Acts 21-28 Paul is a Messianic Jew and declares his views under oath

[Open Heart]

I am happy to here that sort of speculation - where does Paul make such a claim??

Why do we need Paul to say anything about it? One has only to read the Torah to know that God first gave ten written in his own hand, and then all the rest of the 613 orally to Moses. This is not a matter of dispute.

 

[BobRyan]

The 613 as Maimondides organized them are not listed in the order they were given. They are organized by topic.

Making it impossible to argue that the 5th commandment is the first commandment with a promise within the 613 tradition --> at the time of Paul <-- or... ever.

The point remains.

Obviously

No it doesn't at all.

yes it does.

The ten commandments are the first 10 given of the 613.

I am happy to hear that sort of speculation - where does Paul make such a claim??

Why do we need Paul to say anything about it?

1. because it is better than making stuff up
2. because Paul is the one in Ephesians 6:2 telling us which commandment is the first commandment with a promise -- in that still-valid unit of Law called the TEN Commandments

One has only to read the Torah to know that God first gave ten written in his own hand,

Reading from Genesis to Exodus and the giving of the Ten Commandments - we do not find that the 5 commandment is the first commandment with a promise - until you get to the Ten.

1. God spoke to Moses - before Sinai's Ten Commandments were given.
2. At Sinai - only the TEN were spoken by God to all of Israel. Not 613.
3. Only the TEN were kept inside the Ark of the Covenant itself -- not 613.

 

[Open Heart]

1. God spoke to Moses - before Sinai's Ten Commandments were given.

And which of these has a promise attached?

 

[BobRyan]

And which of these has a promise attached?

As turns out - there are a great many promises in Genesis and Exodus prior to Exodus 20:12

One tiny example of a command with a promise is in Genesis 26

There was a famine in the land, besides the first famine that was in the days of Abraham. And Isaac went to Abimelech king of the Philistines, in Gerar.
2 Then the Lord appeared to him and said: “Do not go down to Egypt; live in the land of which I shall tell you. 3 Dwell in this land, and I will be with you and bless you; for to you and your descendants I give all these lands, and I will perform the oath which I swore to Abraham your father. 4 And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed;

5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”

 

[Open Heart]

As turns out - there are a great many promises in Genesis and Exodus prior to Exodus 20:12

One tiny example of a command with a promise is in Genesis 26

There was a famine in the land, besides the first famine that was in the days of Abraham. And Isaac went to Abimelech king of the Philistines, in Gerar.
2 Then the Lord appeared to him and said: “Do not go down to Egypt; live in the land of which I shall tell you. 3 Dwell in this land, and I will be with you and bless you; for to you and your descendants I give all these lands, and I will perform the oath which I swore to Abraham your father. 4 And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed;

5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”

The commandment HERE at THIS time, is given only to Isaac specifically. It is not given to the entire people of Israel until Deut. 17:16

Can you try again?

 

[BobRyan]

And which of these has a promise attached?

As turns out - there are a great many promises in Genesis and Exodus prior to Exodus 20:12

One tiny example of a command with a promise is in Genesis 26

There was a famine in the land, besides the first famine that was in the days of Abraham. And Isaac went to Abimelech king of the Philistines, in Gerar.
2 Then the Lord appeared to him and said: “Do not go down to Egypt; live in the land of which I shall tell you. 3 Dwell in this land, and I will be with you and bless you; for to you and your descendants I give all these lands, and I will perform the oath which I swore to Abraham your father. 4 And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed;

5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”

Ephesians 6:2 says "first commandment with a promise" --

I gave one example of a commandment found in Genesis BEFORE Exodus 20:12 which of course we all know there many such commands with promises before Exodus 20:12

The commandment HERE at THIS time, is given only to Isaac specifically.

Sin IS transgression of the LAW ... is it your claim that it was not a sin for people who were "not Isaac" to murder or lie or take God's name in vain??

The point remains.

 

[Open Heart]

2 Then the Lord appeared to him and said: “Do not go down to Egypt; live in the land of which I shall tell you. 3 Dwell in this land

This is not a command to Israel, but to a specific person. Nice try.

 

[BobRyan]

This is not a command to Israel, but to a specific person. Nice try.

It is a command and a promise in the Bible -- prior to Exodus 20:12... and we all know it.

Meanwhile Exodus 20:12 is the "First commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2 in the actual TEN Commandments and not the First commandment with a promise -- in the Bible... or in the book of Genesis.

And we all know it.

