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AD66-70: The Day the Son of Man was revealed

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by parousia70, Nov 23, 2002.

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  1. GW

    GW Veteran

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    Old Shepherd,

    Your attempt to get around 1 John 4:12 is funny. You are trying to squeak by on an easy-to-disprove technicality. Your view is that God often physically appeared in OT times, and that he comes and shoots arrows at men, and slings stones at men, and does hand-to-hand sword fighting against men, etc.! LOL. Then, you propose a ridiculous technicality that all who have ever been on the receiving end of these physical and visible apocalypses of Jehovah all had to die, for you say Exodus 33:20 demands it (combined with 1 John 4:12).

    This foolish reasoning on your part is easy to disprove, for all I must show is that the bible tells us that many have "seen" God do such works and DIDN'T DIE! This would show a definitive contradiction against your view of Exodus 33:20/1John 4:12, and fully vindicate my view that "NO MAN HAS SEEN GOD AT ANY TIME," for the prophets spoke metaphorically concerning Jehovah's invisible doings through the Israelites and through the nations. The Hebrews knew that Jehovah is invisible (Col 1:15) and that no man has seen Jehovah at any time (1 John 4:12).

    Here we go...

    (#1) - Exodus 19:11
    ...and let them be ready for the third day, for on the third day Jehovah will come down on Mount Sinai in the sight of all the people.


    [NOTE: The Israelites did not all die when they saw Jehovah come down on Mt Sinai. Therefore, your view of Ex 33:20/1Jn 4:12 is proven wrong.]


    (#2) Deut 1:30
    Yahweh your God who goes before you, he will fight for you according to all that he did for you in Egypt before your eyes

    [NOTE: The Israelites did not all die when they saw Jehovah do those things for them in Egypt. Therefore, your view of Ex 33:20/1Jn 4:12 is proven wrong.]


    (#3) Deuteronomy 4:34
    Or hath God tried to go in to take to Himself, a nation from the midst of a nation, by trials, by signs, and by wonders, and by war, and by a strong hand, and by a stretched-out arm, and by great terrors -- ACCORDING TO ALL THAT JEHOVAH YOUR GOD HATH DONE TO YOU IN EGYPT BEFORE YOUR EYES?

    [NOTE: The Israelites did not all die when they saw Jehovah do those things before their very eyes. Therefore, your view of Ex 33:20/1Jn 4:12 is proven wrong.]


    (#4) Ezekiel 5:8,9,10,12-13,17
    therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: Behold, I, even I, am against you; and I will execute judgments in the midst of you in the sight of the nations. I will do in you that which I have not done, and whereunto I will not do any more the like, because of all your abominations.... I will execute judgments on you; and the whole remnant of you will I scatter...a third part shall fall by the sword round about you; and a third part I will scatter to all the winds, and will draw out a sword after them. Thus shall my anger be accomplished, and I will cause my wrath toward them to rest, and I shall be comforted; and they shall know that I, Yahweh, have spoken in my zeal, when I have accomplished my wrath on them.... I will bring the sword on you: I, Yahweh, have spoken it.

    [NOTE: The nations did not all die when they saw Jehovah come down and wage war against Israel, when he used His sword against them and scattererd them everywhere, accomplishing His wrath against them. Therefore, your view of Ex 33:20/1Jn 4:12 is proven wrong.]


    (#5) Deuteronomy 29:2
    And Moses summoned all Israel and said to them, "You have seen all that the LORD did before your eyes in the land of Egypt to Pharaoh and all his servants and all his land

    [NOTE: The Israelites did not all die when they saw Jehovah do those things before their very eyes. Therefore, your view of Ex 33:20/1Jn 4:12 is proven wrong.]


    (#6) - Joshua 24:17-18
    for Yahweh our God, it is he who brought us and our fathers up out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and who did those great signs in our sight, and preserved us in all the way in which we went, and among all the peoples through the midst of whom we passed; and Yahweh drove out from before us all the peoples, even the Amorites who lived in the land: therefore we also will serve Yahweh

    [NOTE: The Israelites did not all die when, in their sight, Jehovah lead them out of Egypt, performed signs, and drove out the Amorites. Therefore, your view of Ex 33:20/1Jn 4:12 is proven wrong.]



