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Adam & Eve: Man & Women

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by joshua 1 9, Oct 5, 2019.

  1. joshua 1 9

    joshua 1 9 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    In Genesis 2:18 we read: "It is not good for the man to be alone". No one seems to realize how deep this goes. In Genesis 1:26 God said: "Let us make man (Adam) in Our Image. Adam here is plural, this represents mankind. Adam & Eve together reveal God's Image and Glory. Eve is the helper (ezer) meaning defender, ally & protector. In the same way that God is the helper for man. As Adam and Eve unite together to become one, mankind is to unite together and become one with God. Together they reveal God's Image and Glory.

    The husband is to defend and protect his wife & the wife is to defend and protect her husband. They are to become an ally for each other. They are to be united together as one, with one purpose and intent. If they can not do that, then they should not get married because they would be defeating God plan and purpose for them to be united together as one.

    God is infinite, so this is just a start, a beginning of understanding - God's purpose and intent when He made Adam and Eve. His plan was for them to cleave or be united together so: "they become one flesh".

    If a wife can not defend & protect her husband. If the husband can not or does not defend and protect his wife, then they are not one (ally). A house divided can not stand. A man and a women that is not united does not represent God to bring Him Honor and Glory.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2019
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  2. grasping the after wind

    grasping the after wind That's grasping after the wind

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    I don't see anything controversial in what you posted.
     
  3. joshua 1 9

    joshua 1 9 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I got this from Dr. Frank T Seekins. His books are expansive but very interesting as he stresses that we learn the ancient Hebrew Language.
     
  4. bekkilyn

    bekkilyn Contemplative Christian Supporter

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    It's considered controversial because some people on the forum freak out if the wife is anything other than a "biblical" submissive household servant and baby-making bed slave because (while ignoring context in the the original languages) that's her "Godly role".

    But yes, I agree, there is nothing in the OP that *should* be controversial.
     
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  5. St_Worm2

    St_Worm2 Simul Justus et Peccator Supporter

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    Hi Joshua, I just looked through 30+ resources (lexicons, word study and commentaries) concerning עֵזֶר / ʿezer / help meet / helper. One of the definitions that Seekins assigns to עֵזֶר as man's "ally" is typical, but none of the resources further define עֵזֶר (in the context of Genesis 2:18) as you say Seekins does, as either man's "defender" or "protector". I assume that this is true because the immediate context of a word plays such an important role in how Hebrew words are defined, and there is no sense of man's "help meet" being his "protector" and/or "defender" in Genesis 2.

    Are his books/teachings available for viewing online by any chance? If not, does he explain why he chose to define עֵזֶר in Genesis 2:18 in this manner?

    Thanks!

    --David
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2019
  6. joshua 1 9

    joshua 1 9 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I was engaged to women once. One day there was a neighbor women that was upset with me over something that had to do with my son. The next thing I know is that my fiance is taking the side of the neighbor women against me. I broke off the engagement. I need a wife that is for me and not so quick to team up with another women against me.

    The issue with my wife now is that she is very close to her family. Sometimes she gets caught in a conflict between them and me. At that point she becomes neutral. She is loyal to them, but also we are to leave our family and cleave to our husband or wife.

    He translates 2:18 "I will make him an EZER (defender, ally, protector) who stands face to face with him". Then he goes on to say: "16 of the 21 times EZER is used in the Bible it is about God - who is our HELP - DEFENDER, PROTECTOR, SAVIOR in trouble, but never our servant". "The Bible makes it clear that God made ADAM (Mankind) as male and female". "What does it look like when men and women are united to reveal God's Image and Glory?" "What does it look like when God's Presence is missing?"

    In the definition for ALLY: Strong person Ayin - Zyin Strong (5797) OR See the enemy Ayn eye see, Zar stranger enemy (s 2114) (5628 from 5826) "Used to describe a military ally and from a word for surrounding and protecting. EZER ios used for allies, for God, who is our help, for Eve, who was to be the help (ally) of Adam.

    As you know the tree letters are Ayin for Eye to see, know, experience. Zayin for Weapon. Reysh for person, head, highest. We see this exact word 4 times. Twice in referance to Eve. Then David uses this word for a warrior: "You once spoke in a vision, to Your godly ones You said, “I have bestowed help on a warrior; I have exalted one chosen from the people." (Psalm89:19) Then Daniel says: "Now when they fall, they will be granted a little help, but many will join them insincerely. (Daniel 11:34) Daniel here gives us almost a perfect definition of marriage today with "insincere" or the KJV "flatteries".

    From here we go to strongs to see the variations where an additional letter is added to the word. I like to deal with the root of a word. It could reveal something to look at the other variations of this word.

