeks faith from man. For without faith it is impossible to please Him (GOD). For it is by faith in how we are saved. God is concerned with our salvation and that always includes faith. So I am sorry. I will pass on the cookie cutter denominational explanation.
     
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    It's a big planet and the only means people had was walking and sail boats. Now it is true that some would take the months/years to make that trip "before believing" --- no doubt. But millions would just have to "believe".

    Jesus did not say " I go so that those who believe will no longer believe based on seeing me in person". Many Jews in Israel "saw Christ" and did not believe. Jesus appeared directly to Saul before he was Paul.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2021
  10. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I made my point and it is obvious. But you see what you want to see. If a person has a means to get to Jesus, they will find a way. So no I am not buying what your selling. It's faith that is the main point or reason why. That's why we are here now.
     
  11. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    Jesus left the earth to send the Spirit. He told us that.

    John 19:30
    Easy-to-Read Version
    30 When he tasted the wine, he said, “It is finished.” Then he bowed his head and died.

    Hebrews 9:11-13
    King James Version
    11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

    12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

    13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

    Hebrews 12:2
    King James Version
    2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
     
  12. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    Hebrews 8-10
    Easy-to-Read Version
    Jesus Our High Priest
    8 Here is the point of what we are saying: We have a high priest like that, who sits on the right side[a] of God’s throne in heaven. 2 Our high priest serves in the Most Holy Place. He serves in the true place of worship[c] that was made by God, not by anyone here on earth.

    3 Every high priest has the work of offering gifts and sacrifices to God. So our high priest must also offer something to God. 4 If our high priest were now living on earth, he would not be a priest. I say this because there are already priests here who follow the law by offering gifts to God. 5 The work that these priests do is really only a copy and a shadow of what is in heaven. That is why God warned Moses when he was ready to build the Holy Tent: “Be sure to make everything exactly like the pattern I showed you on the mountain.”[d] 6 But the work that has been given to Jesus is much greater than the work that was given to those priests. In the same way, the new agreement that Jesus brought from God to his people is much greater than the old one. And the new agreement is based on better promises.

    7 If there was nothing wrong with the first agreement, then there would be no need for a second agreement. 8 But God found something wrong with the people. He said,

    “The time is coming, says the Lord,
    when I will give a new agreement
    to the people of Israel and to the people of Judah.
    9 It will not be like the agreement
    that I gave to their fathers.
    That is the agreement I gave when I took them by the hand
    and led them out of Egypt.
    They did not continue following the agreement I gave them,
    and I turned away from them, says the Lord.
    10 This is the new agreement I will give the people of Israel.
    I will give this agreement in the future, says the Lord:
    I will put my laws in their minds,
    and I will write my laws on their hearts.
    I will be their God,
    and they will be my people.
    11 Never again will anyone have to teach their neighbors
    or their family to know the Lord.
    All people—the greatest and the least important—will know me.
    12 And I will forgive the wrongs they have done,
    and I will not remember their sins.”

    13 God called this a new agreement, so he has made the first agreement old. And anything that is old and useless is ready to disappear.

    Worship Under the Old Agreement
    9 The first agreement had rules for worship and a place for worship here on earth. 2 This place was inside a tent. The first area in the tent was called the Holy Place. In the Holy Place were the lamp and the table with the special bread offered to God. 3 Behind the second curtain was a room called the Most Holy Place. 4 In the Most Holy Place was a golden altar for burning incense. And also there was the Box of the Agreement. The Box was covered with gold. Inside this Box was a golden jar of manna and Aaron’s rod—the rod that once grew leaves. Also in the Box were the flat stones with the Ten Commandments of the old agreement on them. 5 Above the Box were the Cherub angels that showed God’s glory. These Cherub angels were over the place of mercy.[e] But we cannot say everything about this now.

    6 Everything in the tent was made ready in the way I have explained. Then the priests went into the first room every day to do their worship duties. 7 But only the high priest could go into the second room, and he went in only once a year. Also, he could never enter that room without taking blood with him. He offered that blood to God for himself and for the sins the people committed without knowing they were sinning.

