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Featured Acts 2 vs 1 Cor 14

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Jeremiah33, Nov 5, 2017.

  1. Hillsage

    Hillsage One for Him and Him for all Supporter

    United States
    I would disagree. I would say that you have a 'soul' problem and not a 'Spirit gift' problem. And it is a problem that is rampant in the Crazimatic realm, where "the GIFTS and calling of God are irrevocable." That's why we get so many bad raps....we've earned them from immaturity and misuse. Your bible tells you what God's gift of tongues produces for a Spirit baptized person, and it is "self EDIFICATION ". That is 'bible's definition' of the prayer tongue experience of your spirit. To question 'the gift' because of soulish immaturity, which we all struggle with, would be no different than questioning your basic GIFT of salvation because you still have pride and greed IMO.
  2. Marvin Knox

    Marvin Knox Senior Veteran

    I must respectfully disagree with Hillsage that these things happening in the temple clears up any difficulties and with you about it being necessarily in the temple --- upon reflection, I stand corrected about there not being seating in the temple based on th verse you provide here and on the verses about the money changers seating in the temple.
    There are none. Nor did I say there were.

    You said the Holy Spirit wasn't involved and I showed you how He had to be given the conversions which took place.
    How are these verses, so often quoted by charismatics to indicate an unknown prayer language, taken out of context?

    "For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries." 1 Corinthians 14:2

    "For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. What is the outcome then? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also." 1 Corinthians 14:14-15

    "But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit" Jude 1:20
    I have only said that it makes more sense to me to think of "tongues" in all cases in the book of Acts and in Corinthians as the same as the mysterious language of the Spirit we have directions for use of in the above 3 verses.

    Since the languages elsewhere are mysteries unless God provides the understanding, I believe that to be the case in Acts 2 as well since it doesn't say clearly that they spoke in known languages.

    I do not see known languages used in the services of any charismatics today or in the past - only the mysterious languages. You, of course, do not believe in these things, which is your privilege.

    We have been through your man centered linguistic proofs before and I reject them. IMO they do not apply concerning a spiritual language the Lord tells us that no man understands.
    Although I don't blindly believe that it is always practiced scripturally - I disagree that it is not sometimes practiced so and it is for today.
    Of course.
    I "assume" the quite often it is not and often it is.
    Of course it is. I just provided three verses (and you'll have to show me how they are taken "out of context" by charismatics).
    I agree with him.

    But I don't agree with is many of the practices of Pentecostals and charismatics. I find them unscriptural and even deceptive in some ways.
    I would not say that everyone speaking in tongues today is doing it scripturally or even that what they are experiencing is not as you say. You and I are on the same page on that and I have never indicated otherwise.

    But when you assume and say presumptuously "you and millions of others" - I must disagree. Why not do as I do and critique what is obviously not according to scripture when you see it and leave the other's experiences between them and God?

    Of course you, holding as you do the scripturally unwarranted "cessationist" position, see it all as being not scriptural. That OK by me. I would just warn you to not ever do what is clearly against what the Lord commands and forbid the speaking of tongues. IMO, making it a prime goal in your teaching to undermine people choosing to do it runs perilously close to that. I assume you disagree.
    You've posted most all of these ideas and data about tongues many times elsewhere. It seems to be very important to you.

    I simply disagree that Dr. Samarin and others like him are usually equipped to critique the things of the Spirit since they likely aren't able or willing to understand them according to the scriptures.

    Do you know that Dr. Samarin a born again Christian?

    You reject not only my "novel" view of these things. You reject those of all charismatics and Pentecostals. So you aren't likely to be convinced.

    Nor will I be convinced by you.

    After this, I'll like to address the questions posed by the OP as my original post tried to do since you and I are both familiar with the arguments you are putting forward. :)
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2017
  3. Jeremiah33

    Jeremiah33 New Member

    You are right that I'm immature, and I have pride and greed. I'm dealing with them along with many other things :). I cannot take away my belief that tongues and prophesies (a majority of them) are meaningless, inaccurate and questionable. Judge them by their fruits!
    How do (unidentifiable) tongues edify oneself? From my own experience, it may satisfy my emotion, but only for awhile. And what good is corporate tongues to the body when no one knows the contents of the tongues? Once in a while someone would interprete what we like to hear. Prophesies are common in churches. Many spoken in the name of pride, manipulation and flesh. They are very inaccurate and risky because they do not come from God. I cannot think of any reason why these are allowed in a place of worship. Does God like to see His children stumbled? More likely we help ourselves to it because it feeds our flesh.
  4. swordsman1

    swordsman1 Well-Known Member

    No, you claimed the disciples spoke a non-human language and the Holy Spirit provided a miracle of hearing in the crowd with an automatic interpretation into their native tongue. I said there is no indication in the text that the Holy Spirit did such a thing, to which you replied "Nonsense". I then asked you show me the verses. After beating around the bush you finally admitted "There are none". I'm glad we have now established there is no miracle of hearing mentioned in the passage, but rather that is something you are reading into the text.

