ACLU apparently wants abortion fair to all humans in the procedure not just women??

[RocksInMyHead]

I realize they have their own motives - but the language of "person" and saying that all persons must be given respect and rights - instead of just "women" - has opened the door to consideration of "the person being killed" in that "choice" by the woman.

Considering that this is not a legal ruling and the ACLU is not a legal governing body, no, it really doesn't. It means whatever the ACLU says it means.

 

[anna ~ grace]

Oh goody - let’s ridicule the transgendered people.

Daisy, if a person were to make this statement to you about themselves ;

“I identify as African-American while having an ethnicity which was assigned European at birth.”

would you find that a valid and sensible or weird and impossible statement? Would you accept that person as Aftican-American? Would you expect Americans of predominantly west-central African ancestry whose ancestors were enslaved in the United States to accept that person as African-American?

For the sake of the example, let’s say the specific person has a Polish mother, and a Swedish father.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

Daisy, if a person were to make this statement to you about themselves ;

“I identify as African-American while having an ethnicity which was assigned European at birth.”

would you find that a valid and sensible or weird and impossible statement? Would you accept that person as Aftican-American? Would you expect Americans of predominantly west-central African ancestry whose ancestors were enslaved in the United States to accept that person as African-American?

For the sake of the example, let’s say the specific person has a Polish mother, and a Swedish father.

Whether or not you believe in the existence of transgender people is irrelevant to the topic at hand unless you run the ACLU.

Do you run the ACLU?

 

[BobRyan]

Daisy, if a person were to make this statement to you about themselves ;

“I identify as African-American while having an ethnicity which was assigned European at birth.”

would you find that a valid and sensible or weird and impossible statement? Would you accept that person as Aftican-American? Would you expect Americans of predominantly west-central African ancestry whose ancestors were enslaved in the United States to accept that person as African-American?

For the sake of the example, let’s say the specific person has a Polish mother, and a Swedish father.

This is a good point. It appeals to common sense and reason. There is a children's story titled "The Emperor's New Clothes" by Hans Christian Andersen about a king who had no clothes but nobody was allowed to "state the obvious". Seems like we are in a dystopian rerun of that now days.

Your question above appeals to logic and reason. The question is - whether logic and reason are taking a hike when it comes to certain political hot-topics where "feelings" often trump real life in PC-world.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

This is a good point. It appeals to common sense and reason. There is a children's story titled "The Emperor's New Clothes" by Hans Christian Andersen about a king who had no clothes but nobody was allowed to "state the obvious". Seems like we are in a dystopian rerun of that now days.

Your question above appeals to logic and reason. The question is - whether logic and reason are taking a hike when it comes to certain political hot-topics where "feelings" often trump real life in PC-world.

Again, your own feelings on the matter are irrelevant to the ACLU's position and opinion unless you run the ACLU.

Do you run the ACLU?

 

[BobRyan]

The emperor had no clothes -- until the cat was let out of the bag.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

The emperor had no clothes -- until the cat was let out of the bag.

I have no idea what you're trying to say here. To put things in context, this thread is the equivalent of a Hindu seeing a statement from a Christian leader about God and asking if Christians now follow Ganesha.

The fact that you believe different things and define words differently than the ACLU is fine. But it also has no bearing on statements made by the ACLU - unless you run the ACLU.

I'll ask a third time: do you run the ACLU?

 

[DaisyDay]

Daisy, if a person were to make this statement to you about themselves ;

“I identify as African-American while having an ethnicity which was assigned European at birth.”

would you find that a valid and sensible or weird and impossible statement? Would you accept that person as Aftican-American?

For the sake of the example, let’s say the specific person has a Polish mother, and a Swedish father.

It really depends on the person and whether they were sincere in their identification or if they were just snarkily trying to make a got-cha point or trying to game some system or another. I'd be curious to know more, but it doesn't really affect me one way or another.

Would you expect Americans of predominantly west-central African ancestry whose ancestors were enslaved in the United States to accept that person as African-American?

That is up to each person. Do you think every American of predominantly west-central African ancestry whose ancestors were enslaved in the United States will be exactly alike? I don't think they have a hive mind.

anna grace, what has your question got to do with ridiculing transgendered people? Do you think that both they and your hypothetical example should be ridiculed?

 

[anna ~ grace]

It really depends on the person and whether they were sincere in their identification or if they were just snarkily trying to make a got-cha point or trying to game some system or another. I'd be curious to know more, but it doesn't really affect me one way or another.

That is up to each person. Do you think every American of predominantly west-central African ancestry whose ancestors were enslaved in the United States will be exactly alike? I don't think they have a hive mind.

anna grace, what has your question got to do with ridiculing transgendered people? Do you think that both they and your hypothetical example should be ridiculed?

Ok, so you would potentially accept someone who had solely European ancestry as African-American, if that is how they felt?