    8 The Holy Spirit uses those two separate rooms to teach us that the way into the Most Holy Place[f] was not open while the first room was still there. 9 This is an example for us today. It shows that the gifts and sacrifices the priests offer to God are not able to make the consciences of the worshipers completely clear. 10 These gifts and sacrifices are only about food and drink and special washings. They are only rules about the body. God gave them for his people to follow until the time of his new way.

    Worship Under the New Agreement
    11 But Christ has already come to be the high priest. He is the high priest of the good things we now have. But Christ does not serve in a place like the tent that those other priests served in. He serves in a better place. Unlike that tent, this one is perfect. It was not made by anyone here on earth. It does not belong to this world. 12 Christ entered the Most Holy Place only one time—enough for all time. He entered the Most Holy Place by using his own blood, not the blood of goats or young bulls. He entered there and made us free from sin forever.

    13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a cow were sprinkled on those who were no longer pure enough to enter the place of worship. The blood and ashes made them pure again—but only their bodies. 14 So surely the blood sacrifice of Christ can do much more. Christ offered himself through the eternal Spirit[g] as a perfect sacrifice to God. His blood will make us completely clean from the evil we have done. It will give us clear consciences so that we can worship the living God.

    15 So Christ brings a new agreement from God to his people. He brings this agreement so that those who are chosen by God can have the blessings God promised, blessings that last forever. This can happen only because Christ died to free people from sins committed against the commands of the first agreement.

    16 When someone dies and leaves a will, there must be proof that the one who wrote the will is dead. 17 A will means nothing while the one who wrote it is still living. It can be used only after that person’s death. 18 That is why blood was needed to begin the first agreement between God and his people. 19 First, Moses told the people every command in the law. Then he took the blood of young bulls and mixed it with water. He used red wool and a branch of hyssop to sprinkle the blood and water on the book of the law and on all the people. 20 Then he said, “This is the blood that makes the agreement good—the agreement that God commanded you to follow.”[h] 21 In the same way, Moses sprinkled the blood on the Holy Tent. He sprinkled the blood over everything used in worship. 22 The law says that almost everything must be made clean by blood. Sins cannot be forgiven without a blood sacrifice.

    Jesus Christ Is Our Sacrifice for Sin
    23 These things are copies of the real things that are in heaven. These copies had to be made clean by animal sacrifices. But the real things in heaven must have much better sacrifices. 24 Christ went into the Most Holy Place. But it was not the man-made one, which is only a copy of the real one. He went into heaven, and he is there now before God to help us.

    25 The high priest enters the Most Holy Place once every year. He takes with him blood to offer. But he does not offer his own blood like Christ did. Christ went into heaven, but not to offer himself many times like the high priest offers blood again and again. 26 If Christ had offered himself many times, he would have needed to suffer many times since the time the world was made. But he came to offer himself only once. And that once is enough for all time. He came at a time when the world is nearing an end. He came to take away all sin by offering himself as a sacrifice.

    27 Everyone must die once. Then they are judged. 28 So Christ was offered as a sacrifice one time to take away the sins of many people. And he will come a second time, but not to offer himself for sin. He will come the second time to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

    Jesus Christ—the Only Sacrifice We Need
    10 The law gave us only an unclear picture of the good things coming in the future. The law is not a perfect picture of the real things. The law tells people to offer the same sacrifices every year. Those who come to worship God continue to offer those sacrifices. But the law can never make them perfect. 2 If the law could make people perfect, those sacrifices would have already stopped. They would already be clean from their sins, and they would not still feel guilty. 3 But that’s not what happens. Their sacrifices make them remember their sins every year, 4 because it is not possible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

    5 So when Christ came into the world he said,

    “You don’t want sacrifices and offerings,
    but you have prepared a body for me.
    6 You are not pleased with the sacrifices of animals killed and burned
    or with offerings to take away sins.
    7 Then I said, ‘Here I am, God.
    It is written about me in the book of the law.
    I have come to do what you want.’”