    It should be perfectly clear to all unbiased minds that the Hebrew prophets spoke metaphorically concerning the many OT apocalyptic visitations and battles that Jehovah executed upon the earth. It should be perfectly clear to all unbiased minds that while the prophets described Jehovah as physically coming down and doing these countless acts of violence and other deeds before men's eyes and in the sight of so many, they did not mean this in any literal, physical way whatsoever. The Hebrews knew that Jehovah is invisible (Col 1:15) and that no man has seen Jehovah at any time (1 John 4:12). And so, such apocalptic wars and things that Jehovah was described as doing physically before their eyes were actually carried out by and through the Israelites and through their enemies in real history. No one ever saw Jehovah physically do any of these things during his various OT comings and Day-of-the-Lord judgments against nations and individuals.

    As St. John so clearly stated:

    "NO MAN HAS SEEN GOD AT ANY TIME."
    --1 John 4:12
     
  2. Future Man

    Future Man Priest of God and the Lamb

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    Considering that God is the one who holds the power of life in His hands [Rev1:18], he is able to prevent the death of one who looks upon Him. Or do you insist that the matter is out of God's hands? I can cite numerous instances where YHWH has stated an ultimatum, and yet made exceptions to this in certain cases. See 'Solomon' VS the 'OT guidline for Kings' as one example.

    Also:
    • Isa 6:5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.

      This is literal. Note the fear for his life.
    • Exo 33:23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

      If this is merely a 'vision' which does not "count", then why hide His face? Shouldn't that be included in what does not "count" as 'seeing' God?
    • Job 42:5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.

      Dito on the literal act of seeing. This is after YHWH spoke directly to Job.
    • Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

      A vision? Then why must seeing Jesus in outward flesh "count"?
    • Exo 24:10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.

      A reference to physical sight.
    • Gen 32:29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he
      said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.
      And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and
      my life is preserved.

      Note the fear for his life. If this was not God, then what did he have to fear?
    • Num 12:8 With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?
    • Exo 24:11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.
    • Jdg 13:22 And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.

      The angels name is 'Wonderful'..cf..Is9:6 and Is9:6[Lxx]
    • Eze 1:28 As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spoke.

    Another example of YHWH making an exception.

    >

    See above. And how do harmonize the following:

    Rev 22:3-4 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

    That is literal. And of course they didn't 'die' either. By "invisible" we must mean 'hidden away', or 'only seen by the spiritual eye'.

    See above. Also note that in instances such as Zech14:3-4..cf..Acts1:11-12 the reference to "feet" is possessive. Therefore God being incarnated in the body of flesh, being a manifestation likened unto the above examples and therefore not "counting" as seeing God.
    Howbeit the possessive of "feet" still remains the same; it is "God's feet", and therefore a literal coming in that way can be made without a literal "seeing of God". Although that objection is faulty nonetheless. :idea:

    God bless--FM

    [*That post was just thrown together, so excuse the hasty format :(]
     
  3. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    [dd]No I don’t have to face anything, you are still reading your own presuppositions and assumptions back into the scripture, to make it fit your twisting of the N.T. scriptures. And oh BTW you are contradicting yourself. You keep arguing that Micah was not literal and then you say, “This is so clearly a physical description of Jehovah treading upon the highest mountains of the earth and the effects this has upon them.” Excuse me, but you can’t have it both ways it is either allegorical or it is physical.

    [dd]Your interpretation, that God treading on the high places is the direct and only cause of the phenomenon, is only one possible interpretation, and you have posted absolutely no proof that it is the correct one. God is invisible, excellent, nothing in Micah says that God was seen treading on the high places! Did God treading on the high places cause the volcanic activity? Once my wife went to a certain clothing store, that store was robbed. Did my wife cause the robbery?
    [dd]Last night I quoted those words to a friend and asked him what it was. He immediately answered a volcano. It is clear that the treading precedes the earthly phenomenon but no it is NOT clear that the treading causes the earthly phenomenon!
    [dd]You presume to speak for the Jewish viewpoint but I quoted Jewish sources which contradict you and you have never acknowledged it or responded. Question, is this your best shot? Where does Numbers 24:8 says God would be visible in this? Two, can God break bones by speaking a word, in the same way He created the earth by saying, “Let there be . . .. And as for the arrows, God calls lightning and famine His arrows.