    The focus of this book is men, women and fire. He talks the most about fire. How fire can purify gold and silver. Or how at the end of this age fire will destroy the world.

    He does have a definition for Ezer: Ally in his other book if you want to know that also then let me know and I will type it in.
     
  7. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    Ahh---then this is personal, not a biblical point of view then. Thought so. As one poster pointed out, help meet does not translate to protector. For one thing, Adam had nothing to protect Eve from, as there were no dangerous animals or any such thing, besides, he didn't do a very good job as the serpent still got his ideas into her head. I will tell you this:
    My husband had the very same thinking that you do---at first. I refused to defend his side when he was in the wrong. He felt, right or wrong, I was his wife and I had a duty to be on his side! Wrong! I have a duty to God to be on the side of truth---period. I have a duty to my husband to love him, whether he is right or wrong, but not to be on the side of falsehoods, lies, or anything that in any way does not represent the Lord. This happened several times with many battles. He even pushed me and threatened to beat me up---I ran up to him, looked him square in the eye and said "You, and who else?!" I was ready for war by this time! He stood there staring at me and all of a sudden he just broke out laughing--"If you ain't the toughest woman I've ever met!" War was over, he hugged me and said "Thank you, sometimes I need to have my butt kicked." When he was wrong I would not defend him, period. As long as the issue involved was an important one. If I am wrong I did not expect him to stand by my side but help me to see the truth. That is what a help meet does. My husband and I rarely quarreled after that last confrontation. He learned to think before he took a stand at to what is truth and he surprised me several times by being quiet for a while before he made up his mind---and he made sure he sided with God first! For then he would not have to fight me, also!
    A woman is to leave her father and mother and be one with her husband. But no matter what the situation is, she must be on the side of God first and foremost. If the family happen to be right, she has a moral obligation to be on the side of God, no matter if that side belongs to the family or the husband.
     
  8. Greengardener

    Greengardener for love is of God Supporter

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    Thoughtful post, Joshua, and good comments.

    Here's what comes to mind so far.

    An ally still has the responsibility to point you to the Truth, so I have to agree with mmksparbud on this one, Joshua. That kind of help is defined further - the kisses of an enemy are sweet, but the wounds of a friend are faithful. Proverbs 27. So you'd have to give some serious thought as to which you want from her when she if forced to choose. You don't really want her putting aside her radar, her intellect, or even her own fire or you won't get much true defending when you need it.
     
  9. S.O.J.I.A.

    S.O.J.I.A. Dynamic UNO

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    cool story bro..
     
  10. St_Worm2

    St_Worm2 Simul Justus et Peccator Supporter

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    Hi again Joshua, I understand what you are getting at with your real-life example above (it's a good one, BTW :)), but neither it, nor Seekins' point about the various times that עֵזֶר is used elsewhere in the Bible (of God as our עֵזֶר/"help", with an additional, contextually inferred meaning of Him as our "protector/defender") is relevant to the contextual meaning of עֵזֶר in Genesis 2 :preach:

    Perhaps Seekins' thought would carry a bit more weight if עֵזֶר ~always~ carried the additional meaning of "protector" or "defender" whenever it is used elsewhere in the Bible, but even he admits that it does not, not even when it is used concerning God.

    My other problem with the direction that Dr. Seekins has taken is his clear stance as a lone-wolf linguist (with his definition of עֵזֶר as protector/defender in Genesis 2). As I said above, no one else uses the definitions that he does for Genesis 2.

    Is he a linguist? Or is he a relational psychologist? Or is he both or neither? I looked up some information about him and it's kind of hard to tell. Thanks!

    I'll look into all of this a bit more and get back to you, but I'm getting the sense that there may be something else going on here.

    --David
     
  11. joshua 1 9

    joshua 1 9 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I assume this door swings both ways and you do not expect him to protect you when you are wrong.

    I was talking about the Hebrew language and what the words "help" mean in Hebrew. My opinion about marriage is that the Husband is to be a type of Christ. He is to die to self and sacrifice himself for the wife the way Jesus went to Calvary and scarified Himself for us. My wife is happy that we are joint heirs. Or the way she puts it is: what is yours is mine and what is mine in mine. It is my job to provide for her needs (food, shelter and clothing) so that she can use her money to buy whatever gucci purse she wants to spend her money on to buy for herself. Although she spends most of her money to help her nephews and nieces to get their education.

