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Adulteress in John and ending of Mark not in early manuscripts?

Discussion in 'Exploring Christianity' started by JohnClay, May 22, 2019.

  1. JohnClay

    JohnClay Newbie Supporter

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    Apparently the adulteress that was going to be stoned wasn't in early manuscripts of John:
    Jesus and the woman taken in adultery - Wikipedia
    Also the ending of Mark was added to in later manuscripts:
    Mark 16 - Wikipedia
    There are many more examples but I'll just focus on these two for now.
    My question for Christians is what they believe as far as these additions go. Are they the true word of God?
    e.g.
    Mark 16:18 - "They will pick up snakes with their hands. And when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all"
     
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  2. Hammster

    Hammster Who has believed our report? Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    I don’t think that they should be considered scripture.
     
  3. crossnote

    crossnote Berean Supporter

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    Depends on which set of existing manuscripts you go by. Some have it, some don't.
     
  4. Basil the Great

    Basil the Great Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The extended ending of Mark is especially suspicious.
     
  5. Sketcher

    Sketcher Born Imperishable

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    Sure.
    Reminds me a bit of Acts 28:1-10.
     
  6. timewerx

    timewerx the village i--o--t--

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    Not entirely unfounded.

    Some early sects turned to vegetarianism. Many poisons are derived from plants. In fact, there's probably more species of wild plants that are poisonous to eat (without any preparation) than those that are not. Obviously, generations of vegetarian diet might build up the body's resistance to poisons including plant-based cyanide.

    Those living at the edge of civilization might even build greater resistance to poisons due to diet of wild plants. Prophet John the Baptist and other prophets that lived like hermits comes to mind.

    It is fact, there are many herbivores (animals with mostly plant-based diet) that are immune to poisons quite lethal to humans.

    It is also said in Hebrews that some Christians that are being severely persecuted at the time have resorted to living in the wild, outside of cities/civilization.

    They are likely to build (through adaptive mutation / natural selection) natural body resistance to poisons by adapting to vegetarian diet and living in the wild (to escape persecution). Such would be the fate of the true Christians in the Book of Hebrew at a great cost (living like hermits/animals).
     
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  7. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    The ending of Mark is interesting. Early fathers did know of it:

    Bruce Metzger, The Canon of the New Testament: its Origin, Development, and Significance (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1987), pp. 269-270.

    ... we may find it instructive to consider the attitude of Church Fathers toward variant readings in the text of the New Testament. On the one hand, as far as certain readings involve sensitive points of doctrine, the Fathers customarily alleged that heretics had tampered with the accuracy of the text. On the other hand, however, the question of the canonicity of a document apparently did not arise in connection with discussion of such variant readings, even though they might involve quite considerable sections of text. Today we know that the last twelve verses of the Gospel according to Mark (xvi. 9-20) are absent from the oldest Greek, Latin, Syriac, Coptic, and Armenian manuscripts, and that in other manuscripts asterisks or obeli mark the verses as doubtful or spurious. Eusebius and Jerome, well aware of such variation in the witnesses, discussed which form of text was to be preferred. It is noteworthy, however, that neither Father suggested that one form was canonical and the other was not. Furthermore, the perception that the canon was basically closed did not lead to a slavish fixing of the text of the canonical books. Thus, the category of 'canonical' appears to have been broad enough to include all variant readings (as well as variant renderings in early versions) that emerged during the course of the transmission of the New Testament documents while apostolic tradition was still a living entity, with an intermingling of written and oral forms of that tradition. Already in the second century, for example, the so-called long ending of Mark was known to Justin Martyr and to Tatian, who incorporated it into his Diatesseron. There seems to be good reason, therefore, to conclude that, though external and internal evidence is conclusive against the authenticity of the last twelve verses as coming from the same pen as the rest of the Gospel, the passage ought to be accepted as part of the canonical text of Mark.
     