    8 Christ first said, “You don’t want sacrifices and offerings. You are not pleased with animals killed and burned or with sacrifices to take away sin.” (These are all sacrifices that the law commands.) 9 Then he said, “Here I am, God. I have come to do what you want.” So God ends that first system of sacrifices and starts his new way. 10 Jesus Christ did the things God wanted him to do. And because of that, we are made holy through the sacrifice of Christ’s body. Christ made that sacrifice one time—enough for all time.

    11 Every day the priests stand and do their religious service. Again and again they offer the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But Christ offered only one sacrifice for sins, and that sacrifice is good for all time. Then he sat down at the right side of God. 13 And now Christ waits there for his enemies to be put under his power. 14 With one sacrifice Christ made his people perfect forever. They are the ones who are being made holy.

    15 The Holy Spirit also tells us about this. First he says,

    16 “This is the agreement[j] I will make
    with my people in the future, says the Lord.
    I will put my laws in their hearts.
    I will write my laws in their minds.”

    17 Then he says,

    “I will forget their sins
    and never again remember the evil they have done.”

    18 And after everything is forgiven, there is no more need for a sacrifice to pay for sins.

    Come Near to God
    19 And so, brothers and sisters, we are completely free to enter the Most Holy Place.[k] We can do this without fear because of the blood sacrifice of Jesus. 20 We enter through a new way that Jesus opened for us. It is a living way that leads through the curtain—Christ’s body. 21 And we have a great priest who rules the house of God. 22 Sprinkled with the blood of Christ, our hearts have been made free from a guilty conscience, and our bodies have been washed with pure water. So come near to God with a sincere heart, full of confidence because of our faith in Christ. 23 We must hold on to the hope we have, never hesitating to tell people about it. We can trust God to do what he promised.

    Help Each Other Be Strong
    24 We should think about each other to see how we can encourage each other to show love and do good works. 25 We must not quit meeting together, as some are doing. No, we need to keep on encouraging each other. This becomes more and more important as you see the Day getting closer.

    Don’t Turn Away From God’s Son
    26 If we decide to continue sinning after we have learned the truth, then there is no other sacrifice that will take away sins. 27 If we continue sinning, all that is left for us is a fearful time of waiting for the judgment and the angry fire that will destroy those who live against God. 28 Whoever refused to obey the Law of Moses was found guilty from the testimony given by two or three witnesses. Such people were not forgiven. They were killed. 29 So think how much more punishment people deserve who show their hate for the Son of God—people who show they have no respect for the blood sacrifice that began the new agreement and once made them holy or who insult the Spirit of God’s grace. 30 We know that God said, “I will punish people for the wrongs they do; I will repay them.”[l] And he also said, “The Lord will judge his people.”[m] 31 It is a terrible thing to face punishment from the living God.

    Keep the Courage and Patience You Had
    32 Remember the days when you first learned the truth. You had a hard struggle with much suffering, but you continued strong. 33 Sometimes people said hateful things to you and mistreated you in public. And sometimes you helped others who were being treated that same way. 34 Yes, you helped them in prison and shared in their suffering. And you were still happy when everything you owned was taken away from you. You continued to be happy, because you knew that you had something much better—something that would continue forever.

    35 So don’t lose the courage that you had in the past. Your courage will be rewarded richly. 36 You must be patient. After you have done what God wants, you will get what he promised you. 37 He says,

    “Very soon now, the one who is coming
    will come and will not be late.
    38 The person who is right with me
    will live by trusting in me.
    But I will not be pleased with the one
    who turns back in fear.”

    39 But we are not those who turn back and are lost. No, we are the people who have faith and are saved.
     
  13. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    Romans 2
    Easy-to-Read Version
    Let God Be the Judge
    2 So do you think that you can judge those other people? You are wrong. You too are guilty of sin. You judge them, but you do the same things they do. So when you judge them, you are really condemning yourself. 2 God judges all who do such things, and we know his judgment is right. 3 And since you do the same things as those people you judge, surely you understand that God will punish you too. How could you think you would be able to escape his judgment? 4 God has been kind to you. He has been very patient, waiting for you to change. But you think nothing of his kindness. Maybe you don’t understand that God is kind to you so that you will decide to change your lives.