    The order is God - Jesus - Man - Women - Angels. The first symbol we deal with in the Bible is the house or the dwelling. At first this represented a tent when the Children of Israel were in the wilderness. So God is the Head of the house, Jesus is the Son of the Head of the house. Jesus entered into the house as a slave or servant. He has all the power and privileges as a Son of God and we are Joint Heirs with Him. If the women were head over the man then she would be the servant. The man is head of the women so he is to be her servant. "whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first among you must be your slave" (Matthew 20:26,27)

    I agree with you that a wife should stand up to an abusive husband and she should have enough of the power and authority of God in her to be able to do that. Because she still commands the angels. Although this is a controversial opinion that people should take authority and stand up to their abuser like that. I know there are female police officers out there that would love to have the job of standing up to an abusive man if the women does not feel she is able to do that.
     
  12. joshua 1 9

    joshua 1 9 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I pointed out all four times that the word is used in the Bible. I did not get into the variations of the word using an additional letter.

    He is both. He teaches the Hebrew Language and he is a marriage councilor in Phoenix.

    I think you do not understand what he is saying. This sort of teaching is pretty advanced and it is something you have to grow into. I am amazed at how few people understand that Hebrew is a picture language. You want to argue with the definition of a word. But the word is picture. Or made up of three pictures. What you are taking issue with is the middle letter that represent a weapon.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2019
  13. St_Worm2

    St_Worm2 Simul Justus et Peccator Supporter

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    I agree with Dr. Seekins, it's used 21 times in the Bible. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you. What are the 4 times that you speak of?

    Thanks!

    --David
     
  14. joshua 1 9

    joshua 1 9 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    ‘ê·zer — 4 Occurrences

    Genesis 2:18
    HEB: אֶֽעֱשֶׂהּ־ לּ֥וֹ עֵ֖זֶר כְּנֶגְדּֽוֹ׃
    NAS: I will make him a helper suitable
    KJV: alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
    INT: to be alone will make A helper suitable

    Genesis 2:20
    HEB: לֹֽא־ מָצָ֥א עֵ֖זֶר כְּנֶגְדּֽוֹ׃
    NAS: there was not found a helper suitable
    KJV: there was not found an help meet for him.
    INT: not found A helper suitable

    Psalm 89:19
    HEB: וַתֹּ֗אמֶר שִׁוִּ֣יתִי עֵ֭זֶר עַל־ גִּבּ֑וֹר
    NAS: I have given help to one who is mighty;
    KJV: I have laid help upon [one that is] mighty;
    INT: and said have given help unto who

    Daniel 11:34
    HEB: וּבְהִכָּ֣שְׁלָ֔ם יֵעָזְר֖וּ עֵ֣זֶר מְעָ֑ט וְנִלְו֧וּ
    NAS: a little help, and many
    KJV: with a little help: but many
    INT: fall will be granted help A little will join

    Strong's Hebrew 5828
    21 Occurrences


    bə·‘ez·rî — 1 Occ.
    bə·‘ez·rōw — 1 Occ.
    ‘ê·zer — 4 Occ.
    ‘ez·rām — 3 Occ.
    ‘ez·re·ḵā — 2 Occ.
    ‘ez·rê·nū — 2 Occ.
    ‘ez·rî — 3 Occ.
    ‘ez·rōw — 1 Occ.
    lə·‘ê·zer — 1 Occ.
    wə·‘ê·zer — 1 Occ.
    ḇə·‘ez·re·ḵā — 2 Occ.
     
  15. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

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    Well the concept of "protector" (although doesn't seem inherent in the word "help meet" itself) might not be too far off; considering both were told to "keep" the garden. (Same idea, different application.) In that they were to protect this space they resided in and their failure to do so is how and why the serpent "stuck around" long enough for Eve to heed to.
     
  16. joshua 1 9

    joshua 1 9 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That would reinforce the idea that the word Helper in Hebrew means Ally. The man and a women have a covenant relation where they are to work together to defend the Garden of Eden. They should have defended the Garden against the Serpent, which they failed to do. God evicted them because they failed to evict the serpent from the garden of eden.
     
  17. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

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    I agree with you when taking into account the whole picture. They sinned for their failure to protect the garden and their sin was the reason for their eviction. Then inherent in them both protecting the garden would have been them both protecting each other.

    To do so though would not have been to stand behind someone even when they are wrong. As @mmksparbud and @Greengardener pointed out. To be a protector is to have ones back to keep them from going astray. Adam did for Eve what you wanted your wife to do for you and look at what the result was. When the blind lead the blind they both fall in the ditch.

    Obviously there are degrees of being agreeable or disagreeable. If a couple is in the grocery store and the wife says: "Let's get beef" and the husband says: "Let's get chicken." then optimally, they both should be agreeable to each other's wishes 50% of the time. (One gets their way half and the other their way half.) If it's a moral / ethical issue though; the rightness of the morals or ethics need to stand on their own.

