Adam incapable of Perfection; Jesus incapable of Sin?

Keath

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This is a summary theological statement that I would like to hear critique regarding. Thanks in advance.

Statement 1: Adam was incapable of eternal perfection; this is due to the nature of choice / free will; only God is ‘good’ and unless Adam was ‘one’ with God, he would ultimately make a choice that did not ‘hit the mark’.

Statement 1.1: Going a step further, if God had created 1,000 Adams at once, they would have all ‘sinned’ at some point (whether day 1 or year 1000). All ‘first Adams’, men of dust, would be incapable of eternal perfection. This is why Jesus is the Lamb who was slain ‘before’ the foundation of the earth Rev 13:8; due to this inevitability (but not pre-forced destination). Also, this is why all men can be held accountable against Adam’s sin, it reflected the sure outcome of all potential natural ‘Adams’.

Statement 2: Jesus, though with complete free will, was incapable of sinning; this is due to His ‘oneness’ with God. Unlike the first Adam, he not only is human, but also one with God. As such God/Jesus’s choices are one. By definition, God is perfect and good; therefore by definition all of Jesus’s choices are perfect and good. Reference John 17:21-23 for oneness of Father/Son.

Statement 2.1: Though not applicable or necessary, going a step further, if God incarnate 1,000 ‘second Adams’ (Christs), all would walk in perfection and righteousness due to their ‘oneness’ with the Father.
 

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Statement 2: Jesus, though with complete free will, was incapable of sinning; this is due to His ‘oneness’ with God. Unlike the first Adam, he not only is human, but also one with God. As such God/Jesus’s choices are one. By definition, God is perfect and good; therefore by definition all of Jesus’s choices are perfect and good. Reference John 17:21-23 for oneness of Father/Son.

Jesus was capable of sinning or else the whole thing was meaningless. He didn't sin because he is righteous and Holy on his own. His symbolic oneness with his Father is not the reason he did not sin.
 
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Keath

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Jesus was capable of sinning or else the whole thing was meaningless. He didn't sin because he is righteous and Holy on his own. His symbolic oneness with his Father is not the reason he did not sin.

My statement wording may not be sound. I agree that Jesus was capable of choosing disobedience; as he was fully human. However, being also fully God, choosing disobedience was not in his 'nature'.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Adam was incapable of eternal perfection; this is due to the nature of choice / free will; only God is ‘good’ and unless Adam was ‘one’ with God, he would ultimately make a choice that did not ‘hit the mark’.
Adam was created perfect.

His free will, his ability to choose to rebel, was necessarily a part of being perfect and
of the purpose, plan and salvation of YHWH - The Creator of All.

As YHWH says in His Word, "to show the wisdom(YHWH'S PERFECT WISDOM and Perfect Righteousness) throughout the eternities to all those in the heavenlies" (not exact quote; forgot location)...
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Statement 2.1: Though not applicable or necessary, going a step further, if God incarnate 1,000 ‘second Adams’ (Christs), all would walk in perfection and righteousness due to their ‘oneness’ with the Father.
Then sinners would not have been REDEEMED !

YHWH knows how to do things.

He wants people just as we are who freely trust and rely on HIM,
and become changed into HIS LIKENESS, following JESUS,
as HE SAYS.... HIS WAY....
with such characters in us as HE DELIGHTS IN !!!!!!!! (HE REJOICES OVER US WITH JOY AND DANCING !!!! )


THe plan and purpose and character of God as HE Does,
the free will of men REDEEMED by JESUS BLOOD
is
all necessary as done as God's Plan of Redemption for all time.
 
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Keath

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Adam was created perfect.

His free will, his ability to choose to rebel, was necessarily a part of being perfect and
of the purpose, plan and salvation of YHWH - The Creator of All.

As YHWH says in His Word, "to show the wisdom(YHWH'S PERFECT WISDOM and Perfect Righteousness) throughout the eternities to all those in the heavenlies" (not exact quote; forgot location)...

I'm not questioning the perfection of God's plan. I am primarily trying to further underscore another distinction between the first and second Adam. The first Adam was natural, had free will, and chose to sin (as would have any of us if we had been the first Adam). And the second Adam was both natural and of God, had free will, and chose to be obedient as was His nature.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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The Son's oneness with the Father is more than symbolic; they both are aspects of YHWH who is the only God, only One, only Savior - Isaiah 45:21-23
And from Jesus words, we believers immersed in Him
are or are becoming now today
one with Jesus and one with the Father as HIS WORD says repeatedly= of the ekklesia.

As always was "echad", so also in NT "echad" = also "in union with Jesus every day"...(and with all the others in Jesus as well) ...
 