    For 1 Cor 14:2 see post #3 in this thread.

    Why would 1 Cor 14:14-15 be incompatible with speaking a foreign language you have never learned?

    Jude 20 has nothing to do with tongues.

    How can Acts 2 be "the mysterious language of the Spirit" as you call it, when tongues is plural in Acts 2:4?

    ...yes, in situations where the congregation didn't recognize the language spoken, as was the case at Corinth.

    Acts 2 says they spoke in foreign languages. Verse 4 clearly says the disciples spoke in other languages (plural) as the Spirit enabled them. Verse 6 tells us what languages they spoke - the foreigners "heard them speak their own languages".

    I don't see ANY languages spoken by charismatics. Nor do the linguists who have studied it.

    Where does it say tongues is a "spiritual language"? I notice you are using the antiquated KJV phraseology "no man understands" to make it appear that no human would understand. Modern translations are all rendered "no one understands" (in the context of congregations).

    I was referring to the biblical description of tongues (foreign languages) not biblical practice.


    Firstly Paul's command was to the Corinthians. If tongues subsequently ceased, as I believe they did, that command obviously wouldn't apply today. If tongues was continuing I wouldn't forbid the true gift as described in scripture, but I would forbid a counterfeit.

    Why would it matter if a linguist is a Christian or a non-Christian? Both would be using the established processes of their profession to analyse the utterances to determine if they have any linguistic structure. If there is none, then it is not a language. They would both come to the same conclusion if they were doing their job properly.
  5. Marvin Knox

    Marvin Knox Senior Veteran

    There was no beating around the bush. The verses were obvious. We both have our Bibles open and can see that there isn't a particular verse that spells this out for us just as there isn't one which says very clearly that they "spoke known languages". At least I've been honest about it from my end.
    We havn't establish any such thing. Nor have we established that they spoke known languages.
    That post does not make your case.
    An Englishman praying in Japanese when only God was on the receiving end seems quite ridiculous while the Holy Spirit praying for you in a mysterious language seems less so.
    That's your opinion. Millions believe otherwise and I'm in that group.
    There were many tongues wagging. They prayed in other tongues. One person didn't pray in other tongues. We have no idea how many tongues the Holy Spirit is capable of using. If He can use several known languages, He can use several unknown languages.
    It says not such thing. It says they spoke in other tongues. It says that other people heard them speak in their own language. We've been through this before. It says what it says and no more. It's up to us to determine through comparing scripture with scripture what went on. I have come up with what I consider a superior view than yours and even most other commentators IMO.
    No of course you don't.

    They are unknown spiritual languages. It seems we've been through these things before.
    It says, my spirit prays. It also say that the Holy Spirit intercedes for us. It certainly then wouldn't be a language of the flesh. What would you prefer to call it?

    Come to think of it I know. Gibberish?
    The idea that God wasted several pages of scripture giving us examples and detailed directions for the use of tongues when they would be obsolete by the time we read them is ridiculous on the face of it IMO. Heaven and earth will pass away but His Word will never pass away. Even if it weren't so - it is incumbent on you to prove that they have ceased not me to prove that they didn't.
    If it is the Holy Spirit praying and providing messages then a spiritually dead person would have no ability to understand such concepts according to what the scriptures clearly tell us.

    That is true whether we are talking about his lack of spiritual insight or the ridiculous idea of his applying earthly principles to Spirit related things.

    Look - we could go back and forth all day. You tell me again and again what you think it says and I tell you again and again exactly what it does say.

    What you think it says does not allow for my interpretation of events as being valid. What I have proven is said by quoting the words of the Holy Spirit only allows for your interpretation and mine as well.

    When we compare all of the instances of tongues and the directions for their use in services and in prayer - yours appears to me to be inferior and even a little silly.

    Not that it matters since you believe we might as well throw out those scriptures since they've become of no use to us because of the cessation of any kind of tongues being used by the Spirit of God.

    I will try to refrain from quoting again exactly what the scriptures do say and giving my opinion of how the various scriptures meld together systematically so they will make more sense for our use in this day and age.

    You can state again and again what you want the scriptures to say about tongues - even though you don't believe it matters much for us since it doesn't apply to us.

    The bottom line IMO is this. I don't know for sure if they were all natural languages or if they were all spiritual languages or a mixture of both. I have never said that I did. I simply laid out for the OP what seems the best way to reconcile the various scriptures one to the other. It doesn't and won't effect in the slightest bit my relationship with the Holy Spirit or my practice of tongues if I found out that my best view of how it was was wrong and they were all natural languages both in Acts and in Corinithians.