    • 2 Samuel 22:15 And he sent out arrows, and scattered them; lightning, and discomfited them.

      Psalms 144:6 Cast forth lightning, and scatter them: shoot out thine arrows,
      and destroy them.

      Zechariah 9:14 And the LORD shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord GOD shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.

      Ezekiel 5:16 When I shall send upon them the evil arrows of famine, which shall be for their destruction, and which I will send to destroy you: and I will increase the famine upon you, and will break your staff of bread:
    [dd]Once again a deliberate misquote of scripture. How did God say He would appear to the Israelites? In fire! The Israelites SAW fire, they also SAW a pillar of smoke and a pillar of fire, during the wanderings. This blows your argument that all the appearances were metaphors representing foreign armies, etc. etc.

    • Ex 19:18
    • And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the LORD descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly.

    [dd]And once again a misinterpretation of the scripture. Does this say that God was before their eyes? NO! It says all that God did, the results of His actions, were before their eyes, NOT God Himself.
    [dd]Therefore NOTHING I have posted has been proven wrong! NOTHING, NADA! What was in the sight of the Israelites? The signs, NOT God! God drove out the Amorites, BY HIS WORD, nothing requires this to be interpreted as a physical action by GOD! God said let there be light and there was light. God said let the Amorites get out of the land. . . .

    [dd]Well I have had enough of this happy nonsense, all you can do is blindly, without any coherent thought, copy and paste misquoted, misinterpreted verses. I do not have time to go through all 31,172 verses in the Bible and show how you are misquoting and misinterpreting them to make them fit your presuppositions.
     
  4. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    Duplicate post deleted
     
  5. Evangelion

    Evangelion <b><font size="2">δυνατός</b></font>

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    Feisty. :cool:
     
  6. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    GW,

    You keep arguing, that Micah 1:2-4 and Zechariah 14:3-4 are virtually identical. Okay have it your way, but I don’t think you are going to like it.

    • Zechariah 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
      4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

      Micah 1:3 For, behold, the LORD cometh forth out of his place, and will come down, and tread upon the high places of the earth.
      4 And the mountains shall be molten under him, and the valleys shall be cleft, as wax before the fire, and as the waters that are poured down a steep place.
    I already posted the REAL Jewish understanding of Zech 14:3-4, which you have ignored these three times. Both sources available online.

    • John Gill, on Zech 14:4/Act 1:11 The Jews say {m}, that

      “when the dead shall live, the Mount of Olives shall be cleaved asunder, and all the dead of Israel shall come out from under it; yea, even the righteous which die in captivity shall pass through a subterranean cavern, and come out from under the Mount of Olives.”
      {m} Targum in Cant. viii. 5.

      Messianic Texts in the O.T.
      Zech. Xiv. 2 will be readily understood to have been applied to the wars of Messianic times, and this in many passages of the Midrashim, as, indeed, are verses 3, 4, 5, and 6.

      Verse 7. The following interesting remark occurs in Yalkut on Ps. cxxxix. 16, 17 (vol. ii. p. 129 d) on the words 'none of them.' This world is to last 6,000 years; 2,000 years it was waste and desolate, 2,000 years mark the period under the Law, 2,000 years that under the Messiah. And because our sins are increased,they are prolonged. As they are prolonged, and as we make one year in seven a Sabbatic year, so will God in the latter days make one day a Sabbatic year, which day is 1,000 years - to which applies the verse in Zechariah just quoted. See also PirqîUe R. Eliez. c. 28.

      Verse 8 is Messianically applied in Ber. R. 48. See our remarks on Gen. xviii 4, 5.

      Verse 9 is, of course, applied to Messianic times, as in Yalkut i. p. 76 c, 266 a, and vol. ii. p. 33 c, Midr. on Cant. ii. 13, and in other passages.
      The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah, Albert Edersheim

    But let us add a little context to Zechariah.

    • Zechariah 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; &#1497;&#1513&#1493;&#1506;&#1492;Yeshua”, lowly, and riding upon an as$, and upon a colt the foal of an as$.
    ”Yeshua” is how the name of Jesus is pronounced in Hebrew and Aramaic! Was this an allegory or a metaphor or was it fulfilled in the time of Zechariah?

