Actually, those who are raptured will be gathered up and burned.

[Danigt22]

I got that sense. Thanks for the discussion.

But I do notice, people follow more their own works and glory rather than Gods grace and mercy.

 

[chad kincham]

The rapture has replaced discussion of the resurrection, the true hope of the gospel message. Though those passages describe something that happens - I don't see it as a thing worth noting in the context it is discussed today.

The true context of those words is to bring comfort (v18)

But the contemporary context is to replace the role of resurrection.

Instead of death being swallowed up by victory, and standing up under a tremendous weight of suffering by trusting in God - the goal is now to escape and run away.

You mean like where Jesus describes the great tribulation, then tells us to pray that we be accounted worthy to escape those things that will come?

Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

 

[chad kincham]

I am in agreement. The rapture is a modern theological invention.

The methodology to get there isn't much different than the emergent church movement's methodology.

It's actually become so confusing that I've had to go through all the scripture manuscript variants and apply the different possible meaning to each scripture just to find an application with biblical fruit. And, I'm kind of not done with that process yet.

But one good rule of thumb (beyond the various rules to read scripture embedded within the scripture) is if I become more intimate with God in the application, it is a good one - if not, then it is a bad one and needs to be discarded.

Thank you for posting it was a good read.

Rapture means to be caught up.

It’s not hard to find believers being caught up in the clouds, in the air, in the New Testament.

Hint: 1 Thessalonians 4 and 1 Corinthians 15.

Shalom.

 

[chad kincham]

But the Matthew event and the 1st Thessalonians event are not the same event.

The Matthew event is Jesus gathering His elect, from the whole earth.

There doesn’t seem to be a resurrection in the Matthew rapture, as there is in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, so that’s true that they are different.

Shalom.

 

[Aussie Pete]

I did study the other references in the book of Matthew.

The book of Matthew seems to be discussing an event where the evil will be taken away first, and then the good ones will be gathered.

If there is another event speaking of something else, Matthew cannot be used to support it.

The gospels were written some years after the epistles. There was obviously confusion in at least some parts of the church. Paul clarified the issue. That's what I mean by studying the whole of relevant scripture. People who do study the issue realise that the rapture is wonderful for believers and terrible for unbelievers. Some believe that carnal Christians will not be raptured but will go through the great tribulation. If that is so, God's promises still avail. It may be a terrible time but God's grace is always sufficient. It's far better to be totally committed to the Lordship of Christ, to be a disciple, not just a convert, and allowing the Lord Jesus to continually deliver us from whatever hinders our walk in the Spirit. "Seek first the kingdom of God....."

 

[Neogaia777]

Matthew 13

24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. 26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.” ’

Why do people think being raptured is a good thing?

This is not talking about the immediate rapture that is coming, but is talking about the final harvest or judgement, and the end of this age, and/or all era's or ages at the end of this whole entire creation age, etc, when all souls are reaped or harvested and/or all each judged each individually and finally together, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Blade]

Thanks Michael.. thats not talking about "caught up". Has nothing what so ever to do with that. Sorry its called context. Read above and below.

"those who are raptured will be gathered up and burned." How can you even say this? Well Christ comes in the air.. voice shout trump.. dead rise we change go with them to meet the lord in the air to be with Him forever. So how did you get "gathered up and burned?

You know a few weeks ago I had a dream. In the dream was just this huge plant and He said you have to let them grow together. That was it.

"I am in agreement. The rapture is a modern theological invention." Tell that to the hymn writer in 300-400Ad that wrote about "Caught up" happening before the great tribulation. Or the others before him.

 

[Petros2015]

The fire is God's presence.
God is everywhere, and only those who have taken time to prepare for the world where God is everywhere in the form that scared people in the time of Moses will be able to enjoy it. It will be hell for everyone else.

Interesting. That's actually a somewhat Orthodox thought and interpretation if you weren't aware.
"it's all relative" they would say (or words to that effect)
The Orthodox Faith - Volume IV - Spirituality - The Kingdom of Heaven - Heaven and Hell

What is the experience of someone who spent their life learning to love the dark when they are brought into a place and presence where there is only light? What is the experience of someone who loves and wants only fakenews when they are brought to a place where there is no more fakenews - it's all real, all Truth, 100%, all the time, whether they like it or not?

Do they call that place Heaven?
Or Hell?

Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess
But some may enjoy it
More than others

==
According to the saints, the “fire” that will consume sinners at the coming of the Kingdom of God is the same “fire” that will shine with splendor in the saints. It is the “fire” of God’s love; the “fire” of God Himself who is Love. “For our God is a consuming fire” (Heb 12.29) who “dwells in unapproachable light” (1 Tim 6.16). For those who love God and who love all creation in Him, the “consuming fire” of God will be radiant bliss and unspeakable delight. For those who do not love God, and who do not love at all, this same “consuming fire” will be the cause of their “weeping” and their “gnashing of teeth.”

Thus it is the Church’s spiritual teaching that God does not punish man by some material fire or physical torment. God simply reveals Himself in the risen Lord Jesus in such a glorious way that no man can fail to behold His glory. It is the presence of God’s splendid glory and love that is the scourge of those who reject its radiant power and light.

. . . those who find themselves in hell will be chastised by the scourge of love. How cruel and bitter this torment of love will be! For those who understand that they have sinned against love, undergo no greater suffering than those produced by the most fearful tortures. The sorrow which takes hold of the heart, which has sinned against love, is more piercing than any other pain. It is not right to say that the sinners in hell are deprived of the love of God . . . But love acts in two ways, as suffering of the reproved, and as joy in the blessed! (Saint Isaac of Syria, Mystic Treatises).

This teaching is found in many spiritual writers and saints: Saint Maximus the Confessor, the novelist Fyodor Dostoevsky. At the end of the ages God’s glorious love is revealed for all to behold in the face of Christ. Man’s eternal destiny—heaven or hell, salvation or damnation—depends solely on his response to this love.
===

 

[Petros2015]

So much for those mega churches

Heh. No comment.

 

[RickReads]

The gospels were written some years after the epistles. There was obviously confusion in at least some parts of the church. Paul clarified the issue. That's what I mean by studying the whole of relevant scripture. People who do study the issue realise that the rapture is wonderful for believers and terrible for unbelievers. Some believe that carnal Christians will not be raptured but will go through the great tribulation. If that is so, God's promises still avail. It may be a terrible time but God's grace is always sufficient. It's far better to be totally committed to the Lordship of Christ, to be a disciple, not just a convert, and allowing the Lord Jesus to continually deliver us from whatever hinders our walk in the Spirit. "Seek first the kingdom of God....."

I disagree, you cause me to break my own rule and put up a cut and paste.

New Testament

James--A.D. 44-49
Galatians--A.D. 49-50
Matthew--A.D. 50-60
Mark--A.D. 50-60
1 Thessalonians--A.D. 51
2 Thessalonians--A.D. 51-52
1 Corinthians--A.D. 55
2 Corinthians--A.D. 55-56
Romans-- A.D. 56
Luke--A.D. 60-61
Ephesians--A.D. 60-62
Philippians--A.D. 60-62
Philemon--A.D. 60-62
Colossians--A.D. 60-62
Acts--A.D. 62
1 Timothy--A.D. 62-64
Titus--A.D. 62-64
1 Peter--A.D. 64-65
2 Timothy--A.D. 66-67
2 Peter--A.D. 67-68
Hebrews--A.D. 67-69
Jude--A.D. 68-70
John--A.D. 80-90
1 John--A.D. 90-95
2 John--A.D. 90-95
3 John--A.D. 90-95
Revelation--A.D. 94-96

 

[RickReads]

The Matthew event is Jesus gathering His elect, from the whole earth.

There doesn’t seem to be a resurrection in the Matthew rapture, as there is in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, so that’s true that they are different.

Shalom.

Dead people not part of the elect?

 

[RickReads]

You mean like where Jesus describes the great tribulation, then tells us to pray that we be accounted worthy to escape those things that will come?

Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

I`ve reflected on this verse quite a bit over the years, it`s the closest thing to a pretrib rapture in the Bible. I believe the passage below from Rev 14 is the tie in and occurs before the 1st resurrection which is usually called rapture by protestants. Most will not make it into this escape.

14 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

 

[Neogaia777]

Interesting. That's actually a somewhat Orthodox thought and interpretation if you weren't aware.
"it's all relative" they would say (or words to that effect)
The Orthodox Faith - Volume IV - Spirituality - The Kingdom of Heaven - Heaven and Hell

What is the experience of someone who spent their life learning to love the dark when there are brought into a place and presence where there is only light? What is the experience of someone who loves and wants only fakenews when they are brought to a place where there is no more fakenews - it's all real, all Truth, 100%, all the time, whether they like it or not?