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Keath

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And from Jesus words, we believers immersed in Him
are or are becoming now today
one with Jesus and one with the Father as HIS WORD says repeatedly= of the ekklesia.

As always was "echad", so also in NT "echad" = also "in union with Jesus every day"...(and with all the others in Jesus as well) ...

Scripture is clear that we are at least becoming one with the Son as he is one with the Father. This was Jesus's desire and prayer. In the new heaven and earth, the home of righteousness, we will certainly at last fully achieve that oneness. And like Jesus the 'first', we too, will at last be creatures that both are fully of free will and fully obedient, as Christ was; freely given obedience will at last be our nature as it was Christ's, who was one with the Father from the start; unlike Adam.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Scripture is clear that we are at least becoming one with the Son as he is one with the Father. This was Jesus's desire and prayer. In the new heaven and earth, the home of righteousness, we will certainly at last fully achieve that oneness. And like Jesus the 'first', we too, will at last be creatures that both are fully of free will and fully obedient, as Christ was; freely given obedience will at last be our nature as it was Christ's, who was one with the Father from the start; unlike Adam.
See in the New Testament assemblies how often this was already the testimony of God's Word - they (and we) did not have to wait
until going to the next life,
and should not wait to be obedient to Jesus and to God's Word.
 
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Keath

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See in the New Testament assemblies how often this was already the testimony of God's Word - they (and we) did not have to wait
until going to the next life,
and should not wait to be obedient to Jesus and to God's Word.
I Cor 13 - we see in glass dimly; perfect oneness does not exist yet; doesn't mean we don't work for it; and doesn't me we don't symbolically experience it; but perfection has not been fully realized.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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I Cor 13 - we see in glass dimly; perfect oneness does not exist yet; doesn't mean we don't work for it; and doesn't me we don't symbolically experience it; but perfection has not been fully realized.
Start looking in Scripture first, (for hours, days, weeks, or months even)
for such people old and new testament as
verified by God/ Jesus/ the Apostles and disciples.

It is not expected, because so few follow Jesus today.

But is is accomplished as YHWH accomplishes this in the NT and in the disciples who believe(d) on His Word.
 
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Greg J.

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Statement 1: Adam was incapable of eternal perfection; this is due to the nature of choice / free will; only God is ‘good’ and unless Adam was ‘one’ with God, he would ultimately make a choice that did not ‘hit the mark’.
Adam was capable of eternal moral perfection. Most people look at themselves and see how hard it is to not sin, but Adam's ability to always choose right was not hindered by any existing sin. He did something very similar to what Satan did in knowing God face-to-face and what was morally right, but nurtured an idea that was contrary to God's (only) command.
Statement 1.1: Going a step further, if God had created 1,000 Adams at once, they would have all ‘sinned’ at some point (whether day 1 or year 1000). All ‘first Adams’, men of dust, would be incapable of eternal perfection. This is why Jesus is the Lamb who was slain ‘before’ the foundation of the earth Rev 13:8; due to this inevitability (but not pre-forced destination). Also, this is why all men can be held accountable against Adam’s sin, it reflected the sure outcome of all potential natural ‘Adams’.
It appears you are trying to understand free will in terms of statistical probabilities, but I doubt it can be done legitimately. It's like trying to assign a number to love. It doesn't have a nature for which that kind of quantification can be done. Each Adam was made with a nature that had 100% chance of always choosing right "unless he chose" to reject God.
Statement 2: Jesus, though with complete free will, was incapable of sinning; this is due to His ‘oneness’ with God. Unlike the first Adam, he not only is human, but also one with God. As such God/Jesus’s choices are one. By definition, God is perfect and good; therefore by definition all of Jesus’s choices are perfect and good. Reference John 17:21-23 for oneness of Father/Son.
As was stated, Jesus was fully capable of sinning. There is no sense in which he was incapable of sinning. God, the Father is capable of sinning, too, but he never will. To suggest otherwise is to say God has less free will than a human. Our free will is only twisted/confused because of sin. Our human nature is a kind of projection of his attributes, but we can't understand his nature just by observing and experiencing our sin-tainted nature.
Statement 2.1: Though not applicable or necessary, going a step further, if God incarnate 1,000 ‘second Adams’ (Christs), all would walk in perfection and righteousness due to their ‘oneness’ with the Father.
It appears you wonder if Jesus had an easier time choosing to not sin than Adam, but I think it is beyond human ability to separate moral predisposition from the other attributes (e.g., ease of self-discipline) that influence one's moral choices. Each Adam and each Jesus had the same moral state, but they were different people. Cain killed Abel, but Abel didn't try to kill Cain. It is convenient to say that God's nature in Jesus made it easier for him to not sin, but what is the evidence of that? And if it were true, why would it matter? God does nothing wrong when he makes people differently; it's not like he is expressing immoral favoritism (Romans 2:11).

