Adam & Eve

I have stepped into an arena that I am not qualified to step into I guess, and my notions may be elementary/outdated.

I do believe in evolution in a certain light. I just dont believe that humans came from a different creature.

Then again, I dont think God created in matters of days. Those days may have been years/decades and there was a progression of life as it was created. With that in mind, what is your opinion then? How was it orchestrated? By whom/what?

Thanks for the sites. I will finish watching/reading later.

Simply, I believe we have a Creator. Just my belief. I believe because I see/feel his presence in my life and in the world.

Please tell me your opinion of things. If you've layed it out already on this thread previsously, then I will come across it as I read through.

Thanks!!

byHISway said:

I have stepped into an arena that I am not qualified to step into I guess, and my notions may be elementary/outdated.

I do believe in evolution in a certain light. I just dont believe that humans came from a different creature.

Then again, I dont think God created in days. Those days may have been years/decades and there was a progression of life as it was created. With that in mind, what is your opinion then? How was it orhestrated? By whom/what?

Thanks for the sites. I will finish watching/reading later.

Simply, I believe we have a Creator. Just my belief. I believe because I see/feel his presence in my life and in the world.

Please tell my your opinion of things. If you've layed it out already on this thread previsously, then I will come across it as I read through.

Thanks!!

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Could you give a reason that you dont think the human beings could have evolved from non human ancestors?

If its a case of cant be because of what the bible says, then there is nothing to discuss.

Hespera said:

Could you give a reason that you dont think the human beings could have evolved from non human ancestors?

If its a case of cant be because of what the bible says, then there is nothing to discuss.

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I would think it allows as much discussion as your own opionions, based on literature you read, no?

Outside of the Bible, I work in nature and on human bodies. It amazes me how complicated and intricate everything is. Merely on these reasons, I believe what I do.

byHISway said:

I would think it allows as much discussion as your own opionions, based on literature you read, no?

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Well, I prefer to talk in terms of data rather than opinion. Though I guess that was an opinion about whether there is anything to discuss! It does seem like an apples and oranges thing to talk data vs faith.

Anyway, is there a reason other than bible to think that people could not have evolved from non human ancestors?

I wonder what you mean by "worK in nature and on human bodies"? Care to elaborate a bit?

You are right about being impressed by the complexity of things. I've spent a lot of hours in anatomy and physiology classes, as well as other natural science classes. The more you know the more complex it gets!

GuidanceNeeded said:

I read your last posting yesterday and literally sat last night trying to remember if I made a "conscious" choice to believe the Bible is the word of God. As I said I don't believe it was a conscious choice. So to me I suppose I have always believed the Bible was the word of God. When I started reading the Bible (KJV) I don't think I picked it up and said "ok these are Gods words". Again this may be a case of not being able to explain what I am trying to say.

Maybe it was Sunday school and I just don't recall. Regardless though, whether it was a conscious choice or not or how I came to that conclusion, its how I read it now and thats what is important to me.

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I get what you're saying, and I think many people are probably in the same boat. They were raised to believe in the bible. This doesn't necessarily mean it was shoved down their throats... it just means they were told about the bible being the word of god.

I understand that. I'm not a fan of it, but I understand it. What I don't quite understand is how someone makes the leap from thinking the bible is the word of god, to thinking that the bible must be interpretted literally. That's what I'm wondering about your experience... I'm curious when you took that next step. As kids, we really don't consider this much... but as we get older, we start to make more reasoned decisions about our interpretations. In your case, you seem to have made the decision that everything in the bible happened exactly as it is written.

I just wondering how you arrived at that conclusion, specifically.

GuidanceNeeded said:

I guess that is where we differ. I do not question the Bible for I believe I would be questioning God. Now I do at times (a lot of times) have questions about what I am reading. If my question cannot be answered, then I will take it for what it says and not give a second thought to it.

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Ok, that makes sense... but please understand that I am not saying you should question god or the bible. I'm simply wondering if you have ever questioned your own understanding of the bible. It's like when you think about the different meanings or lessons that jesus may have intended when he told a parable. It's not questioning the story, it's just contemplating its meaning.

Does that make sense?

GuidanceNeeded said:

If I am considered closed minded for not believing in something that contradicts the Bible, then so be it. I believe the word of God, not the word of man

I've read through evolution, to me it contradicts the Bible. In all honesty I believe it is a sin to believe in evolution.

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First, I want to make sure you understand that I am not lumping you in with the type of people I described. I don't know you well enough to say either way, but I'd like to think that you're probably a good-natured person and this is just your way of understanding your faith.

That said, the "closed-mindedness" that I mentioned simply refers to anyone (religious or not) who excludes any possibilities in their entirety just because they think it might contradict their existing understanding of something. For example, a scientist could be closed-minded if they exlude or ignore evidence just because it doesn't support their own existing conclusions.