    You, on the other hand, are quite sure that you know exactly how all of the scriptures concerning tongues work together. Interestingly - that doesn't change how you practice these things one bit either - for the simple reason that you don't practice these things.

    Whether the fact that you lacked the faith to believe and practice this portion of the scriptures will be seen to have effected your relationship with the Lord in this life in any way - I'm sure you'll be made aware of when you meet Him face to face.

    Of course that will be none of my business and I'll likely never know nor do I wish to know.

    You can have the last word if it's important to you.:)
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2017
  6. Hillsage

    Hillsage One for Him and Him for all Supporter

    United States
    As we all are. :amen:

    That's what we're supposed to do. Realizing no one walks in perfection upon accepting Jesus OR upon being Spirit baptized.

    It saddens me to hear that, but you do know that it is scriptural, and it may very much be like the 'Footprints in the sand' story for some.

    I have experienced corporate tongues as well as personally singing in tongues in a homegroup setting. After, I've had people come up and say they've never experienced that before. I tell them it is scriptural.

    Ephesians 5:19 addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with all your heart,
    Psalms are by God, Hymms are religious songs by man and "spiritual songs" is singing in tongues

    They are simply God's children striving to grow up. Yes, they may appear as little kids with daddy's hat and shoes on, declaring "I'm just like daddy", but we who've been around a while know better. :) IOW, 'knowledge' hasn't ceased anymore than tongues. Shoot, it hasn't even fully arrived.
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2017
  7. swordsman1

    swordsman1 Well-Known Member

    Yes it is obvious. There is no verse that says the disciples spoke in a non-human language nor is there any verse that says God performed a miracle of hearing in the crowd so that it was miraculously translated in the ears of the foreigners. That is an idea you have forced into the text. That is not exegesis (drawing out the meaning from a text), it is eisegesis - the cardinal sin of hermeneutics (imposing your own idea onto the text). I'm glad you have admitted that.

    The disciples speaking foreign languages is the plain meaning of the text. The disciples spoke in other languages (v4), and the languages they spoke were the ones the foreigners recognized (v6). No other meaning can be drawn from those words without employing the fallacy of eisegesis.

    Then you need to refute it.

    Yes it would be ridiculous, which is why Paul told the Corinthians to stop it. It would be just as ridiculous to speak a non-human language that nobody but God understood.

    Then millions have been taught falsely. No mention is made of tongues in Jude 20.

    How many heavenly languages are they? Was there a Tower of Babel event in heaven as well as on earth?

    Of course they heard them speaking their own language. How else would they recognize their own language being spoken? It says the foreigners were "hearing them speak in his own language". The disciples were SPEAKING in their native languages. It says it plainly.

    That doesn't mean it was in a special "spiritual language". It could have been a public prayer in Persian or any other foreign tongue, spoken from their spirit. No mention is made anywhere of a "spiritual language" or any non-human language. Again that is your own idea you are imposing onto the text.

    Not in any passage relating to tongues.

    Paul's letter was addressed to the Corinthians, not us. "To the church of God which is at Corinth" (1 Cor 1:2). Throughout his epistle he is dealing with problems that were specific to the Corinthian church only, not all churches. If it was addressed to all believers worldwide it would mean we are all guilty of abuse of the Lord's table, sexual immorality, creating divisive factions, taking fellow believers to court, opposing Paul's authority, etc. etc. The same applies to their gifts of tongues which they were misusing. Have you never noticed how many times Paul uses the word "you" in 1 Cor 14? He was referring to the Corinthians, not us.

    Do Paul's instruction regarding head coverings apply to women today, or was that only relevant to the culture of the time when women wore head-coverings as a symbol of submission to their husbands? Of course we can learn from the lessons Paul gave the Corinthians, but only in situations that apply to us today.

    What makes you think tongues is the Holy Spirit praying? 1 Cor 14:14 says it is "my spirit" that prays, not the Holy Spirit. If tongues was the Holy Spirit praying He would be acting contrary to Paul's inspired instructions not to speak in tongues without interpretation as happened in the Corinthian church (and in charismatic churches today, if you believe they continue). Is the Holy Spirit a sinner?

    If human spoken tongues is a language, as scripture says it is, then it would have an identifiable linguistic structure. Words have meaning. They consist of nouns, verbs, adjectives etc. When the same word is repeated elsewhere it will have the same meaning. Otherwise it would be useless as a method of communication. It would not be a language, it would be gibberish. These patterns can easily be detected by linguists, especially when an interpretation is supplied as is often the case in Pentecostal services. Their conclusion is that today's tongues are just strings of random syllables with no linguistic structure, and that anyone can produce them once they discover the technique.