    5 But you are so stubborn! You refuse to change. So you are making your own punishment greater and greater. You will be punished on the day when God will show his anger. On that day everyone will see how right God is to judge people. 6 He will reward or punish everyone for what they have done. 7 Some people live for God’s glory, for honor, and for life that cannot be destroyed. They live for those things by always continuing to do good. God will give eternal life to them. 8 But others are selfish and refuse to follow truth. They follow evil. God will show his anger and punish them. 9 He will give trouble and suffering to everyone who does evil—to the Jews first and also to those who are not Jews. 10 But he will give glory, honor, and peace to everyone who does good—to the Jews first and also to those who are not Jews. 11 God judges everyone the same. It doesn’t matter who they are.

    12 People who have the law and those who have never heard of the law are all the same when they sin. People who don’t have the law and are sinners will be lost. And, in the same way, those who have the law and are sinners will be judged by the law. 13 Hearing the law does not make people right with God. They will be right before him only if they always do what the law says.

    14 Those who are not Jews don’t have the law. But when they naturally do what the law commands without even knowing the law, then they are their own law. This is true even though they don’t have the written law. 15 They show that in their hearts they know what is right and wrong, the same as the law commands, and their consciences agree. Sometimes their thoughts tell them that they have done wrong, and this makes them guilty. And sometimes their thoughts tell them that they have done right, and this makes them not guilty.

    16 All this will happen on the day when God will judge people’s secret thoughts through Jesus Christ. This is part of the Good News that I tell everyone.

    The Jews and the Law
    17 What about you? You say you are a Jew. You trust in the law and proudly claim to be close to God. 18 You know what God wants you to do. And you know what is important, because you have learned the law. 19 You think you are a guide for people who don’t know the right way, a light for those who are in the dark. 20 You think you can show foolish people what is right. And you think you are a teacher for those who are just beginning to learn. You have the law, and so you think you know everything and have all truth. 21 You teach others, so why don’t you teach yourself? You tell them not to steal, but you yourself steal. 22 You say they must not commit adultery, but you yourself are guilty of that sin. You hate idols, but you steal them from their temples. 23 You are so proud that you have God’s law, but you bring shame to God by breaking his law. 24 As the Scriptures say, “People in other nations insult God because of you.”[a]

    25 If you follow the law, then your circumcision has meaning. But if you break the law, then it is as if you were never circumcised. 26 Those who are not Jews are not circumcised. But if they do what the law says, it is as if they were circumcised. 27 You have the written law and circumcision, but you break the law. So those who are not circumcised in their bodies, but still obey the law, will show that you are guilty.

    28 You are not a true Jew if you are only a Jew in your physical body. True circumcision is not only on the outside of the body. 29 A true Jew is one who is a Jew inside. True circumcision is done in the heart. It is done by the Spirit, not by the written law. And anyone who is circumcised in the heart by the Spirit gets praise from God, not from people.

    Footnotes
    Romans 2:24 Quote from Isa. 52:5. See also Ezek. 36:20-23.
    Romans 8
    Easy-to-Read Version
    Life in the Spirit
    8 So now anyone who is in Christ Jesus is not judged guilty. 2 That is because in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit that brings life made you[a] free. It made you free from the law that brings sin and death. 3 The law was without power because it was made weak by our sinful selves. But God did what the law could not do: He sent his own Son to earth with the same human life that everyone else uses for sin. God sent him to be an offering to pay for sin. So God used a human life to destroy sin. 4 He did this so that we could be right just as the law said we must be. Now we don’t live following our sinful selves. We live following the Spirit.