Here's a simple test that you can ask yourself to see if you are closed-minded:

"Is it possible that Genesis 1 was not a literal account of the creation, but rather a way for god to explain the origin of the universe to humans who, at the time, had no way of comphrehending that massive complexity that may have been at work in the creation?"

Again, I'm only asking if it's possible. Let's say, as a parent, your child asks you about gravity. Now, if your child is young, there is probably no way they could understand the specifics of gravity and how it works... so, as a parent, you tell your child that gravity is what holds everything on the earth's surface. It's not the full explanation, but it is rough representation of the truth, tailored for young ears who can not yet understand it fully.

Is it possible that god was doing the same for his children when he inspired the person who wrote Genesis 1?

GuidanceNeeded said:

You asked me why I thought the Bible was the Word of God. I believe those scriptures, tell us the Bible is the Word of God.

Did Jesus use parables and metaphors? Sure He did. But I do agree with AV on the point just because Jesus used a parable to get His point across, does that mean the parable He used wasn't true? No of course not.

Oh yes the obvious metaphors, just like the one where Jesus said He is a door, do I believe He became a door? NO

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Ok, and this is what I explored in what I just wrote. If jesus was capable of using metaphors and parables... doesn't it follow that god would have been equally-capable of the same?

GuidanceNeeded said:

So what you are saying is, if a scripture goes against science, then that scripture must not be taken literally? How about trying to change it to if science goes against the Bible, then someone made an error with science?

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I'm not necessarily saying that. Certainly, many things in science are constantly questioned and may change based on new information or understandings. However, science simply gives us answers based on our observations of the universe around us. I don't think those observations should be discounted just because they seem to disagree with scripture.

Think about this... do you think that god would have made everything a certain way, and created man with the capability of observing and understanding it, knowing that our observations and understandings would contradict our understanding of him and what he did?

Personally, I don't think that's a fair assessment of any omnipotent and benevolent being.

GuidanceNeeded said:

When you read the scriptures do you sit and think, ok does this agree with what I believe? Or "oh this is just so impossible to believe, so I am just not going to take it literally?"

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Absolutely not! When I was still studying the bible and exploring my faith, I read scripture and thought "what is the lesson here", "what is this trying to teach me", or "what did he mean by this".

However, as I previously explained, I was never taught that the bible should be taken literally. It was simply somthing that never entered into the equation. To me, the bible was always presented as lessons and stories from god to man, given to provide guidance on how to live a good life and how to be a good person.

GuidanceNeeded said:

Let me ask you: What has believing in evolution done for you, besides having the capability of arguing that evolution is true and the Bible shouldn't be taken literally?

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First, agreeing with the Theory of Evolution has very little to do with my argument about interpretting the bible. My arguments are based solely on logic and reasoning... two things that I love to use, and have served me well in understanding the world around me.

Now, that said, agreeing with the Theory of Evolution hasn't "done" anything "for me"... However, studying that Theory, and other theories in the scientific community has helped me understand much more about the world around me. That may not seem like much, but I love to learn new things and develop my own understanding of how things work.

Hespera said:

If its a case of cant be because of what the bible says, then there is nothing to discuss.

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Interesting --- interesting indeed.

AV1611VET said:

The Holy Spirit can reveal the deep things of God in a passage.In my own personal Bible study one day, I came across this passage [again]:That passage to me seems almost out of place, until you study bdellium, and learn that frankinsense and myrrh are made from it.

Gold, frankinsense and myrrh --- get it?

It's saying that Jesus is there.

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That's cool

I don't think appealing to the ignorance (by comparison) of the people back then is an effective way of making a point; especially when comparing ourselves to an omniscient God.

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No I am not appealing to the ignorance of people in the past, I am pointing to the dangers of us being blinkered by our 21st century perspective, and thinking an interpretation is absurd because it contradicts what we now know from science, when this plain meaning of the text made perfect sense to the people it was written to. I think there are two big problems with this approach, firstly it does not respect the word of God enough to look at what it is actually saying, and secondly it always seems to slip into a double standards of insisting the geocentric passages can't possibly be literal because we know better from science, while with evolution, science cannot possibly be right because you interpret Genesis literally.

I really like the honest integrity of how the church originally dealt with geocentric passages when science showed the earth went round the sun, (after of course, an initial hiccup of course of Galileo being dragged before the Inquisition and Luther calling Copernicus a fool). But when the science was established, they had to go back to scripture and find a better way to understand passages whose literal meaning had never been questioned before. They didn't try to claim the plain meaning was actually completely different, but realised God was speaking to people in their own terms, in terms they understood. Genesis should be even easier for the church to deal with, because unlike the geocentric passages, there always have been scripture scholars who read the passage and realised from the text it was never meant to be interpreted literally. Turns out they were right.

byHISway said:

Outside of the Bible, I work in nature and on human bodies. It amazes me how complicated and intricate everything is. Merely on these reasons, I believe what I do.