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  8. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    But what is most significant for the reliability and authority of the New Testament is that the variations that textual critics are unsure of are not the kind that would change any Christian doctrine. For example, in our passage from John 7:53–8:11, no truth that this Gospel teaches is changed by omitting this story. [F.F. Bruce]Bruce says, “The variant readings about which any doubt remains among textual critics of the New Testament affects no material question of historic fact or of Christian faith and practice” (The New Testament Documents, 20).
    Neither Do I Condemn You

    The verses about the adulteress might refer to an incident that actually happened.
     
  9. JohnClay

    JohnClay Newbie Supporter

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    On the topic of additions:

    Luke 3:35b-36 - "...the son of Shelah, the son of Cainan, the son of Arphaxad"

    Genesis 11:12 - "When Arphaxad had lived 35 years, he became the father of Shelah"

    Contradictions: An Extra Cainan?
    "Early copies of LXX do not have the extra Cainan in Genesis 11, but later copies postdating Luke’s gospel do have the extra Cainan."

    I don't think it is possible for a Christian to reasonably argue that Cainan is and isn't in the Genesis genealogy.
     
  10. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Tatian:

    The Diatessaron (Section 55)


    Matthew 28:16 But the eleven disciples went into Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had 2appointed them. Matthew 28:17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but there were of 3 them who doubted. Mark 16:14 And while they sat there he appeared to them again, and upbraided them for their lack of faith and the hardness of their hearts, those that saw him when he was risen, and believed not.

    4 [Arabic, p. 209] Matthew 28:18b Then said Jesus unto them, I have been given all authority in heaven 5 and earth; and as my Father has sent me, so I also send you. Go now into 6 all the world, and preach my gospel in all the creation; Matthew 28:19b and teach all the peoples, and 7 baptize them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit; Matthew 28:20 and teach them to keep all whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you all the days, unto 8 the end of the world. Mark 16:16 For whosoever believes and is baptized shall be saved; but 9 whosoever believes not shall be rejected. Mark 16:17 And the signs which shall attend those that believein me are these: that they shall cast out devils in my name; and they 10 shall speak with new tongues; Mark 16:18 and they shall take upserpents, and if they drink deadly poison, it shall not injure them; and they shall lay their hands on the diseased, 11 and they shall be healed. Luke 24:49b But you, abide in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be clothed with power from on high.

    12 And our Lord Jesus, after speaking to them, took them out to Bethany: and he 13 lifted up his hands, and blessed them. And while he blessed them, he was separated from them, and ascended into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God. 14, 15 Luke 24:52 And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy: Luke 24:53 and at all times they were in the temple, praising and blessing God. Amen.

    16 Mark 16:20 And from thence they went forth, and preached in every place; and our Lord helped them, and confirmed their sayings by the signs which they did.

    17 John 21:25 And here are also many other things which Jesus did, which if they were written every one of them, not even the world, according to my opinion, would contain the books which should be written.

    CHURCH FATHERS: The Diatessaron, Section 55 (Tatian)
     
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  11. St_Worm2

    St_Worm2 Senior Member Supporter

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    Hi @JohnClay, I don't believe that either passage changes the meaning of anything that is said in the rest of the Bible, especially in regard to salvation and eternal life, but choosing to drink a cup of poison (or handling poisonous snakes) could certainly have a detrimental effect on your life in the here and now :eek:

    --David
     
  12. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Which manuscripts of the LXX do you speak of?
     
  13. JohnClay

    JohnClay Newbie Supporter

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    Contradictions: An Extra Cainan?
    I assume AiG got it from a reasonable source. (see their footnote)
     
  14. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    A copiest error is not a contradiction.
     
  15. JohnClay

    JohnClay Newbie Supporter

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    They are saying that the Cainan in Luke was a copyest error and Genesis 11 was deliberately added to - perhaps to try and stop that contradiction.
     
  16. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Not in the earlier LXX manuscripts nor any of the Hebrew manuscripts.
     
  17. JohnClay

    JohnClay Newbie Supporter

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  18. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    They don’t call it a contradiction.
     
  19. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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  20. JohnClay

    JohnClay Newbie Supporter

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    The Bible would often be based on the earliest known manuscripts. (though additions like John and Mark are there as well)

    English translations

    It means he was born 650 years earlier. Those extra 100's are just in Genesis 11.
     
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