But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ”Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? (Romans 9:20-21, 1984 NIV)
 
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Keath

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Start looking in Scripture first, (for hours, days, weeks, or months even)
for such people old and new testament as
verified by God/ Jesus/ the Apostles and disciples.

It is not expected, because so few follow Jesus today.

But is is accomplished as YHWH accomplishes this in the NT and in the disciples who believe(d) on His Word.
Ps 19:12 Who can understand his errors?
Cleanse me from secret faults.
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things,
And desperately wicked;
Who can know it?
 
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Keath

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QUOTE=]Ps 19:12 Who can understand his errors?
Cleanse me from secret faults.
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things,
And desperately wicked;
Who can know it?
[/QUOTE

Who wants to know ?
Anyone ?
There are many followers of Christ; many people who love him; many people who seek to know him and do his will; who pray Lord search me and cleanse me.
 
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Keath

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Adam was capable of eternal moral perfection.
What is your basis for this statement? If this is true, why not simply make another Adam and Eve, unless the same outcome was inevitable? Mark 10:18 – “..No one is good but One, that is, God.”

Most people look at themselves and see how hard it is to not sin, but Adam's ability to always choose right was not hindered by any existing sin.
Yes, but it was hindered by the combination of having true choice, being a natural man (but not a sinful natural man), but not having perfect oneness with God. If another natural man (vs Adam) could have remained morally perfect (if given the opportunity to exist without original sin), then that person could argue against the need for Christ for himself. Adam must not just be the source of original sin; he must be the representative case of every natural man without original sin. Jesus is thus necessary because he is the God-man; Jesus combines original sinlessness, true choice, and natural obedience because of His virgin birth, humanity, and oneness with God. Man had to ultimately choose oneness with God (after Christ opened the way); Christ already was pre-existent and had oneness with God, His choice was to humble himself as a man, but he did not choose to forfeit his natural obedience that existed through oneness within Yahweh.

As was stated, Jesus was fully capable of sinning. There is no sense in which he was incapable of sinning.
Because of His freewill he was fully capable of sinning; I should not have used the term ‘incapable’; however, because of His divine nature, His nature was to always naturally obey.

God, the Father is capable of sinning, too, but he never will. To suggest otherwise is to say God has less free will than a human.
I think this is a false statement. To sin is to miss the mark with God, to break His commands, act contrary to love; God by definition is sinless, perfect, pure, love, holy, faultless, good. It is impossible for Him to be contrary to that; He is the source. You would have a very difficult time making a theological argument that God is capable of sin; if He is the guideline, then by definition every choice He makes is free, and every choice He makes is pure and right.

It is convenient to say that God's nature in Jesus made it easier for him to not sin, but what is the evidence of that? And if it were true, why would it matter? God does nothing wrong when he makes people differently; it's not like he is expressing immoral favoritism (Romans 2:11).
One key point I am trying to affirm is the complete dependence of man upon God; and the utter need for Jesus to be more than a created being; He had to share in the divine nature of Yahweh (to achieve perfection) as only Yahweh can save (Isaiah 45:21-23); but as well he had to fully share in the natural nature of man (in order to redeem that which was lost). I am definitely not saying that Jesus did not suffer in obedience, and suffer more than any man, because His obedience was perfect.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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What is your basis for this statement? If this is true, why not simply make another Adam and Eve, unless the same outcome was inevitable?
What kind of parent throws their baby away
if it is not the right sex or color or 'healthy' ? and just goes and makes another one ?
 
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Keath

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Adam was capable of eternal moral perfection.
One other comment on this; if man without original sin was capable of eternal moral perfection, why then is Jesus called the Lamb who was slain 'before' the foundation of the earth? (Rev 13:8) Was God just playing it safe; this argument is faulty. And how is Jesus the Lamb who is slain prior to creation? Is it by the internal act within Yahweh of the Son determining by His will, I will humble myself in obedience as a man to redeem what natural man is incapable of retaining within his natural self? And if this internal choice equated to being 'slain' before the foundation of the earth, then that initial choice of obedience had to be a prototype of every subsequent choice of obedience the God-man, the incarnate Christ would make.

And thus my primary statement, natural man is incapable of moral perfection (even without original sin); and the God-man Jesus's nature was naturally to obedience.
 