    • Matthew 21:4 All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying,
      5 Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an as$, and a colt the foal of an as$.

      Acts 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
      11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
    When you get to exegeting this last verse remember the angel describes two actions, going and coming AGAIN in like manner.
     
  7. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    To paraphrase our friend, "ALL scholars agree" that ancient sheep herders are a feisty lot. ;)
     
  8. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    [dd]I don't want to be standing near you when you refer to a commandment of God as a "ridiculous technicality"
     
  9. Evangelion

    Evangelion <b><font size="2">δυνατός</b></font>

    +0
    OS -

    LOL, of course. I should have remember that "all scholars" agree on this point. Thankyou for refreshing my memory. ;)

    And of course, Jacob (a sheep herder from back in the day) was a pretty feisty chap himself. All that wrestling with angels... or was it actually God...? :cool:
     
  10. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    Old Shepherd,

    I have listed a ton of scriptures that fully refute your position that Jehovah physically appeared and was seen waging wars and treading on mountains, but that all who saw those events died (as your own stated view of Ex 33:20/1 John 4:12 demands). Scriptures show a great many cases where plenty of men were said to see and behold Jehovah's apocalyptic comings with their eyes and live. Therefore, your view of Ex 33:20/1Jn 4:12 is incorrect and mine is correct--namely, the prophets spoke figuratively when they claimed Jehovah was seen shooting arrows and slinging stones and usng his sword against human beings. It was fully understood to the Hebrews that human agents were the arrows, were the slings, were the sword of Jehovah during his appointed, covenantal rebukes.

    Quite simply, the Hebrew prophets constantly described Jehovah as coming down and doing all sorts of physical things, yet they understood that it wasn't actually a physical and visible reality, but a spiritual and covenantal reality.

    Like Gideon so clearly understood, the swords of the Hebrews were the sword of Jehovah:

    Jdg 7:18-20
    When I blow with a trumpet, I and all that are with me, then blow ye the trumpets also on every side of all the camp, and say, The sword of Jehovah and of Gideon. So Gideon, and the hundred men that were with him, came unto the outside of the camp in the beginning of the middle watch; and they had but newly set the watch: and they blew the trumpets, and brake the pitchers that were in their hands. And the three companies blew the trumpets, and brake the pitchers, and held the lamps in their left hands, and the trumpets in their right hands to blow withal: and they cried, The sword of Jehovah and of Gideon.
     
  11. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    No you have not proven any such thing. I have refuted every one of the scriptures you posted. You ignore what I post and repost the same thing over and over again. Maybe this will help you see, nothing in Malachi 1:2-4 stated or implied that God was seen treading on the high places or leading armies. Nothing! Nada! And nothing in the other verses stated or implied that God was seen. His actions were seen!
    False. Read and respond to my posts. Ignoring what I post does not prove it wrong.
     
  12. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    You have GOT to be kidding! Now follow this very carefully. Open you Bible to Judges 7:18. Notice the words "The sword" are in italics, which means they are not in the original Hebrew.

    • Judges 7:18 When I blow with a trumpet, I and all that are with me, then blow ye the trumpets also on every side of all the camp, and say, The sword of the LORD, and of Gideon.
    Now lets review the other verse in two Jewish translations of the Bible, Jewish Publication Society and the LXX, translated by Jews, 250 years BC.

    • (JPS) 20 And the three companies blew the horns, and broke the pitchers, and held the torches in their left hands, and the horns in their right hands wherewith to blow; and they cried: ‘The sword for the LORD and for Gideon!’

      (LXX) 20 and the three companies sounded with the horns, and broke the pitchers, and held the torches in their left hands, and in their right hands their horns to sound with; and they cried out, A sword for the Lord and for Gedeon.
    "A sword FOR the Lord." Any questions? Still want to try to tell me what the Jewish viewpoint is? As I said I have proven every one of your "proof texts" to be falsely interpreted or misquoted.
     
  13. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    Hello OS,
    You're still in denial about all the countless passages that say Jehovah was seen doing many physical things on the earth and many lived and did not die (as you suggested they must).