If one is stuck on inserting "first promise to Israel -- with a promise" ... well then plenty of THOSE as well before Exodus 20:12

Exodus 12
11 Now you shall eat it in this manner: with your loins girded, your sandals on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and you shall eat it in haste—it is the Lord’s Passover. 12 For I will go through the land of Egypt on that night, and will strike down all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgments—I am the Lord. 13 The blood shall be a sign for you on the houses where you live; and when I see the blood I will pass over you, and no plague will befall you to destroy you when I strike the land of Egypt.

It is my role .. to state the obvious.

 

[klutedavid]

What is encouraging is that the span from Acts 21-28 gives a great view of how Paul declared his own practice "under oath" and before both Jews and gentiles starting with clarification of his teaching for his fellow Messianic Jews.



Acts 21
24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law

Acts 24
14But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets


Acts 25
8 while he answered for himself, &#8220;Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I offended in anything at all.;


Acts 26
Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses said would come; 23 that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles;

Acts 28
17 And it came to pass after three days that Paul called the leaders of the Jews together. So when they had come together, he said to them: Men and brethren, though I have done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans,... I have called for you, to see you and speak with you, because for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.
...
23 So when they had appointed him a day, many came to him at his lodging, to whom he explained and solemnly testified of the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus from both the Law of Moses and the Prophets, from morning till evening

Hello Bob.

Paul was keeping the law, yes, the whole law when he was around the Jews.

"you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law" (Acts 21:24)

This keeping the law by Paul included much more than just the ten commandments.

 

[BobRyan]

Hello Bob.

Paul was keeping the law, yes, the whole law when he was around the Jews.

"you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law" (Acts 21:24)

This keeping the law by Paul included much more than just the ten commandments.

Paul is asked in Acts 21 to prove that he was not teaching Jews that decided to become Christian -- to stop circumcising their children.

What part of that did you think I was going to object to??

What part of that did you think flies in the face of "Law does not exist after the cross" arguments that we see coming from "some"?

 

[klutedavid]

Paul is asked in Acts 21 to prove that he was not teaching Jews that decided to become Christian -- to stop circumcising their children.

What part of that did you think I was going to object to??

What part of that did you think flies in the face of "Law does not exist after the cross" arguments that we see coming from "some"?

Hello Bob.

Is that what chapter twenty one is talking about Bob?

Is chapter twenty one just talking about Paul teaching Jews against circumcision?

 

[BobRyan]

Hello Bob.

Is that what chapter twenty one is talking about Bob?

Is chapter twenty one just talking about Paul teaching Jews against circumcision?

Let's quote the text.

Acts 21
17 After we arrived in Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly. 18 And the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present. 19 After he had greeted them, he began to relate one by one the things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; 21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. 22 What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. 23 Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow; 24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law. 25 But concerning the Gentiles who have believed, we wrote, having decided that they should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication.” 26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day, purifying himself along with them, went into the temple giving notice of the completion of the days of purification, until the sacrifice was offered for each one of them.

Now in all honesty David - wouldn't you admit that you too are saying the very same thing about Paul's teaching as his accusers were saying in Acts 21??

 

[klutedavid]

Let's quote the text.

Acts 21
17 After we arrived in Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly. 18 And the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present. 19 After he had greeted them, he began to relate one by one the things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; 21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. 22 What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. 23 Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow; 24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law. 25 But concerning the Gentiles who have believed, we wrote, having decided that they should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication.” 26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day, purifying himself along with them, went into the temple giving notice of the completion of the days of purification, until the sacrifice was offered for each one of them.

Now in all honesty David - wouldn't you admit that you too are saying the very same thing about Paul's teaching as his accusers were saying in Acts 21??

Hello Bob.

No Bob, I am not saying what the accusers were saying.

Once you quoted the entire text, we see that the issue was not just about circumcision of Jewish children. Paul was taking vows, seeking purification through sacrifices, obeying the entire law. Yet the Gentiles were still only under the same four rules of Acts 15.

Sacrifices in the temple had not been abolished!

Do you seek purification through sacrifices, Bob?

 

[BobRyan]

Acts 21
17 After we arrived in Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly. 18 And the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present. 19 After he had greeted them, he began to relate one by one the things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; 21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. 22 What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. 23 Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow; 24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law. 25 But concerning the Gentiles who have believed, we wrote, having decided that they should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication.” 26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day, purifying himself along with them, went into the temple giving notice of the completion of the days of purification, until the sacrifice was offered for each one of them.