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Sorry my thoughts aren't entirely cohesive. There's too many issues involved in these topics for me to condense my thoughts in a reasonable amount of time. (More specific questions make it easier.)
What is your basis for this statement? If this is true, why not simply make another Adam and Eve, unless the same outcome was inevitable? Mark 10:18 – “..No one is good but One, that is, God.”
You seem to be struggling with the nature of free will. Free will means the person gets to decide. When free will is from God, it is an untwisted "he just gets to decide" and he is responsible for his choice and the consequences. When a person is tainted with sin, then he has a twisted free will.

God designed Adam to be in union with Himself, which means Adam was designed for eternal perfection. Humans were not designed to have the knowledge of good and evil and hence not designed to be able to handle sin. Scripture testifies that humans are powerless against sin—that's why we need a Savior.
Yes, but it was hindered by the combination of having true choice, being a natural man (but not a sinful natural man), but not having perfect oneness with God. If another natural man (vs Adam) could have remained morally perfect (if given the opportunity to exist without original sin), then that person could argue against the need for Christ for himself. Adam must not just be the source of original sin; he must be the representative case of every natural man without original sin. Jesus is thus necessary because he is the God-man; Jesus combines original sinlessness, true choice, and natural obedience because of His virgin birth, humanity, and oneness with God. Man had to ultimately choose oneness with God (after Christ opened the way); Christ already was pre-existent and had oneness with God, His choice was to humble himself as a man, but he did not choose to forfeit his natural obedience that existed through oneness within Yahweh.
Nothing hindered Adam's free will, although he did acquire an increased knowledge of disobedience (from the snake). But God equipped him to deal with that when he commanded Adam to not eat from the tree. Adam chose to do a terrible evil (for reasons Scripture does not go into detail about), as we do every time we choose to sin.
Because of His freewill he was fully capable of sinning; I should not have used the term ‘incapable’; however, because of His divine nature, His nature was to always naturally obey.
What you have discovered is what free will was like for Adam before he sinned, except that it was much harder on Jesus, because his temptations were many, which can be lumped into "opportunities to relieve himself of pain." Adam didn't have the incentive to sin to stop pain. Both Jesus and Adam had the advantage we don't of a perfect relationship with the Father. On earth Jesus lived as a human his whole life; his divine nature did not show up on any occasion until after he died. He set us an example for us to follow of living in obedience to the Holy Spirit with the Holy Spirit's help. Everything Jesus did we have the potential to do as well. Presumably it is much harder for us because we are twisted from sin, but that's not something God did to us. It's the result of our ancestors' choices AND is still a choice for us, and yet we still choose to sin. And YET, God still offers us the opportunity to do everything Jesus did and even greater things, because it is not us doing them, but God doing them through us.
I think this is a false statement. To sin is to miss the mark with God, to break His commands, act contrary to love; God by definition is sinless, perfect, pure, love, holy, faultless, good. It is impossible for Him to be contrary to that; He is the source. You would have a very difficult time making a theological argument that God is capable of sin; if He is the guideline, then by definition every choice He makes is free, and every choice He makes is pure and right.
Almost everyone seems to stumble over the conflicts that arise from mixing facts from God's perspective with facts from a human perspective. It is a part of growing in our knowledge of God and ourselves. Just because God knew everything that would ever happen does not mean that any given event is what he wanted. His foreknowledge is absolutely not indicative of what he chooses to do. For example, God has never and will never judge someone for something they have yet to do. It is a moral imperative (proven by his commands) that He interact with us according to the flow of time we are in, but that doesn't tell us his power is limited to just that.

Scripture's perspective includes the knowledge that God will never sin, but that doesn't have anything to do with his capabilities. Is it even possible for a being without full free will to create a being with full free will? To suggest that God doesn't have full free will to choose good or evil is to assert that something more powerful than he is constraining him. It isn't that difficult to grasp: God will never choose to do evil, but it's not because he lacks the ability.
One key point I am trying to affirm is the complete dependence of man upon God; and the utter need for Jesus to be more than a created being; He had to share in the divine nature of Yahweh (to achieve perfection) as only Yahweh can save (Isaiah 45:21-23); but as well he had to fully share in the natural nature of man (in order to redeem that which was lost). I am definitely not saying that Jesus did not suffer in obedience, and suffer more than any man, because His obedience was perfect.
We are certainly completely dependent upon God. But Jesus' capabilities were (1) just like ours, except that (2) he was not tainted with sin and therefore had all the advantages of his unity with the Holy Spirit his whole life (which are available to us, although not from birth). His calling presumably empowered him because he knew what the Father wanted him to do, which is also available to us.
 
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