Addressing some issues

[iitb]

I have to say, I really hate having to do this kind of stuff, but a few things that have come up today have forced my hand. EVERYONE who comes into this forum really needs to consider the following:

1) The members of this forum do not consider Christians our enemies! Just as Protestants and Catholics disagree, sometimes rather strongly, Messianics are going to have a few issues with the practices of non-Messianics. Does this mean we are judging their salvation? No. Does this mean that we feel like we are better than them? No. It simply means we disagree on a few doctrinal issues. Please try not to read anything in to anyone's posts.

2) Halacha: people are going to disagree about it. Some feel that it's okay to listen to Orthodox Rabbis, some feel you should only listen to Messianic Rabbis, and still others feel like you should let the spirit lead. None of these views are necessarily wrong, they are simply differences of opinion.

Finally, my most important point,

3) Somebody disagreeing with you doesn't make them wrong, nor does it give you the right to call them a heretic or accuse them of anything else along those lines! Messianic Judaism isn't the Catholic Church; it does not have one set doctrine for everyone to follow. To quote Yafet, Messianic Judaism is as varied as the colors of the rainbow. We can either try to understand one another, or we can just attack one another until everyone is chased away. The choice is yours.

 

[Henaynei]

I'd like to add something to that ......

OMEYN!!

 

[visionary]

Amen....name calling....is running out of explanations
explanation of understanding...clarafication of definitions...research to back up opinion are just that....let the Holy Spirit do the work of Conviction, Jesus the work of Redemption, and God the work of Judgment.

 

[schwartmrs]

OOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!

let the Holy Spirit do the work of Conviction, Jesus the work of Redemption, and God the work of Judgment.

I like that!!!! I like that a lot!!!! Can I swipe that ?????

Oh, and amen

Shade

 

[JewishHeart]

Is this directed at me ? Because I never remember calling anybody names. I once stated about a month ago that I believed someone's particular belief that they posted was heretical according to the forum rules and its own use of the word heretical (Nicean Creed), but I never called anybody a heretic.

The members of this forum do not consider Christians our enemies

I'm glad we got that straightened out, thats all I wanted to know.

Halacha: people are going to disagree about it.

I've cooled down on this issue.

 

[JewishHeart]

Justin,

All I ask is that in issues of addressing the church and paganism that it all won't be "ANTI." That they will at least put one sentence in each post addressing these issues that give the christian church 'the benefit of the doubt.'

I call this "zeal with wisdom."

I also call this "balance."

 

[JewishHeart]

Justin,

As well I think you should encourage threads like " A Messianic Put His Hat Off To Christians" to encourage other readers that although messianics disagree with much christian theology ( I would be the first to say this as I as well do not celebrate the christian holidays and celebrate the feasts and Shabatt) , that we still respect these facts :

1.) We respect the christian church for provoking the messianic Jewish community to jealousy unto salvation (Romans 11).

2.) We respect the blood, sweat, and tears many christians have shed for the truth of the gospel.

3.) Although our doctrines are different, we will not become sectarian. In other words we will not develop an almost cultic-like anti-dependency from the body of Messiah at large (including many christians). It almost reminds me of some christian denominations that are very seperated from the body (UPC,etc.).

I think that my thread would actually encourage and show the christians this statement so they don't feel threatened or seperated from messianics.

The members of this forum do not consider Christians our enemies!

By the way, why didn't anybody write down christian authors or pioneers they respect?

Even one.

 

[JewishHeart]

I also think it is a great idea to discuss through some of these issues. Why some people think I generalize their opinion, they have not given me a chance to talk through these issues. People just attack me back without trying to understand what I see and where I'm coming from and having a nice discussion to talk through these things to see where our misunderstandings are.

 

[JewishHeart]

Justin,

Let me ask you this question.

As a moderator do you think the board lacks an overall balance on the question of paganism and christianity?

 

[JewishHeart]

If you ever see me on a christian board, I try to bring an opposite balance than what I am bringing here. I try to let them understand the messianic movement (as a messianic), I even, gently, show them the roots of the christian holidays. I encourage them the purpose of the Tanach for today, etc. I'm just as criticized over there as I am here (not CF, but a different christian forum). My heart is to see the One New Man, Jew and Gentile, One in Messiah. I challenge both sides according to this goal.

 

[Hix]

Justin,

As well I think you should encourage threads like " A Messianic Put His Hat Off To Christians" to encourage other readers that although messianics disagree with much christian theology ( I would be the first to say this as I as well do not celebrate the christian holidays and celebrate the feasts and Shabatt) , that we still respect these facts :

1.) We respect the christian church for provoking the messianic Jewish community to jealousy unto salvation (Romans 11).

2.) We respect the blood, sweat, and tears many christians have shed for the truth of the gospel.

3.) Although our doctrines are different, we will not become sectarian. In other words we will not develop an almost cultic-like anti-dependency from the body of Messiah at large (including many christians). It almost reminds me of some christian denominations that are very seperated from the body (UPC,etc.).

I think that my thread would actually encourage and show the christians this statement so they don't feel threatened or seperated from messianics.