Hello Bob.

No Bob, I am not saying what the accusers were saying.

Hi David -

Nice to hear that.

Once you quoted the entire text, we see that the issue was not just about circumcision of Jewish children. Paul was taking vows, seeking purification through sacrifices, obeying the entire law. Yet the Gentiles were still only under the same four rules of Acts 15.

That is pretty funny since Acts 15 says nothing about Loving God - or not taking God's name in vain, or honoring parents, or not coveting, or loving your neighbor as yourself....

What is more - Acts 17:11 they are actually blessed and approved for treating the actual Bible as if it mattered "They studied the scriptures daily to see IF those things spoken by Paul were SO" -- we call it the "protestant reformation" in the 15th century -- back then it was just "sola scriptura" Acts 17:11.

How is it that you are repeatedly proposing an alternative that requires that I merely state the obvious... the basics of protestantism and the teaching of "sola scriptura"?

 

[ToBeLoved]

As turns out - there are a great many promises in Genesis and Exodus prior to Exodus 20:12

One tiny example of a command with a promise is in Genesis 26

There was a famine in the land, besides the first famine that was in the days of Abraham. And Isaac went to Abimelech king of the Philistines, in Gerar.
2 Then the Lord appeared to him and said: “Do not go down to Egypt; live in the land of which I shall tell you. 3 Dwell in this land, and I will be with you and bless you; for to you and your descendants I give all these lands, and I will perform the oath which I swore to Abraham your father. 4 And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed;

5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”

Ephesians 6:2 says "first commandment with a promise" --

I gave one example of a commandment found in Genesis BEFORE Exodus 20:12 which of course we all know there many such commands with promises before Exodus 20:12




Sin IS transgression of the LAW ... is it your claim that it was not a sin for people who were "not Isaac" to murder or lie or take God's name in vain??

The point remains.

God held those before the Law to other standards. Not to the Law which was not written yet. So says Romans.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Hello Bob.

No Bob, I am not saying what the accusers were saying.

Once you quoted the entire text, we see that the issue was not just about circumcision of Jewish children. Paul was taking vows, seeking purification through sacrifices, obeying the entire law. Yet the Gentiles were still only under the same four rules of Acts 15.

Sacrifices in the temple had not been abolished!

Do you seek purification through sacrifices, Bob?

Paul was undertaking a very specific purification process with a few others.

This was not a ritual sacrifice for breaking the OT Laws.

 

[klutedavid]

Paul was undertaking a very specific purification process with a few others.

This was not a ritual sacrifice for breaking the OT Laws.

Hello ToBeLoved.

Paul was a Jew, a Jew in Jerusalem is under the national law of Israel.

Paul had to obey the entire law when in Jerusalem, otherwise he would be in very serious trouble. If the law required sacrifice then Paul would have obeyed the law, Paul had no choice. Jerusalem was under the entire law of Moses, national law, every Jew was compelled to obey the law to the letter.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Hello ToBeLoved.

Paul was a Jew, a Jew in Jerusalem is under the national law of Israel.

Paul had to obey the entire law when in Jerusalem, otherwise he would be in very serious trouble. If the law required sacrifice then Paul would have obeyed the law, Paul had no choice. Jerusalem was under the entire law of Moses, national law, every Jew was compelled to obey the law to the letter.

I was referring to what was written in post 494 about Acts 21, specifically verses 23-25 which are very clear that Paul chose to also do a vow of purification that was being done by four men. To prove he was a law abiding Jew because it was being questioned.

It was a special, particular vow. Not what all the other Jews in Jerusalem were doing.

That was my point.

It was not about the Law, but an extra purification ritual. I studied it a while back.

 

[bugkiller]

.

bugkiller

 

[BobRyan]

Hello ToBeLoved.

Paul was a Jew, a Jew in Jerusalem is under the national law of Israel.

Paul had to obey the entire law when in Jerusalem, otherwise he would be in very serious trouble. If the law required sacrifice then Paul would have obeyed the law, Paul had no choice. Jerusalem was under the entire law of Moses, national law, every Jew was compelled to obey the law to the letter.

nonsense.

In Acts 21 Paul does not make the argument "I only follow scripture when in Jerusalem".

In Acts 21 Paul does not make the argument "I am in rebellion against the LAW of God any time I am outside of Jerusalem".

And we all know it.

In fact he makes the exact opposite argument against the false charge that when he is not in Jerusalem he teaches Jews to reject the LAW of God, scripture, the word of God.