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well, bacteria are very complicated as well, yet wesee them evolve significantly in a short time. Fruit flies are more complicated still, yet we see them evolve within one of our lifetimes. Doesn't it stand to reason that given more time something as complicated as a vertebrate could evolve significantly?

Keep in mind that we have apparently been diverging from other extant great apes for 4-8 million years.

AV1611VET said:

Interesting --- interesting indeed.

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well, your saying......... case closed.. so why do you say more after that?

Assyrian said:

Ah so the Holy Spirit can reveal the metaphorical meaning of scriptures. I like that. Very few Creationists realise this.

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The poetic meanings and nuances of a word usually add insight and light to the particulae use of a word. One cannot take that to an extereme, and try to wave away what is actually being said. That is doing violence to the text.

Was a time when the earth not moving made perfect sense. People believed the earth was fixed at the center of the universe.

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It is. Far as I can tell. So? At the moment we see physical movement, being in this physical only state, it has to work that way. Can you prove to me that the earth moved in creation week? I notice that the spirit of God moved, and hovered. Not sure about the earth. Not sure it will orbit in the new heaven state either. Maybe the universe will move around us? Or maybe God will take the whole planet on a cruise around the universe? Since the creator is moving here forever, it is the center. No doubt. Maybe the ancients actually know more than you. Imagine that. You do what? You look at the physical temporal state we are in, and the motions here, and assume that it is all there will be or was. Same old mistake. Better to just say you don't know.

But the meaning of the verse and word 'moved' I already expounded upon. Do you think that the ancients were also dumb enough to think that a man was fixed to the earth, and didn't move!? No. That is being silly, and not wanting to get what is being conveyed.

That is what they thought the passage obviously meant. It does not make sense any more because we know the earth rotates and orbits the sun.

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I don't believe you, and already showed that it is impossible for that to be the case. Why harp on an obvious misunderstanding of the verse, as if it supports your same state religion?

Of course the earth now orbits around the sun. But did it before the flood? How would we know? I am not sure. No more than I am sure that the present motions of a physical only universe will continue as is when this universe we know is forever no more!

But neither does six day creationism make sense any more. Yet you chose to stick to the dead words of literal interpretation instead looking to the Holy Spirit for a deeper meaning? Why rely on the Holy Spirit to teach you the meaning of fixed earth passages, but rely on you own idea of what makes sense for Genesis?

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Creation by God in a week makes perfect sense. To look to the so called spirit for a deeper meaning, that makes God an imbecile, and a liar is a foolish endeavor.

byHISway said:

I have stepped into an arena that I am not qualified to step into I guess, and my notions may be elementary/outdated.

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Kudos to you for having the humility and intellectual honesty to admit that to us and most importantly to yourself. It's unfortunately a very rare occurance these days to see those two admirable traits among creationists. I must admit I can't think of previous instances, despite having been on these boards for years.

byHISway said:

I do believe in evolution in a certain light. I just dont believe that humans came from a different creature.

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That's fair enough. But if you one day have the time and curiosity to hear more about the evidence that points to that conclusion, there are many knowledgable people here who will be happy to help. But be prepared that much work and reading will be involved if you want to understand the evidence. Science doesn't offer the simplistic and easy to grasp answers that religions do. Reality isn't as simple as most of us would like.

byHISway said:

Then again, I dont think God created in matters of days. Those days may have been years/decades and there was a progression of life as it was created. With that in mind, what is your opinion then? How was it orchestrated? By whom/what?

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I don't know. The only belief I hold regarding this question is that my lack of knowledge is shared by every single person on this planet. I'm simply among the minority who admits ignorance about this question where everyone is ignorant, and I consider the people who claim to know the answer to such an unknowable question to be lacking in humility, failing to realize their own limits as human beings.

byHISway said:

Thanks for the sites. I will finish watching/reading later.

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Glad to hear it.

byHISway said:

Simply, I believe we have a Creator. Just my belief. I believe because I see/feel his presence in my life and in the world.

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That is interesting. Not having been brought up to believe in such things I'll probably never come to truly understand such religious feelings and biases. The psychological aspect fascinates me though, and I'm sure I'll look more into it at some point in the future.

Peter

byHISway said:

I have stepped into an arena that I am not qualified to step into I guess, and my notions may be elementary/outdated.

plindboe said:

Kudos to you for having the humility and intellectual honesty to admit that to us and most importantly to yourself. It's unfortunately a very rare occurance these days to see those two admirable traits among creationists. I must admit I can't think of previous instances, despite having been on these boards for years.