    This goes for child rearing too. Often times "Because mom (or dad) said so." is inadequate. The goal is to grow the relationship. If you want your kids to continue to obey you as they get older; they need to see you as someone who's fair and flexible on things that aren't of moral consequence.

    My kid is 17 and granted he has some developmental issues; but for the most part he's obedient. Yet, I don't make major decisions that involve him without his input. When we redid his bedroom and converted another room into a gaming room. We started with a certain budget and he picked out the colors and the themes and the furniture. He has obtained more freedom for choices the older he's gotten. He has chronic medical issues and if he gets to the point where he does not want to undergo treatment X, Y or Z again and decides he's just ready to exit this world. I have to honor decisions he makes about his own life and body. That would be "having his back". In instances like that; we all do the best we can; yet realize there often is a tipping point where the battle is no longer winnable. That's a hard place to come to. But untimely it has to be his choice; not mine.
     
  18. joshua 1 9

    joshua 1 9 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    We are not given a lot of detail in the story. Some people believe that Adam did not want to be separated from Eve so He died for her. In the same way that Jesus went to Calvary and died for us: "for the Joy set before Him".
    For me when someone goes home to be with Jesus is a time to celebrate. We are told that life is a lot better in Heaven then here on the earth. Only we are here to earn rewards so that our experience in Heaven will be even better. God is really the one to decide when it is time for us to go home.

    I communicate quite a bit with people in Heaven. My sister for example is in Heaven and she was working on something that involves the whole family. So she was communicating with me quite a bit about that for a few weeks. Until I finally gave her the suggestions and ideas that she was wanting. So I know that our "lost" loved ones are there now, working on our mansions so that Heaven is becoming even a more wonderful place all the time. My mom and my sister are very intent on gathering as much of the family together when they are able to do that.
     
  19. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

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    I've heard this argument before; and you may have actually been one of the people I've had this conversation with over.

    Adam committed a cowardly act. There's nothing noble about disobedience. There's no way around that. Eve transgressed first because she had come from Adam; who was inherently corruptible himself. So since she was a part of him, one can't say she was the one responsible for the fall. Until Adam ate the fruit; they weren't kicked out of the garden.

    Now if Adam actually really loved Eve; he would have pleaded to God on her behalf. And ultimately the question would have been posed to Adam: "Are you willing to sacrifice your own life to save hers?" The obvious answer Adam would have offered would have been: "No." We see this in his reaction to God. He blames God for creating Eve.

    Now remember what Jesus said: "They hate you (followers) because they hate me." And they hate Christ because they hate God. Well that logic is also reversible. If you hate God, you also hate your fellow man. Adam didn't love Eve oh so he'd transgress because he loved her. Love was not Adam's motive for disobedience. That's evidenced by his distain for God.

    This is contrary to Scripture. We're not here to "rack up reward points". I honestly don't care if I get any reward in heaven. I'm just happy to be there!

    Revelation 4:
    10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

    11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

    Genesis 15:

    After these things the word of the Lord came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.

    And if someone dies of a chronic disease at the point they decide to forgo treatment; that fact that they have that disease to begin with is that God has determined their time.

    Here you have gone totally outside of the Scripture. The only thing we know of the saints in heaven is that they pray for His people on earth; as well as for His will to be done on earth.

    There is no communication between the dead and the living period.

    Leviticus 19:31
    Isaiah 8:19
    Leviticus 20:6 & 20:27
    Deuteronomy 18:10-12

    These passages make no distinction as to whether those dead are in heaven or not. ("earth bound") or even in hell.

    So, what ever you are talking to; it's not your sister. I can tell you that!

    2 Corinthians 11:14
     
  20. joshua 1 9

    joshua 1 9 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That is the whole point. Jesus does it all. What He does is MACRO and what we do is micro. Yet we still receive a reward and we throw our crowns before the crown because of what He did for us. A crown is suppose to represent fire. So we receive a crown when we are cleansed & purified with fire. Those who are not pure will be destroyed by fire.
    Your statement pretty much falsifys Calvinism and LSD who both claim it was God's will for Adam to disobey the Commandment of God not to eat from that tree. No where does the Bible suggest we should disobey God. The whole Bible is all about obedience to God.

    Then why am I talking to you, because your more dead then the people in Heaven. They have left their body of death behind and they are pure spirit.

    I had a dream about a daughter in Heaven. In the dream were two angels that were taking care of her. Are you going to say my dreams are a lie because you do not believe the scripture that says: "And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions." (Joel 2:28)

    You are the one to deny God if you deny Joel 2:28.
     
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