    Ezekiel 5:8,9,10,12-13,17
    therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: Behold, I, even I, am against you; and I will execute judgments in the midst of you IN THE SIGHT OF THE NATIONS. I will do in you that which I have not done, and whereunto I will not do any more the like, because of all your abominations.... I will execute judgments on you; and the whole remnant of you will I scatter...a third part shall fall by the sword round about you; and a third part I will scatter to all the winds, and will draw out a sword after them. Thus shall my anger be accomplished, and I will cause my wrath toward them to rest, and I shall be comforted; and they shall know that I, Yahweh, have spoken in my zeal, when I have accomplished my wrath on them.... I will bring the sword on you: I, Yahweh, have spoken it.


    [NOTE: The nations did not all die when they saw Jehovah come down and wage war against his people Israel, when he used His sword against them and scattererd them everywhere, accomplishing His wrath against them. Therefore, your view of Ex 33:20/1Jn 4:12 is proven wrong.]




    (#6) - Joshua 24:17-18
    Yahweh our God, it is he who brought us and our fathers up out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and who did those great signs in our sight, and preserved us in all the way in which we went, and among all the peoples through the midst of whom we passed; and Yahweh drove out from before us all the peoples, even the Amorites who lived in the land: therefore we also will serve Yahweh


    [NOTE: The Israelites did not all die when, in their sight, Jehovah lead them out of Egypt, performed signs, and drove out the Amorites. Therefore, your view of Ex 33:20/1Jn 4:12 is proven wrong.]



    These very graphic and physical actions ascribed to Jehovah refute your argument that all who saw Him do such things had to die.

    We see that Jehovah waged war against his people in the 500s BC, and he used his own sword and weapons against them in the sight of all the nations!

    We also see that Joshua claims Jehovah led them out of Egypt and then drove out the Amorites. Jehovah did no such thing in any physical way, even though it is described in such terms. But since you take such things as literal, and since you insist that those who see Him literally do these things must die, then the Israelites and Joshua should all have been dead. And the nations that saw Jehovah use his weapons in a war against Israel in the 500s should all have died.

    Rather, this language is metaphor, describing the works of and invisible [to us] God on our visible [to us] planet.
     
  14. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    Denial? Countless passages? Which "countless" passage have you posted that I have not rebutted? I notice that once again you have ignored the bulk of what I posted, e.g. the comment about the "sword of the Lord", just above this post.
    This does NOT say God would be in the sight of the nations but his judgments.
    This does not say God personally waged war and used his sword!
    You still haven't proved anything wrong. All you are doing is frantically, desperately searching through the Bible for any "proof text" which you think supports you, WITHOUT bothering to read the context.
    What was in their sight? those great signs! How did God drive out the Amorites, did He personally come down from heaven? Let's look at verse 12.

    • 12 And I sent the hornet before you, which drave them out from before you, even the two kings of the Amorites; but not with thy sword, nor with thy bow.
    God sent hornets! God sent the sword! God sent earthquakes, etc! Read your Bible!
    They didn't die because God did NOT appear to them! And your pathetic misquoting of this passage proves your entire belief system is based on misquoted and out-of-context scriptures. And when that is proven you simply ignore it and go looking for another "proof text"
    No graphic and physical actions are attributed to God! NONE! NADA!
    Own sword? Nope! Yahwweh waged war? Nope! You have NOT proved this! God spoke and things happened!
    False! Joshua made no such claim!

    GW just in case you don’t understand the kind of scriptural evidence I want to see is something similar to this passage. Do you have an O.T. “proof text” which speaks of God appearing as the lightning from the east to the west? Or a verse which says the “sign of God shall appear in the heaven.” Or a verse which specifically says, “they shall see God coming in the clouds of heaven?”

    • 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.* * *
      30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
      31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
    When did the events in Matt 24:31 occur? You have NOT presented one single O.T. verse which specifically uses this language. All you have are verses which you twist to try to make them fit in an effort to bolster your false teachings.
     
  15. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

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    parousia70, your conclusion that the Son of Man was revealed in AD 66-70 is based on an ERRONEOUS interpretation of some verses in Luke. Hence, your PRETERIST belief is FALSE!

    Apostle Paul wrote the Thessalonians that when the Son of Man (Jesus) is REVEALED from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do NOT know God and do NOT obey the gospel of Christ (2 Thes. 1:8).