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Hey --- c'mon! I've been saying this for years!

--- How's come I don't get any kudos?

AV1611VET said:

Hey --- c'mon! I've been saying this for years!

--- How's come I don't get any kudos?

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"God did it - Case closed" & "Science can take a hike" come to mind. Unless you've redefined the meaning of the word "humility."

AV1611VET said:

Hey --- c'mon! I've been saying this for years!

--- How's come I don't get any kudos?

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uh..... no humility?

AV1611VET said:

Hey --- c'mon! I've been saying this for years!

--- How's come I don't get any kudos?

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AV1611VET said:

reality can take a hike.

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That's why.

[serious];52121527 said:

That's why.

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:/ --- Oh. I knew there was a catch somewhere.

AV1611VET said:

:/ --- Oh. I knew there was a catch somewhere.

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yup ill considered words generally do have a catch sooner or later

dad said:

No. It is up to the spirit to reveal it to us. We need to get the spirit of the word, the letter kills. Behind the appearances of dead words, is a vibrant, living, hot contact with another world, and God, and the future and the past.

If it means what it means...it means what it means. If it merely seems to mean what some would prefer it to mean, it is better to stick with what it obviously means. The idea that neither us nor the earth actually moves physically is absurd. But the time of creation is fact.

If all else fails ask for God's help to get it.

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If A = A, then A = A. That's a meaningless and useless statement. It seems that we've reached the real conclusion of this exercise: A word can have many meanings and which one you choose depends on your prior beliefs and convictions. Proof of this is the many interpretations of the Bible even within Christianity, within Christian sects, and even within Churches. Everyone thinks they know the true meaning and everyone else is wrong.

The funny thing is that what each person wishes to gain from the pages of the Bible says more about the individual reader than of God or even the original writers.

AV1611VET said:

If it turned you into a Taoist, someone else into a Buddhist, someone else into an Agnostic, and someone else into an Atheist --- I want no part of it.

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You have a very unique personality, AV. I have met very few people so unwilling to even consider other possibilities. I think this is my greatest fear when it comes to religious indoctrination such as the one you've obviously received. "My belief indicates that I'm right." "What can be perceived, measured, and examined is wrong if a book tells me so." "If opening my mind means I will no longer believe what I currently do, then I'll stay close-minded." Do you see those qualities as virtues that everyone should have?

GuidanceNeeded said:

I guess that is where we differ. I do not question the Bible for I believe I would be questioning God. Now I do at times (a lot of times) have questions about what I am reading. If my question cannot be answered, then I will take it for what it says and not give a second thought to it.

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This brings back memories of my loss of faith and I have a feeling a lot of you have or may be going through something similar.

Let me tell you a little boring story of my deconversion. It started when I learned more and more of our universe. The things I saw, experienced, and knew to be true didn't match up with what the Bible said was supposed to be true. I started having questions and although deep in my mind I was starting to have doubts about the veracity of the Bible, I repressed them. Repressed them to the point of depression, anxiety, anger, etc.

One morning, I woke up exhausted after hours of sleep. I had been dreaming that I had gone to hell for my blasphemy and was tormented forever. That was it. I was done lying to myself and to god. If he existed, I thought, he already knows I have doubts and questions. In fact, he created me this way to be inquisitive, questioning, and skeptic. So, why try to hide my feelings from someone who can see right through me?

I started questioning, exploring, visited numerous churches and temples. First, I stayed close to my Catholic roots in Pentecostals. I attended Lutheran, Nondenominational, Southern Baptist, and Church of Christ churches. I stayed in each about 5 to 9 months, except for the Nondenominational. I stayed there for about a year and a half.
Everyone treated me stupendously and they NEVER ONCE pressured me into getting saved or anything even though they knew I was losing faith. Beautiful people and wonderful times.

During all this, I prayed, cried, prayed, and begged for a sign from god. Nothing ever came. Not so much as a warm feeling or nice thought. Nothing. Christianity had nothing for me. I called myself agnostic.

I then started expanding to Baha'i, Jewish, and Buddhist temples in Dallas. Nothing. Buddhist was nice on the meditative aspect but nothing I felt was transcendental. I called myself atheist.

After much studying, reading, reread the Bible a second time (first time was in Catechism for my First Communion,) I started exploring religions in a more open way. I then called myself Agnostic Atheist Humanist.

To this day, I don't regret my decision. I was made happier as my cognitive dissonance, from which I obviously suffered, dissipated. I realized how important and beautiful life, the universe and all within it was. Everything made much more sense and being able to question everything (including science and religion) has only increased my knowledge and understanding of the universe.

Don't be afraid to be open about your questions and doubts. Your god already knows how you feel and you can't deceive him. If he's wise, just, and loving, he'll understand how and why you've arrived at that point. Be true to your god and to yourself.