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Adam and Eve and The Garden of Eden, "You shall not touch it, lest you die"...

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Neogaia777, Sep 2, 2019.

  1. joshua 1 9

    joshua 1 9 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    If you study your history book it is plain and clear who would have killed him. Cain lived around 6,000 years ago. If you look at a skeleton from 10,000 years ago you will see that they are a hunter gather, they were in the prime of their life. That means they were NOT older then 30 & they died a violent death. No one before Adam died from "natural" causes. They were all hunted down and killed the way you would kill an animal that you were going to eat for dinner. We gain a lot of understanding of our Bible when we study science and history.
     
  2. Vicky gould

    Vicky gould Shekinah Supporter

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    Hi Joshua 1 9, actually the Lord sent Cain to the land of Nod which means Wanderer. Cain had taken to the land and rejected the Lamb. A picture of apostate Israel in every generation who take the Way of Cain rejecting the Lamb. Cain immediately went out and began to settle the world with his sons and out of this has come all the worlds systems. This is important because it explains why we need to be extremely careful living in this world all the worlds systems came from Cain's rebellion. Those who are trying to change these systems cannot do so. Look at what has happened to those who seek to change politics. The system worsens and the leaven that permeates politics spread through the whole loaf including the Christians. We have Christians calling good evil and evil goodRighteous people are seen to be like Lot and will not leave their time in the system until they are like Lot and his family snatched, raptured out of the spiritual Sodom and Gomorrah.
     
  3. Hillsage

    Hillsage One 4 Him & Him 4 all Supporter

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    I agree Vicky, it matters not how correct the recounting of a scripture is, it matters what the interpretation is that one walks away with. Just look at the church today, and you can easily see my point. Divisions by the hundreds by churches AND denominations over disagreement concerning the "infallible" bible they're all reading. Many divisions, even based upon reading exactly same bible translations. More so now even, with the additions of hundreds of more "infallible" bible translations for people to read.

    Your post also made me think of a verse confirming what you said.

    RSV 2CO 11:3 But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning (subtilty KJV), your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ.

    Decades ago I was studying this verse and looking up the Greek definitions of words in the verse. The word "cunning" came up. Below is a partial Strong's definition;

    3834 panourgia:adroitness ie (in a bad sense) trickery or sophistry

    I realized I didn't even really know the definition of adroitness or sophistry so I looked them up in a dictionary. The one I found said sophistry "Information that is superficially plausible." This word "cunning/subtilty" is not a word that applies to women only in this verse. The devil's "cunning/subtlety" applies to all, because the devil only needs to take the correct reading of a scripture and take you to a "superficially but plausible" interpretation of that correct reading. And off you go in deception.
     
  4. AbbaLove

    AbbaLove Circumcision of the Heart is Messianic

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    Can Not Disagree ... so was Adam the first man to cave-in to what delights the eye's of his best friend, companion, soulmate and lover?

    In part because of new age secular humanism and women's lib a 21st century male Believer should know better than to quote Paul's admonition to his wife about women being silent in church ... if he knows what's good for him ;). Paul was right (1 Corinthians 14:34) in that he was only relating what very well could be the Instruction of the Word of GOD to Adam (not his wife) in Genesis 2:17 and Genesis 3:11. It was Adam that was disobedient in not only allowing his wife to touch and eat ... as well as he, himself touching and eating the "forbidden fruit".

    There is no English translation (that i know of) that even implies: Neither you or your wife shall eat from it (Genesis 2:17 and Genesis 3:11), but rather GOD'S warning was just to Adam. Interesting footnotes in the 1599 Geneva Bible translation ...
    Christian
    Genesis 3:16-17 (GNV)
    16 ¶ Unto the woman he said, I will greatly increase thy sorrows, and thy conceptions. In sorrow shalt thou bring forth children, and thy desire shall be subject to thine husband, and he shall rule over thee.
    17 ¶ Also to Adam he said, Because thou hast obeyed the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, (whereof I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it) cursed is the earth for thy sake: in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life.
    Footnotes:
    Genesis 3:16 The Lord comforteth Adam by the promise of the blessed seed, and also punisheth the body for the sin which the soul should have been punished for; that the spirit having conceived hope of forgiveness, might live by faith.
    Genesis 3:17 The transgression of God’s commandment was the cause that both mankind and all other creatures were subject to the curse.
    Some translations of verse 16 read "subject" in place of "rule"
    Some translations of verse 17 read "listened or hearkeed" in place of "obeyed"
     