    When Jesus COMES in that day (when the Son of Man is revealed), to be glorified in his saints (2 Thes. 1:10), all the saints will be GATHERED together to him (2 Thes. 2:1).

    Now tell me HONESTLY parousia70, are there people TODAY who do NOT know God? Are there people TODAY who do NOT obey the gospel of Christ? Have ALL the saints GATHERED together in Christ?

    Ed
     
  16. GW

    GW Veteran

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    OLD SHEP:
    Denial? Countless passages? Which "countless" passage have you posted that I have not rebutted? I notice that once again you have ignored the bulk of what I posted, e.g. the comment about the "sword of the Lord", just above this post.

    GW:
    I have listed passage after passage where the Hebrew prophets describe various comings of Jehovah which, if taken literally, mandate His appearing as a visible, physical warrior many times in OT history, being seen by many. Your denial doesn't change the facts that the language says what it says. Like...

    Deuteronomy 32:39-42
    I, am he, And there is no god but me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal; And there is none that can deliver out of my hand....If I whet my glittering sword, And my hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine adversaries, And will recompense them that hate me. I WILL MAKE MINE ARROWS DRUNK WITH BLOOD, AND MY SWORD SHALL DEVOUR FLESH; WITH THE BLOOD OF THE SLAIN AND THE CAPTIVES, FROM THE HEAD OF THE LEADERS OF THE ENEMY.


    [other examples: Ps 18:8-16; Joshua 24:17-18; Ezekiel 5:8,9,10,12-13,17; Deuteronomy 4:34; Isa 19:1-4; Isa 34]



    And, as for Gideon, I'll simply stick with Young's Literal and you stick with whatever you wish:

    Judges 7:20 (Young's Literal)
    and the three detachments blow with trumpets, and break the pitchers, and keep hold with their left hand on the lamps, and with their right hand on the trumpets to blow, and they cry, 'The sword of Jehovah and of Gideon'.



    OLD SHEP:
    [concerning: Ezekiel 5:8,9,10,12-13,17. . .I will execute judgments in the midst of you IN THE SIGHT OF THE NATIONS.]

    This does NOT say God would be in the sight of the nations but his judgments.

    "a third part shall fall by the sword round about you;. . .and will draw out a sword after them. . .I will bring the sword on you: I, Yahweh, have spoken it."

    This does not say God personally waged war and used his sword!


    GW:
    I have to chuckle at such obvious denial and double standard hermeneutics. The passage uses such strong physical, graphic metaphors that only a man with a need to deny it would ever dare try. The language speaks for itself:

    Ezekiel 5:8,9,10,12-13,17
    therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: Behold, I, even I, am against you; and I will execute judgments in the midst of you in the sight of the nations. I will do in you that which I have not done, and whereunto I will not do any more the like, because of all your abominations.... I will execute judgments on you; and the whole remnant of you will I scatter...a third part shall fall by the sword round about you; and a third part I will scatter to all the winds, and will draw out a sword after them. Thus shall my anger be accomplished, and I will cause my wrath toward them to rest, and I shall be comforted; and they shall know that I, Yahweh, have spoken in my zeal, when I have accomplished my wrath on them.... I will bring the sword on you: I, Yahweh, have spoken it.



    OLD SHEP:
    You still haven't proved anything wrong. All you are doing is frantically, desperately searching through the Bible for any "proof text" which you think supports you, WITHOUT bothering to read the context.

    GW:
    I have shown many, many cases where the language states explicitly that Jehovah was seen doing a great many physical and graphic deeds before the very eyes of men. Your denial of this fact isn't worth a response. You are so plainly in denial and applying a double standard. When such language is used of Jehovah, you say it isn't to be interpreted in a physical-literal sense; HOWEVER, when such language is used of the the Day of Christ, you say it MUST be understood in a physical-literal way. This is obviously unacceptable reasoning.



    OLD SHEP:

    ...[concerning Josh 24:17-18]

    Joshua 24:17-18
    Yahweh our God, . . .who did those great signs in our sight. . Yahweh drove out from before us all the peoples, even the Amorites who lived in the land. . .

    What was in their sight? those great signs! How did God drive out the Amorites, did He personally come down from heaven? Let's look at verse 12.