 

[Belk]

Ok, so you would potentially accept someone who had solely European ancestry as African-American, if that is how they felt?

Depends. Do actual studies show they have brains that align with African-American characteristics and medical experts stating the best way to deal with it is to treat them as African-American?

 

[anna ~ grace]

Depends. Do actual studies show they have brains that align with African-American characteristics and medical experts stating the best way to deal with it is to treat them as African-American?

Regardless of whether or not studies indicate anything one way or the other, and regardless of whether medical experts (who used to freely classify homosexuality as a mental illness) state one thing or the other…

would you, Belk, accept someone of European ancestry on both sides as African-American if this is how they described themselves, self-identified, and claimed to truly and sincerely feel. They didn’t feel half Swedish and half Polish. They never have. They have always felt that deep down inside, truly, they were meant to be Black. This how they feel. They long to be African-American, and claim that they will continue to feel miserable and unfulfilled until their outward appearance matches who they feel they are or were meant to be on the inside.

Would you recognize that person as African-American, if you had no reason to suspect that they were insincere, or pulling your leg?

 

[Belk]

Regardless of whether or not studies indicate anything one way or the other, and regardless of whether medical experts (who used to freely classify homosexuality as a mental illness) state one thing or the other…

would you, Belk, accept someone of European ancestry on both sides as African-American if this is how they described themselves, self-identified, and claimed to truly and sincerely feel. They didn’t feel half Swedish and half Polish. They never have. They have always felt that deep down inside, truly, they were meant to be Black. This how they feel. They long to be African-American, and claim that they will continue to feel miserable and unfulfilled until their outward appearance matches who they feel they are or were meant to be on the inside.

Would you recognize that person as African-American, if you had no reason to suspect that they were insincere, or pulling your leg?

No, not regardless. This is the state of what you are trying to compare it to. You are claiming it is only a matter of personal choice when actual evidence shows this to not be the case. You are trying to make an unfair comparison in order to dismiss what they are actually going through.

But to answer your question, yes. It costs me nothing to recognize what they feel they are going through.

 

[anna ~ grace]

No, not regardless. This is the state of what you are trying to compare it to. You are claiming it is only a matter of personal choice when actual evidence shows this to not be the case. You are trying to make an unfair comparison in order to dismiss what they are actually going through.

But to answer your question, yes. It costs me nothing to recognize what they feel they are going through.

Alright, so you would in fact acknowledge a person of wholly European ancestry as African-American if that is what they told you they were sincerely feeling. That’s all I wanted to know. Thanks!

 

[DaisyDay]

Ok, so you would potentially accept someone who had solely European ancestry as African-American, if that is how they felt?

Potentially. I don't see how their self-identification affects me one way or another. I might be idly curious as to how this identification came about, how it manifests, but it is not really any of my business.

Again, what has your question got to do with ridiculing transgendered people? Do you think that both they and your hypothetical example should be ridiculed?

I understand the urge to ridicule what you don't understand, but I don't agree with it.

 

[DaisyDay]

Alright, so you would in fact acknowledge a person of wholly European ancestry as African-American if that is what they told you they were sincerely feeling. That’s all I wanted to know. Thanks!

You are dismissing what Belk actually said. You are not listening and not hearing.

 

[Ken-1122]

Depends. Do actual studies show they have brains that align with African-American characteristics

Oh do black people have different brains than white people now? If so, how are they different, and does this make black people better at some things or worse at some things.

 

[grasping the after wind]

Sure they can. States can define homicide the way they like.

So can I. Anyone or any agency is perfectly capable of defining anything in any way that pleases them. But shouldn't I and those States and anyone do so in a manner that is logical and reasonable rather than a way that suits a particular interest group, political goal or ideology in direct contradiction to logic and reason? Aren't I, States and everyone morally responsible to define things in the most reasonable and logical way rather than in some way that gets us something we want, takes something from someone else we don't want them to have or hides from others something we don't want them to see?

 

[grasping the after wind]

No, they're being inclusive of trans individuals who may identify as male while still possessing a fully functional uterus.

They are very invested in enabling a delusion then?

 

[Yttrium]

Aren't I, States and everyone morally responsible to define things in the most reasonable and logical way rather than in some way that gets us something we want, takes something from someone else we don't want them to have or hides from others something we don't want them to see?

Well, no, not really. The problem is that we need words that are used for legal purposes, and laws can vary from state to state. Each state needs to make definitions for words that clarify their laws. Making definitions uniform would infringe heavily on states' rights.

So the nouns "person" and "human" are not synonymous.

 

[Belk]

Oh do black people have different brains than white people now? If so, how are they different, and does this make black people better at some things or worse at some things.

Beats me, but transgender people have brain characteristics the opposite of their physical sex. That was the point, to show that the comparison is fallacious.