  5. misput

    misput jimd

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    The narrative is simply using figurative language to teach Spiritual concepts. Who or what else can we "eat" "body and blood" or live by to have eternal life but Christ, the Messiah, "God with us". That one is obvious, the next one is a little harder. What can we "eat" live by that will bring death, Spiritual death and teaches us about good and evil? The law, of course, Paul as you said, makes this very clear. The snake, satan, which means tempter, adversary, accuser is even more difficult but just as simple when we figure it out. Who do you personally know that tempts you, works against you and accuses you? Your fleshly self or some other fleshly being. The flesh wars against the Spirit our whole life. God made us this way and apparently it is good that we are tested by this and proven whether we will trust in our flesh or in God for salvation.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2019
  6. now faith

    now faith Veteran Supporter

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    So you base your understanding of the Bible on Science?
    Science states man evolved, and was not created , so how can you
    Trust either one?
    I do not base my knowlage of God, on the limits science puts on him.
    It takes a bit more Faith to say a skeleton is 10,000 years old based on flawed carbon dating than to simply say I don't know.
     
  7. now faith

    now faith Veteran Supporter

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    That's my take on it anyway, there are things That God would not reveal.
    Our ways are not his ways, yet the time will come when we know all things.
    By then I do not think we will care.
     
  8. joshua 1 9

    joshua 1 9 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I trust the Bible because we have the Holy Spirit of God to guide us and lead us into all truth. At first trust was difficult but over the years God has proven Himself to be trustworthy. I trust Science because Science is based on evidence given to us by God. This has to do with how things get imprinted. We have artifacts, man made objects. Also we have things like fossils that God gives us for evidence. Also there is a lot of mathematical evidence. For me Science and the Bible is like our left and our right hand. Currently I am learning the Hebrew language and the meaning of the Hebrew letters. Every letter, word, verse & story contains infinite wisdom. Even there is infinite meaning for every stroke of the pen that makes up the letters. Some letters can have up to five strokes of a pen to form the letter. The Bible contains archetypal models or energy that resonate and manifest themselves at many levels. To a limited degree I accept theistic evolution. Ultimately we have a better understanding of God, with others and also ourselves.
     
  9. AbbaLove

    AbbaLove Circumcision of the Heart is Messianic

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    Your two sentences expose a contradiction between 1st Century Christianity of the Apostles/apostles (Holy Bible), and post modern (seeker-sensitive) evangelical Christianity. Unlike baby boomers of the '40s, today's evangelicals feel they have to accept theistic evolution "to a limited degree", so they won't come across as simpletons to post modern evangelical academia. Theistic evolution is a post modern deeption (lie) by the enemy that grieves the Holy Spirit.

    Even "to a limited degree" means you have caved-in (and your not alone) with one rational being to fill the pews with "seeker-sensitive" believers who are more interested in hearing an "easy" born again message, perhaps even beginning with a funny story and ending with an "easy" born again prayer.

     
  10. joshua 1 9

    joshua 1 9 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It is the best explanation we have for the evidence we have to work with. That is the way science works. IF you have nothing better to offer, then you bring nothing to the conversation. Some of the intelligent design people went to court to present their case and they could not present a case that was acceptable to the legal court system.

    My son is busy getting his education so he can get a good job. He does not have time for these nonsense debates and discussions. The students that do get dragged into the muck would be better off just to do their homework and not waste their time on debates that accomplish nothing.

    Titus 3:9
    But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, arguments, and quarrels about the Law, because these things are pointless and worthless.

    2 Timothy 2:23
    But reject foolish and ignorant speculation, for you know that it breeds quarreling.

    If there is something in a text book that you take issue with then lets discuss that. Otherwise if it is not something our children are exposed to then what difference does it make?
     
  11. LightLoveHope

    LightLoveHope Jesus leads us to life

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    This is a profound story of how we came to be as we are.
    1. God put the tree in the garden, providing the means of gaining knowledge.
    2. God declared this knowledge would kill those who took it.
    3. Adam and Eve were not self aware. They were naked but unaware of why this could be a problem.

    Eve chose to gain a privileged position and see if God was telling the truth.
    The truth God was referring to was the broken relationship with God, death, that resulted and the choice of death over life. The serpent suggested the result would be equality of awareness with God, which was true, which God himself declares.

    Adam and Eve had life but chose death with knowledge.
    We have death and knowledge, but can choose to respond to life.

    This is the foundation of the Kingdom. John the Baptist was born filled with the Spirit so did not choose being in the Kingdom, so the least in the Kingdom is greater than John the Baptist.

    Adam and Eve did not choose evil which leads to judgement, but chose death directly.
    The burden we carry is the knowledge of good, but being unable to keep it, and not knowing why. Our hearts are our enemy, choosing rebellion rather than repentance, because without forgiveness and communion with God our hearts will always justify ourselves to everyone and God even though we are guilty.