    12 And I sent the hornet before you, which drave them out from before you, even the two kings of the Amorites; but not with thy sword, nor with thy bow.


    God sent hornets! God sent the sword! God sent earthquakes, etc! Read your Bible!



    GW:
    Anyone reading Joshua 24 can see that Jehovah is described as one of the key physical players in Israel's physical, literal deliverances. I think the prophet Habakkuk has a useful clarification and description of this same history as well. Habakkuk says:

    Habakkuk 3:2-13
    O Jehovah, I have heard the report of thee, and am afraid...God came from Teman, And the Holy One from mount Paran. His glory covered the heavens, And the earth was full of his praise....He had rays coming forth from his hand;...Before him went the pestilence, And fiery bolts went forth at his feet. He stood, and measured the earth; He beheld, and drove asunder the nations; And the eternal mountains were scattered; The everlasting hills did bow; His goings were as of old. I saw the tents of Cushan in affliction; The curtains of the land of Midian did tremble. Was Jehovah displeased with the rivers? Was thine anger against the rivers, Or thy wrath against the sea, That thou didst ride upon thy horses, Upon thy chariots of salvation? Thy bow was made quite bare; ...The mountains saw thee, and were afraid;...The sun and moon stood still in their habitation, At the light of thine arrows as they went, At the shining of thy glittering spear. Thou didst march though the land in indignation; Thou didst thresh the nations in anger. Thou wentest forth for the salvation of thy people, For the salvation of thine anointed; Thou woundest the head out of the house of the wicked man, Laying bare the foundation even unto the neck. Thou didst pierce with his own staves the head of his warriors:...Thou didst tread the sea with thy horses, The heap of mighty waters.



    This is Habakkuk's account of Israel's OT deliverance going back all the way to Egypt. There are so many physical and graphic accounts here of Jehovah's coming that no one can deny. I'm sure , however, you will find a way to deny the obvious--namely, that Jehovah was plainly said to have come and led a march through the land with his horses, his chariots, his bow, and his spears--piercing the very heads of the enemies of Israel. And not only, but Jehovah stood and measured the land; He saw, and drove asunder the nations; And the eternal mountains were scattered; The everlasting hills did bow.


    This continues to support my point that the Hebrew prophets spoke using the common language and phrases of the apocalyptic genre, which, though utilizing graphic and physical sounding language, is metaphorical in nature. Jehovah never PHYSICALLY appeared and did any of these things even though the metaphors--if read literally--would demand such. Your views on this entire subject are inadequate and display much inexperience with the topic.


    OLD SHEP:
    No graphic and physical actions are attributed to God! NONE! NADA!

    GW:
    Laugh out loud.

    All unbiased minds can read these passages I continually cite and recognize that you are on thewrong side of the debate. I am fully content in the strength of my case, and I no longer need waste any time with your obstructionist denials.
     
  17. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Ok&nbsp;Ed,

    Instead of empty claims, why don't you show me, using the very scriptures I cited in the opening post, how they don't mean what I contend they mean.

    Please explain to our readers how these paralell passages can have completely different meanings.

    &nbsp;
     
  18. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    Exactly as the JW, LDS, WWCG, and every other heretical group. Find a version or translation which supports your false teaching and ignore anything, including the original languages, which contradict you. Rat poison is still rat poison, even if your favorite guru says it's sugar. Remember Jim Jones?

    As I said I read both Biblical languages, when there is a question, I go with what the original languages say, even when it contradicts what I have been taught.

    What did the early church consider the "Sword of the Lord" to be?


    You talk about denial and you still claim that God said He led armies against the Amorites, Josh 24:17-18, when God Himself said He sent hornets to drive them out.

    • 12 And I sent the hornet before you, which drave them out from before you, even the two kings of the Amorites; but not with thy sword, nor with thy bow.
    God said He sent hornets. He did not say He physically led armies. God said He sent the sword! He did not say He carried the sword! God said He drove out. . . He spoke and things happened. And for the umpteenth time God said His arrows were lightning and famine
     
  19. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    Apostle Paul wrote the Thessalonians that when the Son of Man (Jesus) is REVEALED from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance</B> on those who do NOT know God and do NOT obey the gospel of Christ (2 Thes. 1:8).