Who is this "We"? The royal we?
Not everyone will agree with your opinions here JH, Im afraid thats going to have to be something you will have to accept and move on from. Personally I have a great deal of respect for christians and almost all of my relatives are indeed christians, but in my personal opinion there is too big a seperation of theology. Otherwise you could group Judaism and Christianity together as well, but the common mistake is that Judaism is NOT just Christianity with the Brit Chadasha removed, so too Messianic Judaism is not just christianity in some peoples opinions.

Thats the key here. It is a message board were we present our opinions, if you dont happen to like or accept someones opinion then you have to move on. I understand your zeal for your beliefs and it is a credit to you, but many of us are just as zealous for what we believe and for what G-d tells us. Lets just try and get along as Messianics who respect each others opinions, no?

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

 

[JewishHeart]

I'm zealous for balance.

 

[JewishHeart]

but in my personal opinion there is too big a seperation of theology. Otherwise you could group Judaism and Christianity together as well, but the common mistake is that Judaism is NOT just Christianity with the Brit Chadasha removed, so too Messianic Judaism is not just christianity in some peoples opinions.

This type of quote scares me in where the messianic movement is going, and I'm allowed to state my opinion just like you are yours. We should not seperate ourselves from our christian brothers and sisters."Too Big of a Gap" for what? To be in the same body of believers?

 

[JewishHeart]

Who is this "We"? The royal we?

We- means messianics

BTW Hix- when I see a statement I disagree with , I'm allowed to disagree with it and face it just like you guys do the same with my opinions.

[/QUOTE] It is a message board were we present our opinions, if you dont happen to like or accept someones opinion then you have to move on. I understand your zeal for your beliefs and it is a credit to you, but many of us are just as zealous for what we believe and for what G-d tells us. Lets just try and get along as Messianics who respect each others opinions, no?

The thing is that I weep inside for my fellow messianic brothers and sisters. I have a prophetic conviction and responsibility to warn (this is addressing all messianics and not just this board) the messianic movement that by seperating ourselves from the christians we are making a big mistake. I've seen this over and over in many messianic congregations. It has gotten to the point where the messianic rabi in a city is not in touch with the christian zionist pastors. It grieves me. I'm gripped with burden. I'm equally gripped with burden that the christians don't understand the messianic movement. I think as brothers we should embrace each other and work together. The foot shouldn't say to the arm that we don't need you, remember?

 

[Hix]

1. I said this is MY opinion on the matter.
2. I have a tremendous amount of respect for Christians as I said, I never said they lose salvation or dont know G-d or any such.
3. IMHO we are not the same body of believers.
4. You still have not learned to accept peoples opinions that dont agree with you.

 

[JewishHeart]

3. IMHO we are not the same body of believers

Ok- I understand your opinion, disagree with you, and will move on. But it saddens me.

 

[JewishHeart]

BTW- My feelings were at least right with one if not more on this forum

 

[Hix]

Im well aware that there are others on this forum with the same opinion as you, infact Im sure there are many. But thats the thing! I dont mind at all, they are still Messianics and while we may not agree on theology it doesnt mean we cant be friends and learn from each other, rather than going on tangents every time someone expresses their opinions!

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

 

[JewishHeart]

The difference is my heart burns on the issue of the One New Man.

 

[iitb]

Is this directed at me ? Because I never remember calling anybody names. I once stated about a month ago that I believed someone's particular belief that they posted was heretical according to the forum rules and its own use of the word heretical (Nicean Creed), but I never called anybody a heretic.

I'd be lying if I said you weren't part of the inspiration for this thread. However, if it was aimed solely at you, I would've PMed it to you instead of posting it publically. I felt like there was some stuff that a number of people could benefit from reading, thus this thread.

All I ask is that in issues of addressing the church and paganism that it all won't be "ANTI." That they will at least put one sentence in each post addressing these issues that give the christian church 'the benefit of the doubt.'

I can't realistically require this. Discussions on the church and paganism have been at a minimum lately. To be honest, the last couple were started by you.

As well I think you should encourage threads like " A Messianic Put His Hat Off To Christians" to encourage other readers that although messianics disagree with much christian theology ( I would be the first to say this as I as well do not celebrate the christian holidays and celebrate the feasts and Shabatt) , that we still respect these facts :

1.) We respect the christian church for provoking the messianic Jewish community to jealousy unto salvation (Romans 11).

2.) We respect the blood, sweat, and tears many christians have shed for the truth of the gospel.

3.) Although our doctrines are different, we will not become sectarian. In other words we will not develop an almost cultic-like anti-dependency from the body of Messiah at large (including many christians). It almost reminds me of some christian denominations that are very seperated from the body (UPC,etc.).

I think that my thread would actually encourage and show the christians this statement so they don't feel threatened or seperated from messianics.

I have no problems with any of this, but I simply cannot force the rest of the forum to agree with you. The purpose of this forum is to discuss Messianic Judaism and related issues, and it seems that most of our forum regulars don't see this as being a major Messianic issue. You have to learn to let people disagree with you.

Justin,

Let me ask you this question.

As a moderator do you think the board lacks an overall balance on the question of paganism and christianity?

Like I said, most of the paganism discussion brought up lately has been by you. It really hasn't been much of an issue lately. I personally feel that this shouldn't be a place to hide and take shots at the beliefs of others, and have been discouraging such.