    God bless you
     
  12. AbbaLove

    AbbaLove Circumcision of the Heart is Messianic

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    By your own quoted words it's so obvious you and many other evangelicals have been brainwashed by post modern theologians with their impressive looking framed doctorates on display in their offices.

    Your above excerpt is a blatant example of your lack of Faith. God's Faith does not depend on proof or scientific evidence, but rather quite the opposite. For example the Lord did not have to look at resumes of the most educated Pharisees and scribes before He choose His Disciples. Some of who were simple fishermen, and the one that was a tax collector ... money was his downfall.

    Proverbs 3:5-8
    5
    Trust in the Lord with all your heart; do not depend on your own understanding (or the worlds).
    6 Seek His will in all you do, and He will show you which path to take.
    7 Don’t be impressed with your own wisdom. Instead, fear the Lord and turn away from evil.
    8 Then you will have healing for your body and strength for your bones.​

    Perhaps, it's you that should take to heart your own words ...
    "IF you have nothing better to offer, then you bring nothing to the conversation"


    Maybe, You Too Somehow Became Lost Along The Way
    (start at 3:35 if your impatient)
     
  13. joshua 1 9

    joshua 1 9 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I spend up to 18 hours a day to read and study the Bible. Right now I am doing a study on the Hebrew language. I want to read the Bible in the original language.
     
  14. now faith

    now faith Veteran Supporter

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    John 4: 23. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

    John 15: 5. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8. Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

    Science and man's wisdom does not prove God.
    God is outside of time , space and matter.
    He created all things , for His Glory.
    Gods wisdom cannot be learned , yet it is given by Faith in God.

    God Bless
     
  15. joshua 1 9

    joshua 1 9 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Science is more than man's wisdom. Science is based on evidence that God gives us to examine and study. We can study and examine the evidence for ourselves. We do not have to pay any attention to man's opinions about that evidence. We have artifacts, man made items. Then we have the natural evidence, like the fossils that God provides us with to examine and study. We also have history. We have archaeology to look at the remains of the cities and people we read about in our Bible. God gives us a lot to study and He gives us a lot of evidence to work with. It is amazing all the wisdom, knowledge and understanding available to us. With God we have the answer to ever problem we well ever have. We have the answer to every question we will ever have. Far to often man does not have solutions and man does not have answers.
     
  16. AbbaLove

    AbbaLove Circumcision of the Heart is Messianic

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    That is all well and good; however let us not forget that the Pharisees including Sha'ûl (until born again) were highly educated in the Hebrew TaHaKh, and yet not born again with a circumcised heart. Many well-intentioned (but not well-grounded in HIS Word) have become deceived by the subtle theistic evolution of post modern [disenlightened] Christendom ...
    True science is based on a Biblical worldview. In His Word, GOD has revealed the basis for the preconditions of HIS intelligibility, such as HIS Spiritual logic, morality, and HIS creativity. So, although there are knowledgeable scientists on both sides, it is only the scientist who starts with GOD’S Word that can be consistent in his beliefs. In contrast evolutionary scientists assume the Bible to be flawed in order to use science, and in so doing fail to recognize HIS Word as Truth (John 1:1-14) ...
    Theistic evolution is such a subtle deception that some within Christendom are lured by an academia that doesn't believe the Bible is the infallible divinely inspired Word of GOD. Theistic evolution is actually the ever so subtle deception of the same serpent that said to Eve ...

    “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

    1 Corinthians 1:20
    Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
    1 Corinthians 3:19
    For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God ...
    James 3:5
    Such wisdom does not come from above, but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic.

    [​IMG]
    Bottomline: Theistic evolutionists seemingly have as much faith in the secular science of agnostic and aetheist academia as their questionable faith in the divinely inspirited and infallible Word of GOD.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2019
  17. misput

    misput jimd

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    Ro 1:19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
    20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
     
  18. now faith

    now faith Veteran Supporter

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    Romans 1: 19. Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse

    No problem i wanted to look at the two text types side by side.
     
  19. throughfireytrial

    throughfireytrial Truth-Lover Supporter

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    I also speculated on the topic and walked away keeping a narrow interpretation. However, as one said in conversation: I believe I was created; you evolved.
    To speculate further...the Sons of God may be those offspring of Adam...created man and woman. Others may have evolved or to an extent.
    Also, what is to be made of Melchizedek?; who is he? Is he Jesus or a forerunner of Jesus whom God gives us no information about...leaving us perhaps with only the salvation message.(??)
     
  20. misput

    misput jimd

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    "I was created, you evolved" is a very rude statement. It is very clear from the context the sons of God are the sons of faithful Seth, the daughters of men are the unfaithful daughters, granddaughters etc, of Cain. It does not matter who Melchizedek was, the salvation message is what is important.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2019
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