    When Jesus COMES <B>in that day</B> (when the Son of Man is revealed), to be glorified in his saints (2 Thes. 1:10), all the saints will be <B>GATHERED together</B> to him (2 Thes. 2:1).

    Now tell me HONESTLY parousia70, are there people TODAY who do NOT know God? Are there people TODAY who do NOT obey the gospel of Christ? Have ALL the saints GATHERED together in Christ?

    The TRUTH that there are still people TODAY who do NOT know God and do NOT obey the gospel of Christ and ALL saints have NOT been GATHERED together to Christ is PROOF that the verses in Luke do NOT prove that Christ's SECOND COMING ocured in AD 66-70.

    Ed
     
  20. GW

    GW Veteran

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    OLD SHEPHERD:
    You talk about denial and you still claim that God said He led armies against the Amorites, Josh 24:17-18, when God Himself said He sent hornets to drive them out.


    GW:
    Hornets? The hornets were the Israelites! Who slew the Amorites and their King, Sihon? The Psalmist says that it was Jehovah that "slew the mighty kings" Sihon of the Amorites and Og of Bashan (Ps 135:6,10-11; 136:17-20; cf. Deut 3:21-22). Ahhh, but wait...who REALLY slew King Sihon of the Amorites and Og of Bashan? You guessed it: HUMAN AGENCIES. IT WAS MOSES AND THE ISRAELITES (Numbers 21:21-25; 21:31-35; Deut 1:4; 2:31-34; 3:3,8; 4:46-47). So, here again we see how the prophets ascribe actions to Jehovah that actually were performed by human agencies. So, with this historical setting in mind, let's press on to understand Joshua 24:12,18:

    Joshua 24:12,18
    And I sent the hornet before you, which drave them out from before you, even the two kings of the Amorites [Og and Sihon]; but not with thy sword, nor with thy bow....and Yahweh drove out from before us all the peoples, even the Amorites who lived in the land: therefore we also will serve Yahweh; for he is our God.


    So let this be a lesson to you, Old Shepherd. God truly DID use the bow and the sword of Moses and the Israelites (the hornets) to destroy King Og and Sihon. Yet Yahweh takes the full credit, even saying that it was not by their bow and sword that the Amorites were driven out--yet it was indeed Moses and the Israelites and their weapons that put out the Amorites (Numbers 21:21-25; 21:31-35; Deut 1:4; 2:31-34; 3:3,8; 4:46-47).


    OLD SHEPHERD:
    God said He sent hornets [against the Amorites]. He did not say He physically led armies. God said He sent the sword!

    GW:
    We have learned it was said that Jehovah slew Sihon and Og of the Amorites (Ps 135:6,10-11; 136:17-20). But, actually, it was HUMAN AGENCIES (Numbers 21:21-25; 21:31-35; Deut 1:4; 2:31-34; 3:3,8; 4:46-47).

    And Habakkuk's account of this same period of Israel's history is even more telling, ascribing the whole shebang to the mighty warrior Jehovah (set in the apolcalyptic genre I have been showing you):

    Habakkuk 3:2-13
    O Jehovah, I have heard the report of thee, and am afraid...God came from Teman, And the Holy One from mount Paran. His glory covered the heavens, And the earth was full of his praise....He had rays coming forth from his hand;...Before him went the pestilence, And fiery bolts went forth at his feet. He stood, and measured the earth; He beheld, and drove asunder the nations; And the eternal mountains were scattered; The everlasting hills did bow; His goings were as of old. I saw the tents of Cushan in affliction; The curtains of the land of Midian did tremble. Was Jehovah displeased with the rivers? Was thine anger against the rivers, Or thy wrath against the sea, That thou didst ride upon thy horses, Upon thy chariots of salvation? Thy bow was made quite bare; ...The mountains saw thee, and were afraid;...The sun and moon stood still in their habitation, At the light of thine arrows as they went, At the shining of thy glittering spear. Thou didst march though the land in indignation; Thou didst thresh the nations in anger. Thou wentest forth for the salvation of thy people, For the salvation of thine anointed; Thou woundest the head out of the house of the wicked man, Laying bare the foundation even unto the neck. Thou didst pierce with his own staves the head of his warriors:...Thou didst tread the sea with thy horses, The heap of mighty waters.
     
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