Do they call that place Heaven?
Or Hell?

Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess
But some may enjoy it
More than others

==
According to the saints, the “fire” that will consume sinners at the coming of the Kingdom of God is the same “fire” that will shine with splendor in the saints. It is the “fire” of God’s love; the “fire” of God Himself who is Love. “For our God is a consuming fire” (Heb 12.29) who “dwells in unapproachable light” (1 Tim 6.16). For those who love God and who love all creation in Him, the “consuming fire” of God will be radiant bliss and unspeakable delight. For those who do not love God, and who do not love at all, this same “consuming fire” will be the cause of their “weeping” and their “gnashing of teeth.”

Thus it is the Church’s spiritual teaching that God does not punish man by some material fire or physical torment. God simply reveals Himself in the risen Lord Jesus in such a glorious way that no man can fail to behold His glory. It is the presence of God’s splendid glory and love that is the scourge of those who reject its radiant power and light.

. . . those who find themselves in hell will be chastised by the scourge of love. How cruel and bitter this torment of love will be! For those who understand that they have sinned against love, undergo no greater suffering than those produced by the most fearful tortures. The sorrow which takes hold of the heart, which has sinned against love, is more piercing than any other pain. It is not right to say that the sinners in hell are deprived of the love of God . . . But love acts in two ways, as suffering of the reproved, and as joy in the blessed! (Saint Isaac of Syria, Mystic Treatises).

This teaching is found in many spiritual writers and saints: Saint Maximus the Confessor, the novelist Fyodor Dostoevsky. At the end of the ages God’s glorious love is revealed for all to behold in the face of Christ. Man’s eternal destiny—heaven or hell, salvation or damnation—depends solely on his response to this love.
===

Just as long as we don't confuse it for the "strange fire" that the world offers, then, fine...

Or dark fire, or false love, etc, or whatever you want to call it that is strange, and very strange, and false, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Just as long as we don't confuse it for the "strange fire" that the world offers, then, fine...

Or dark fire, or false love, etc, or whatever you want to call it that is strange, and very strange, and false, etc...

God Bless!

We must always remember that there is always the false parading itself around as the true, and that it is very slick and very deceptive and fools and tricks many, but the end of which is very, very bad, and always ends up in the end very badly for the ones deceived or taken in by or caught up in it or by it, etc...

Watch out for it, for it is nearly everywhere in the world right now, etc, and there are many, very, very many in this very moment that are deceived by it, etc, and they will all turn on you and consume you and deceive you if they can, etc...

Try to get you into what they are caught up into if they can, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Petros2015]

Just as long as we don't confuse it for the "strange fire" that the world offers, then, fine...

I'm not sure I follow you - is there a reference to "strange fire" somewhere?

I always liked these verses from the 3rd chapter of Book of Wisdom. I believe it is dated circa about 50-100BC? (BTW - If that dating is correct, the 2nd chapter seems to be a pretty clear reference to the shortly coming Christ.)

Book of Wisdom - Wikipedia

==
It is one of the seven Sapiential or wisdom books comprising the Septuagint, the others being Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs (Song of Solomon), Job, and Sirach. It is included in the canon of Deuterocanonical books by the Roman Catholic Church and the anagignoskomena (Gr. ἀναγιγνωσκόμενα, meaning "those which are to be read") of the Eastern Orthodox Church. Most Protestants consider it part of the Apocrypha.
==

The Book of Wisdom or The Wisdom of Solomon

3:1 But the souls of the righteous are in the hand of God, and there shall no torment touch them.
3:2 In the sight of the unwise they seemed to die: and their departure is taken for misery,
3:3 And their going from us to be utter destruction: but they are in peace.
3:4 For though they be punished in the sight of men, yet is their hope full of immortality.
3:5 And having been a little chastised, they shall be greatly rewarded: for God proved them, and found them worthy for himself.
3:6 As gold in the furnace hath he tried them, and received them as a burnt offering.
3:7 And in the time of their visitation they shall shine, and run to and fro like sparks among the stubble.
3:8 They shall judge the nations, and have dominion over the people, and their Lord shall reign for ever.

"in the time of their visitation they shall shine, and run to and fro like sparks among the stubble."