    And so will you if it is proven that you did not have the gift of tongues after all, but have instead wasted thousands of hours of your life selfishly pursuing a fleshly counterfeit that does not match the NT description of the gift. Not even the genuine gift was meant to be used for selfish purposes, but like all gifts for the benefit of others.
  8. SBC

    SBC Well-Known Member

    United States

    1) Receiving - Having - Knowing " the Biblical WORDS,
    ...given one, by hearing, reading, receiving, AND BELIEVING by TRUSTING what they hear, read, receive, IS TRUE.

    2) Trust - is your decision - to Believe, all you hear, read, receive IS TRUE or NOT.

    3) IF you can NOT TRUST what you hear, read, receive - KEEP hearing, reading, receiving the Scriptures - Until you DO TRUST - or walk away and BE WITHOUT HOPE.

    4) Scripture teaches a man TO - continue with HOPE, but then you also have freewill -
    No one will force you to continue. You have to DESIRE to hear, read, receive, and continue doing so.

    5) A man who continues - in HOPE - IS a man WHO, begins being given FAITH. And faith IS a gift from GOD, from He (God) who IS Himself, FAITHFUL.

    6) Thus be patient in your HOPE, God will provide your Faith.

    7) And remember your HOPE, is equal to your EFFORT. IOW - IF you are not hearing, reading, receiving - WHY wonder IF God is giving you Faith? He gives measures of His gifts of FAITH, based on the mans efforts.

    8) Scripture IS KNOWLEDGE. Knowledge is the REVEALING of INFORMATION.

    9) You DO NOT "understand" something BEFORE you have the KNOWLEDGE of "something".

    10) You can read Scripture talk about "for example" TREES. Do you already have the KNOWLEDGE of "TREES" ? Sure you do. Do you already UNDERSTAND what a TREE is?
    Sure you do.

    11) DO you UNDERSTAND, God's UNDERSTANDING of a "TREE" ?
    Does God UNDERSTAND, a TREE is a plant? Sure He does.
    But YET, could God ALSO have ANOTHER "understanding " of a TREE?

    THIS IS THE MYSTERY - YES, God DOES have ANOTHER "understanding" of a TREE.

    So - WHERE can we READ, and find this "other" UNDERSTANDING "according to God"?

    You Can't!

    THIS IS THE MYSTERY - God's Understanding IS Spiritual. God's Understand CAN NOT be found in books written in ink, in caves archeologists unearth, in a safebox, in the Stars that an astrologist seeks, in Tarot cards, palm reading, mediums, etc.

    THE MYSTERY IS -ONLY God can GIVE a man HIS Understanding of Spiritual KNOWLEDGE in Scriptures.

    THE MYSTERY IS - God ONLY GIVES His Spiritual Understanding to a man, WHOM God has GIVEN the man, A SPIRITUAL "spirit" (which is commonly called, a man who is Born Again, by the Seed of God).

    Mankind's DILEMMA is; hearing, reading, a SMALL BIT of KNOWLEDGE in Scripture; and then wondering why He can not UNDERSTAND WHAT IT MEANS.

    A man hears a little, reads a little.....receives a little faith.
    A man who continues to hear more, read more.....receives more faith.

    A man who COMES INTO Belief and Trust in ALL that he hears, and reads.....comes into receiving FULL Faith from God - THAT FULL FAITH - is a man WHO is then prepared to -
    COMMIT His life - IN FULL - faithFULLNESS to God.

    That then is a man WHOM - God WILL given His Spiritual Understanding of the Knowledge of Scriptures.

    Your dilemma about TONGUES - is men speak among themselves in Languages that may or may not be understood.

    If a man speaks to me in Chinese about the Knowledge of God - without an "interpreter" the EFFORT is useless.

    If a man SPEAKS "aloud" TO GOD, in rambling, an unknown language, or groans - His SPEAKING "aloud" TO GOD, is of no benefit to an other, IF the man does not "interpret"
    what "his heart was Saying to God".

    God "requires" NO specific LANGUAGE to hear a man speak to Him. God KNOWS what a mans Heart is thinking, feeling, believing, saying.

    But WHAT man KNOWS another mans Hearts thoughts - 'less the man SPEAKS in a language another man understands?

    And that's all "interesting" of a man wanting others to KNOW he "speaks" TO GOD, "how he speaks" TO GOD, with what rambling and sounds, he "speaks" TO GOD....

    But me personally; I prefer MY PERSONAL conversations WITH GOD, are between Me, and My God.

    Matt 6
    [6] But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

    God Bless,
  9. brinny

    brinny everlovin' shiner of light in dark places Supporter

    @Dave-W see post #79.

    Please respond.

    Thank you kindly.
  10. joshcorn

    joshcorn Member

    Do any of you speak in tongues
  11. Hillsage

    Hillsage One for Him and Him for all Supporter

    United States
    I have, since 1972. I received the baptism of the Holy Spirit 6 months after becoming a Christian.
  12. joshcorn

    joshcorn Member

    That is great.I agree what you said about Translators.