    5 People who live following their sinful selves think only about what they want. But those who live following the Spirit are thinking about what the Spirit wants them to do. 6 If your thinking is controlled by your sinful self, there is spiritual death. But if your thinking is controlled by the Spirit, there is life and peace. 7 Why is this true? Because anyone whose thinking is controlled by their sinful self is against God. They refuse to obey God’s law. And really they are not able to obey it. 8 Those who are ruled by their sinful selves cannot please God.

    9 But you are not ruled by your sinful selves. You are ruled by the Spirit, if that Spirit of God really lives in you. But whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Christ. 10 Your body will always be dead because of sin. But if Christ is in you, then the Spirit gives you life, because Christ made you right with God. 11 God raised Jesus from death. And if God’s Spirit lives in you, he will also give life to your bodies that die. Yes, God is the one who raised Christ from death, and he will raise you to life through his Spirit living in you.

    12 So, my brothers and sisters, we must not be ruled by our sinful selves. We must not live the way our sinful selves want. 13 If you use your lives to do what your sinful selves want, you will die spiritually. But if you use the Spirit’s help to stop doing the wrong things you do with your body, you will have true life.

    14 The true children of God are those who let God’s Spirit lead them. 15 The Spirit that we received is not a spirit that makes us slaves again and causes us to fear. The Spirit that we have makes us God’s chosen children. And with that Spirit we cry out, “ Abba, Father.” 16 And the Spirit himself speaks to our spirits and makes us sure that we are God’s children. 17 If we are God’s children, we will get the blessings God has for his people. He will give us all that he has given Christ. But we must suffer like Christ suffered. Then we will be able to share his glory.

    We Will Have Glory in the Future
    18 We have sufferings now, but these are nothing compared to the great glory that will be given to us. 19 Everything that God made is waiting with excitement for the time when he will show the world who his children are. The whole world wants very much for that to happen. 20 Everything God made was allowed to become like something that cannot fulfill its purpose. That was not its choice, but God made it happen with this hope in view: 21 That the creation would be made free from ruin—that everything God made would have the same freedom and glory that belong to God’s children.

    22 We know that everything God made has been waiting until now in pain like a woman ready to give birth to a child. 23 Not only the world, but we also have been waiting with pain inside us. We have the Spirit as the first part of God’s promise. So we are waiting for God to finish making us his own children. I mean we are waiting for our bodies to be made free. 24 We were saved to have this hope. If we can see what we are waiting for, that is not really hope. People don’t hope for something they already have. 25 But we are hoping for something we don’t have yet, and we are waiting for it patiently.

    26 Also, the Spirit helps us. We are very weak, but the Spirit helps us with our weakness. We don’t know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit himself speaks to God for us. He begs God for us, speaking to him with feelings too deep for words. 27 God already knows our deepest thoughts. And he understands what the Spirit is saying, because the Spirit speaks for his people in the way that agrees with what God wants.

    28 We know that in everything God works for the good of those who love him. These are the people God chose, because that was his plan. 29 God knew them before he made the world. And he decided that they would be like his Son. Then Jesus would be the firstborn of many brothers and sisters. 30 God planned for them to be like his Son. He chose them and made them right with him. And after he made them right, he gave them his glory.

    God’s Love in Christ Jesus
    31 So what should we say about this? If God is for us, no one can stand against us. And God is with us. 32 He even let his own Son suffer for us. God gave his Son for all of us. So now with Jesus, God will surely give us all things. 33 Who can accuse the people God has chosen? No one! God is the one who makes them right. 34 Who can say that God’s people are guilty? No one! Christ Jesus died for us, but that is not all. He was also raised from death. And now he is at God’s right side, speaking to him for us. 35 Can anything separate us from Christ’s love? Can trouble or problems or persecution separate us from his love? If we have no food or clothes or face danger or even death, will that separate us from his love? 36 As the Scriptures say,

    “For you we are in danger of death all the time.
    People think we are worth no more than sheep to be killed.”

    37 But in all these troubles we have complete victory through God, who has shown his love for us. 38-39 Yes, I am sure that nothing can separate us from God’s love—not death, life, angels, or ruling spirits. I am sure that nothing now, nothing in the future, no powers, nothing above us or nothing below us—nothing in the whole created world—will ever be able to separate us from the love God has shown us in Christ Jesus our Lord.
     