To run to and fro like a spark...
Tell me now, who wouldn't want to do that? If you could be one or the other at the end?
The Righteous don't mind the Fire shining through them any more than a jewel would
But for the Stubble...
Well, "individual experiences may vary"

 

[Aussie Pete]

I disagree, you cause me to break my own rule and put up a cut and paste.

New Testament

James--A.D. 44-49
Galatians--A.D. 49-50
Matthew--A.D. 50-60
Mark--A.D. 50-60
1 Thessalonians--A.D. 51
2 Thessalonians--A.D. 51-52
1 Corinthians--A.D. 55
2 Corinthians--A.D. 55-56
Romans-- A.D. 56
Luke--A.D. 60-61
Ephesians--A.D. 60-62
Philippians--A.D. 60-62
Philemon--A.D. 60-62
Colossians--A.D. 60-62
Acts--A.D. 62
1 Timothy--A.D. 62-64
Titus--A.D. 62-64
1 Peter--A.D. 64-65
2 Timothy--A.D. 66-67
2 Peter--A.D. 67-68
Hebrews--A.D. 67-69
Jude--A.D. 68-70
John--A.D. 80-90
1 John--A.D. 90-95
2 John--A.D. 90-95
3 John--A.D. 90-95
Revelation--A.D. 94-96

So which scriptures support the notion that the rapture is something for Christians to fear? Which is the position taken by the OP.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

You are welcome, eschatology really doesnt matter if we are wrong or right.

Agreed.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

You mean like where Jesus describes the great tribulation, then tells us to pray that we be accounted worthy to escape those things that will come?

Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Somehow I fail to grasp how worrying over whether you're worthy or not is a comforting thought.

I find this passage is a good application for any generation, since there is always something to escape with the grace of God, so always be prepared.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Rapture means to be caught up.

It’s not hard to find believers being caught up in the clouds, in the air, in the New Testament.

Hint: 1 Thessalonians 4 and 1 Corinthians 15.

Shalom.

I understand the reference, it came from the latin bible because Darby invented the idea.

This new focus, has it really made us stronger as a faith?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Interesting. That's actually a somewhat Orthodox thought and interpretation if you weren't aware.
"it's all relative" they would say (or words to that effect)
The Orthodox Faith - Volume IV - Spirituality - The Kingdom of Heaven - Heaven and Hell

What is the experience of someone who spent their life learning to love the dark when they are brought into a place and presence where there is only light? What is the experience of someone who loves and wants only fakenews when they are brought to a place where there is no more fakenews - it's all real, all Truth, 100%, all the time, whether they like it or not?

Do they call that place Heaven?
Or Hell?

Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess
But some may enjoy it
More than others

==
According to the saints, the “fire” that will consume sinners at the coming of the Kingdom of God is the same “fire” that will shine with splendor in the saints. It is the “fire” of God’s love; the “fire” of God Himself who is Love. “For our God is a consuming fire” (Heb 12.29) who “dwells in unapproachable light” (1 Tim 6.16). For those who love God and who love all creation in Him, the “consuming fire” of God will be radiant bliss and unspeakable delight. For those who do not love God, and who do not love at all, this same “consuming fire” will be the cause of their “weeping” and their “gnashing of teeth.”

Thus it is the Church’s spiritual teaching that God does not punish man by some material fire or physical torment. God simply reveals Himself in the risen Lord Jesus in such a glorious way that no man can fail to behold His glory. It is the presence of God’s splendid glory and love that is the scourge of those who reject its radiant power and light.

. . . those who find themselves in hell will be chastised by the scourge of love. How cruel and bitter this torment of love will be! For those who understand that they have sinned against love, undergo no greater suffering than those produced by the most fearful tortures. The sorrow which takes hold of the heart, which has sinned against love, is more piercing than any other pain. It is not right to say that the sinners in hell are deprived of the love of God . . . But love acts in two ways, as suffering of the reproved, and as joy in the blessed! (Saint Isaac of Syria, Mystic Treatises).

This teaching is found in many spiritual writers and saints: Saint Maximus the Confessor, the novelist Fyodor Dostoevsky. At the end of the ages God’s glorious love is revealed for all to behold in the face of Christ. Man’s eternal destiny—heaven or hell, salvation or damnation—depends solely on his response to this love.
===

Thank you for that.

I was partially aware from previous conversations that the Orthodox view would be similar if not same.

God Bless.