  14. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    Romans 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

    Daniel 7
    King James Version
    7 In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon Daniel had a dream and visions of his head upon his bed: then he wrote the dream, and told the sum of the matters.

    2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.

    3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.

    4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.

    5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.

    6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.

    7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

    8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

    9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

    10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

    11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

    12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

    13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

    14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

    15 I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me.

    16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.

    17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.

    18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

    19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;

    20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
     
  15. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    read to here
     
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    I am not selling... I am reading.

    John 14:1-3 is where Jesus Himself gives the reason that He is leaving - it has hard to address that topic while ignoring what He says about it.

    John 14
    “Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many rooms; if that were not so, I would have told you, because I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will take you to Myself, so that where I am, there you also will be.

    Daniel 7 does not point to carpentry (nor does John 14) but rather to judgment when completed - then triggers the 2nd coming.

    Again ... I am "reading" - to see what triggers the 2nd coming... not "selling"
     
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Indeed that is where we see the basis on which some are accepted and some are rejected in the Gospel Judgment future to Paul's day according to Rom 2:16 - future to the fall of the pagan Roman empire according to Daniel 7... future to the close of the 1260 years of dark ages according to Daniel 7.

    So then... Rom 2
    2 And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things. 3 But do you suppose this, you foolish person who passes judgment on those who practice such things, and yet does them as well, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and restraint and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will repay each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life; 8 but to those who are self-serving and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, He will give wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of mankind who does evil, for the Jew first and also for the Greek, 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who does what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

    12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the Law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law instinctively perform the requirements of the Law, these, though not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of mankind through Christ Jesus.

    ...
    25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a violator of the Law, your circumcision has turned into uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will his uncircumcision not be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a violator of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from people, but from God.

    Notice Rom 2:15-16 "Law written" -- where?

    The "Law written on the heart" is the Jer 31:31-34 New Covenant (as Paul reminds us in Heb 8:6-12.) And as he says in Rom 2 of that new heart "circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit"
     
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Its the part you are leaving out that would be helpful in the case of Dan 7 as noted in post #2 Tuesday at 10:31 AM #2
     
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Heb 8:1-5 "The MAIN POINT" is what Christ is doing ... follow Christ.

    Heb 8:
    Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord set up, not man. 3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer. 4 Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law; 5 who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, “See,” He says, “that you make all things by the pattern which was shown to you on the mountain.”

    1 John 2:2 says the FINISHED work of "atoning sacrifice" was completed "once for all" Heb 10 - at the cross - but now as Christ is doing work in heaven "the main point" is to follow Him there - He is our High Priest in heaven and is doing what He said He would be doing in His Lev 16 model of "Day of Atonement". Which again points to the work of Christ in Dan 7 who comes to the Ancient of Day and engages in the royal court event as describe in Dan 7:9-10,22

    Dan 7
    9 “I kept looking
    Until thrones were set up,
    And the Ancient of Days
    took His seat;
    His garment was white as snow,
    And the hair of His head like pure wool.
    His throne was ablaze with flames,
    Its wheels were a burning fire.
    10 A river of fire was flowing
    And coming out from before Him;
    Thousands upon thousands were serving Him,
    And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
    The court convened,
    And the books were opened
    .

    ..

    The Son of Man Presented
    13 “I kept looking in the night visions,
    And behold, with the clouds of heaven
    One like a son of man was coming,
    And He came up to the Ancient of Days

    And was presented before Him.
    14 And to Him was given dominion,
    Honor, and a kingdom,
    So that all the peoples, nations, and populations of all languages
    Might serve Him.
    His dominion is an everlasting dominion
    Which will not pass away;
    And His kingdom is one
    Which will not be destroyed.


    ...21 I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.

    25 And he (little-horn-power) will speak against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be handed over to him for a time, times, and half a time. 26 But the court will convene for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, the dominion, and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the empires will serve and obey Him.’
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2021
  20. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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